Results 1 to 48 of 48

Thread: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

  1. #1
    JD
    JD is offline
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    36

    $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Heres an interesting one. Lets say (hypothetically of course!) you had $2000 - $2500 to spend on a new coffee machine. What would you go for?

    In addition... all things being equal... could your average punter recognise the difference between a shot from a Silvia and one from a $2000 + machine?

    Id love to know your thoughts.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    70

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    JD,

    I just became the proud owner of a Diadema Junior :D I was facing a similar choice, upgrading from a Krups Novo :-[

    Three days on and I am producing reasonable espresso and my average shot on the Diadema is on par with the best I ever pulled from the Krups!

    Steaming milk? Ill keep you informed as Im still coming to grips with a 20sec window to attempt microfoam as opposed to the old 2 minute routine >:(

    Just my 2 cents worth as a recent convert from a basic machine to something much more special ;)

    James

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    485

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Im getting married in June and my Mother in law has very generously offerred to buy my wife and I an espresso machine in the above mentioned price bracket. The finalists for me were the Diadema Junior and the Giotto Premium. I like the idea of the Expobar Brewtus but not yet available in Australia and if it was, I dare say it would be more like $3000.
    The Diadema Junior is pretty much locked in atm.
    I dont think the average punter could tell the difference between a shot on the Silvia and a shot pulled on the Diadema or Giotto. A CoffeeSnob maybe, average punter no :)
    After having given up in the past, Ive recently taken up steaming milk in an attempt to pour some latte art. One thing is for sure, I wont miss the pour espresso, heat up, steam routine of a non HX machine.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    18

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I personally went for the Giotto (it was that or the La Scala Butterfly for me) and have been really happy after the first 6 weeks. Was using a Silvia prior to this and am really happy with the upgrade. The Giotto is a lot easier and more convenient to use. The steaming ability is amazing, the only thing being that you need to be pretty good with your technique as it is so quick.
    Id have to agree with what I was told, that it really comes down to personal preference at this price range. Go with a machine which has a good reputation, has good customer support and most importantly (in my opinion) you love!
    Good luck, Im sure youll be really happy ;D when you get the machine.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    485

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Was anybody else put off by the fixed steam wand on the La Scala?
    Probably not a deal breaker to most people, but not having the luxury of using any of the machines in person, I was guessing the steam arm may have become an issue. Things like giving the wand a quick flush, Id want to have the wand over the drip tray and then swivel it out to steam. Other than that the La Scala has excellent specifications.
    Might just be me... :-/

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    70

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Sharkboy,

    I second your thoughts....I was VERY interested in the La Scala but ultimately didnt want a Lever machine - the fixed steam arm on this and another machine I looked at - I think it was the San Remo ??? - was definately an issue to me personally. I spent 2 years placing a cloth/jug under my fixed Krups steam wand and for the type of money that a HX machine commands, I was not going to suffer the same inconvenience 8)

    James

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    485

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    The weird thing was I actually emailed someone at the La Scala factory somewhere in Italy and the reason given for the stationary steam arm was due to safety concerns...? Even my Gaggias steam wand swivels. Just seems odd.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    138

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I have found the swivel steam wand to be really convinient. *But at this price range, availability of spare parts, support and looks will be the deciding factors.

    Just out of interest, AJzCafe, why did you not go for a lever machine?

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    70

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Hey all,

    I drink more milk-based coffee than espresso and I the other 2 machines I have owned, Russell Hobbs and Krups :-[ both required me to flick a switch to brew and then again to stop.

    Not really a comprehensive answer, but I wanted that same convenience from my new machine - I did want some control as oppsed to a fully auto control panel, but I didnt think much more of pulling the lever than a novelty in itself. No disrespect intended! :o

    James

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    138

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Perhaps I might have misunderstood. There is a lever version of the Diadema, which when u flick it down, activates the preinfusion, and then makes the shot.

    The BFC junior that I have, is just a rocker switch with the solenoid valve. I flick it and it pumps.

    We are not talking about those manual lever operated machines are we? 8)

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    42

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Would personally go for the Elektra Microcasa, level pull hx machine, think you can get it on ebay at this price range.

  12. #12
    cd
    cd is offline
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    48

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I bought the Diadema Junior lever in Jan ang couldnt be happier. It was probably extravagant for a first machine but I was after something that I would enjoy using, was easy to operate and that I wouldnt want or need to upgrade any time soon.

    I have found it to be a joy to use and easy to get very good results from both in regards to esspresso and milk.

    My one word of advice - find a good dealer that will let you have a demo of the machines before you make up your mind - a truly invaluable exercise.

    Cheers,

    Rob.


  13. #13
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    101

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Regarding the Elektra HX machine, this is a non-lever machine. The elecktra microcasa is a manual lever machine like the Pavoni lever machines but with a spring in the group. In Australia both machines are absurdly overpriced. The Elektra semiautomatica HX machines retails for over $AUS3,000, whereas in the USA it sells for around $US1200. The microcasa lever sells for around $AUS2000 here, and around $US800 over there. So, in short, Elektra are not really worth it unless you are willing to pay a huge premium for style.

    It seem a lots of people here like the Diadema *Junior machine. I must say they look great on the net and they have good reviews (in the USA they sell under La Valentina), plus the likes of Fresh Coffee sells them, and Pinot used to sell them. Id love to know where to see one in the flesh and get it demonstated. In particular Id like to know how they compare with the Giotto premium, which I have seen, and can say it looks great. Plus it has rave reviews.

    The other set of machines that are in this class, but nobody here seems to talk about are the Isomacs. Ive seen these too, and they also look pretty flash, though their reviews arent quite up there with the Giotto and Diadema/La Valentina. One can get a Isomac Millenium, or Tea for around the $2,200 mark in Sydney.

    Oh yeah, and if one has lots of room in the kitchen, one can get a commerical machine for around the $2,000 mark. For example, Mocapan have the Rancilio epoca on sale at an amazing $1.995. This machine is the full quid, much more machine than Giotto in every respect. There are also lots of other commerical machines, of similar quality for the same money. But they are big, and probably too much in every respect for the home user. But they are great machines and much better value than Giotto, Diadema, Isomacs etc. I for one, though, dont have the space, plus prefer the aesthetics of the chrome boxes, and thats probably what I will end up with when I make up my mind which to get (plus get permission from my partner to trade up from a perfectly useable Pavoni).

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    485

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    The closest thing to a reason for not getting the Giotto Ive come up with, and it is a small one, was a recommendation from a guy that repairs commercial and domestic espresso machines. He mentioned that he had seen several Giotto Premiums that had a minor problem with the water level sensor in the reservoir. I cant remember the exact details but something about the sensor slightly seizing due to a build up of limescale(?). Anyway it wasnt a big problem but when splitting hairs any reason will do :)

    Please Giotto owners out there dont get angry at my comments :) Just passing on information that might prove useful... or not?

  15. #15
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I dont know about down there, but over here in the US you can pick up a used 2-group commercial HX machine for well under $1,000. If you have the space and want a top quality machine you might look at going the used route. Personally Id go for one of the semi-automatic types with as little electronics on it as possible. Theres little on them to break and if something does break its an easy and relatively cheap repair. I bought a Cimbali M28 2-group and did a *complete rebuild on it for about $50US. Given what these machines are designed to do I figure itll last me the rest of my life and quite possibly my kids life as well with an occassional gasket/washer being replaced.

    As soon as you get into the newer automatics electronics are added to the machine and this seems to be their weak point. Given the high temp and humidity conditions in these machines its no surpirse that circuit boards go out on them on a fairly regular basis. And given that theyre propriatary its also no surprise that they want big bucks for a replacement part. Theres no circuit boards in the older style manual/semi-automatic machines. The most complex electronic component in them are switches and relays.

    For a third of the price youre looking at you could have a totally rebuilt top-of-the-line 2-group commercial HX machine that will last you the rest of your life.

    Java "Something to consider" phile

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1113217910/0#14 date=1113419608
    I dont know about down there, but over here in the US you can pick up a used 2-group commercial HX machine for well under $1,000. *If you have the space
    That last bit is the most relevent part down here. The 2 group commercials are relatively cheap but they are HUGE. You need a REALLY BIG kitchen if a 2 group machine is not to dominate it. Also heat up time is quite long so youre best leaving them on 24/7 or all day, at least.

    Greg

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Or set it up someplace other than the kitchen. :) Perhaps out in the livingroom for display purposes as well as ease of access and a gathering point for those espresso parties. :D

    I leave my 2-group on 24/7 and as best as I can figure it costs me about $20US a month in electricity.

    If space is the determining factor then another option would be a used commercial single group. While they generally go for more than a 2-group I see them pretty frequently here for under $1,000.

    Java "So many choices, so little space" phile

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    24

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Hi all,

    Since were on this topic, does anyone have an opinion on the Bezzera range of machines (BZ99, BZ02S and BZ02SDE Volumetric)? These machines seem to be under the radar in terms of ownership, as I have not seen much at all in Aus in the way of reviews or even comments. I have been quoted for the 99 at $1850 and the 02S for $1950 (both exactly the same internally, it is only the external shape that is different), so the price is definately attractive.

    As I understand it, these have a smaller HX boiler at 1.7L (which is still bigger than the Opera) compared to other machines that I have seen up here in Brisbane (which aint too much BTW). But for the demo that I have seen they really do brew and steam very well (for my Breville and Sunbeam affected eyes anyway...).

    Any feedback???

    Hooroo gang,

    Ken

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    70

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Ken,

    The other machine I was seriously considering was the BZ02s - but after having a look at one in Melbourne, I went with the Diadema. I was on a strict budget myself, but after the way my wife saw me looking at the Diadema, she slapped me :o and then allowed me to spend the extra $300......

    FC sells both units, so perhaps I could suggest a more in depth discussion with him? Helped me to make my decision greatly!

    Regards,

    James

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    24

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Hello James,

    Two quick questions - What didnt you like about the Bezzera (or was the Diadema just too good overall), and do you (or anyone else for that matter) know if the Diadema is in Brisbane at all.

    The Dir of Finances loves the look of the Bezzera 02S (personlly I like the commercial shape of the 99) and so she would of course like to see it in the flesh before committing a couple of big wads of dosh...

    Ken.

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    309

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I bought an ECM Giotto Classic a couple of years ago and have been extremely happy with it.

    Unlike most (all?) other HX machines in this class the boiler is horizontal which gives me more heat in the cup tray on top. Some of the machines in this price bracket have a slightly smaller boiler which can affect temperature stability.

    I disagree with the comparison between Silvia and Giotto. I owened a Silvia before the Giotto and although I could pull a good cup on the Silvia it was much harder to be consistent and my Giotto can produces a much better cup on average. Silvia has very good steam pressure but can only produce a relatively small amount. My Giotto can produce flat whites all day.

    The steam arm on the newer Giotto Premium swivels nicely and is double chambered so you get far less milk stuck on the shaft as it is much cooler on the outside.

    Any of the E61 machines is a good buy but bear in mind that the difference in price between brands is a least partly due to some of the features I mention here.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    169

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Been down this same path and decided on the Diadema splendor. The fact that it is a prosumer machine, basically a down scaled commercial machine with fantastic asthetics, the polished case sitting on my Granite bench top beside the basalt (my kitchen is a bit of a geology lesson) splashback will be fantastic. The olde worlde styling, exposed group lack of buttons (uses a lever to activate the group) all combine to make the xtra money worthwhile. How does the saying go - a work of art that works. Now just waiting for the settlement on my other house to go through.

  23. #23
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    101

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Boiler size.

    Besides taking time to get the machine up to the correct heat, what difference does this make to temperature stability once the machine is warm?

    Wired suggests that Giottos larger boiler (1.8 litres) makes it more stable. For infomrations sake, the Bezzeras have a 1.5L boiler, the Isomacs 1.4L and the Diademas (1.2 or 1.3L). Does this mean that the Diademas are less temperature stable? Given the fact that so many people on this noticboard like them, I doubt it. But I am just enquiring.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1113217910/15#16 date=1113442616
    Or set it up someplace other than the kitchen. * :) *Perhaps out in the livingroom for display purposes as well as ease of access and a gathering point for those espresso parties. * :D
    A friend of mine has done that. A fully plumbed in 2 grouper with a MD50 grinder in his HT room!! :o

    Quote Originally Posted by chopinhauer link=1113217910/15#22 date=1113451720
    Wired suggests that Giottos larger boiler (1.8 litres) makes it more stable. For infomrations sake, the Bezzeras have a 1.5L boiler, the Isomacs 1.4L and the Diademas (1.2 or 1.3L). Does this mean that the Diademas are less temperature stable? Given the fact that so many people on this noticboard like them, I doubt it. But I am just enquiring.
    Everything being equal, a larger boiler will give more thermal stability but there are so many variables in machine design that the in shot stability difference will be dominated by other factors. Shot to shot stability will favour larger boilered machines but things like group design and plumbling layout will also have contributions.

    Greg

  25. #25
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Remember, half that boiler is steam. The larger boiler size also gives you more steaming ability.

    In the size range youre talking about (1.2l-1.8l) if youre doing just espressos they might be able to do shot after shot. If youre doing lattes/capps they will most likely not be able to do continous high duty. That is the primary difference between prosumer and commercial machines, the ability to do continous pulls and frothing with no recovery time needed.

    Of course this is all generic information specific to no system and your milage may vary depending on the model and your driving habits. ;D Generally speaking the larger the boiler and the more massive the grouphead the better off you are. Theres a reason the high-end 2-group commercial machines use a 10l or even 12l boiler and a grouphead with 8kg of brass in it. ;D ;D ;D

    Another thing to keep in mind is the ease of use of the different grouphead models. The E61 is considered a very forgiving grouphead while the one used on Cimbalis are very unforgiving and will show up any lack of proper preparation of the puck. E61s also require more flushing than the Cimbalis to bring the head to proper temp. It is easier to produce a drinkable cup on an E61 than on a Cimbali, but if you put more time into perfecting your technique the Cimbali will pull great shots with far more frequency than the E61 will. While these comments apply specificly to the E61 and the Cimbali grouphead they hold true as a general rule for prosumer vs commercial machines.

    Java "A few more things to consider" phile

  26. #26
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    101

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Hey Javaphile,

    Would your comments apply to say, a Bezzera BZ99 (equivalent to the Pasquini Livia). That is to say, can one pull better coffees on this machine than the E-61 machines, so long, of course, as one has good technique?

  27. #27
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by chopinhauer link=1113217910/15#25 date=1113476227
    Hey Javaphile,

    Would your comments apply to say, a Bezzera BZ99 (equivalent to the Pasquini Livia). That is to say, can one pull better coffees on this machine than the E-61 machines, so long, of course, as one has good technique?
    Hhhmmm...Im afraid I dont know anything about that machine in particular but as I understand it the Livia is a prosumer machine and not a commercial machine so it would be in roughly the same catagory as the other prosumer machines using the E-61 grouphead. You can find E-61s on low end commercial units. Many of the smaller espresso machine manufacturers still use the E-61 design as its such a forgiving grouphead. However Im not aware of any of the higher end machines using it. The E-61 is known to run hot and requires a pretty complex flushing regimen to brew consistantly at the proper temp.

    In the end if youre willing to work on your technique to perfect a consistantly repeatable process and you learn your machine well enough any prosumer or commercial machine can produce a great pull.

    Java "Always looking for that God Shot phile

  28. #28
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I love my Giotto at home...way sexy too *;D. Sensational espresso and Ive found a 1.1 bar sweet spot for milk texture...Yes- they are slightly more pricey than some HX machines but Im glad I spent the extra bucks- shall we call them the Charlize T of machines? *:o....The bonus of a good prosumer machine at home it that the boilers are not too big...I can get a good morning heart-starter made with a 10 min warm up time....Re the flushing routine, Ive never found running 1/2 cup of water through the group head before I pull the first shot to be too complex...

    Am sure that there wont be another attack up upgraditis for a long, long time *;)

    Chris

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1113217910/15#24 date=1113474105
    *The E61 is considered a very forgiving grouphead while the one used on Cimbalis are very unforgiving and will show up any lack of proper preparation of the puck. *E61s also require more flushing than the Cimbalis to bring the head to proper temp. *It is easier to produce a drinkable cup on an E61 than on a Cimbali, but if you put more time into perfecting your technique the Cimbali will pull great shots with far more frequency than the E61 will. *While these comments apply specificly to the E61 and the Cimbali grouphead they hold true as a general rule for prosumer vs commercial machines.
    Why do you say this? Is it the temperature hump that the Cimbalis (and perhaps other unheated groupheads) are supposed to have which allows for better coffee but more difficult extractions? This goes against everything that Schomer says about flat shot profiles.

    Greg

  30. #30
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaanage link=1113217910/15#28 date=1113795998
    Why do you say this? Is it the temperature hump that the Cimbalis (and perhaps other unheated groupheads) are supposed to have which allows for better coffee but more difficult extractions? This goes against everything that Schomer says about flat shot profiles.

    Greg

    Hey Greg,

    Heres a link to a review of the Cimbali Junior with many other links on that page relating to pros and cons of various designs and machines.

    http://www.home-barista.com/junior-buyers-guide.html

    Ive seen similiar sentiments echoed elsewhere but this site brings together many different areas very nicely I thought, and seems to do it in about as impartial a manner as Ive seen.

    Enjoy! :)

    Java "Hhhmmmm....Cimbali!" phile

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Good page - Dan is a very thorough guy.
    After reading it, though. It seems to me that the preinfusion may be a difference between the E61 and LaCimbali type groups in terms of ease of use. The difference in getting expetional shots is in the HX vs boiler size which simply is straight thermal inertia of the system. Basically, an E61 group commercial machine should be as good as a La Cimbali but even easier to use so a commercial Faema E61 may be the ultimate HX machine. Dual boiler is still a lot simpler from a user perspective, though.

    Greg

  32. #32
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    One of the wonderful things about the world of espresso is that theres so many different aspects to it that the perfect machine varies dramatically one person to another. I had a laugh The debate over what is the perfect espresso machine has been going on for a long time, and Im sure will be going on long after were both pushing up daisies. ;D ;D ;D

    Java "I want Gods espresso machine!" phile

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Yep, ruler flat vs L sloped vs humped temp profiles, preinfusion cycles, rotary vs vibe pump (vs manual lever), extraction pressures... What else can we add? ;)

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    327

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Kaanage what about adding "Practicality"?
    ;)
    FB

  35. #35
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Fineness of the grind, consistancy of the grind, hardness of the tamp, concave or flat tamper, and probably most importantly, the thickness of ones wallet and the willingness of ones Significant other to put up with our madness!! ;D

    Java "Wishing his wallet were thicker" phile

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    water quality, depth/diameter of basket...

    Beans come in somewhere, dont they? :P

  37. #37
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    16,844
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    ...the thickness of ones wallet and the willingness of ones Significant other to put up with our madness
    ...the willingness to put up with our madness is in direct relationship to the thickness of wallet spent on "our toys" which is proportional to the amount you are expected to splurge on her next birthday. ;)

    (Unless of course you can justify buying her the toy as a present, thus saving you spending double.)

    :o

  38. #38
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,667

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Freeman link=1113217910/30#36 date=1113837421

    ...the willingness to put up with our madness is in direct relationship to the thickness of wallet spent on "our toys" which is proportional to the amount you are expected to splurge on her next birthday. ;)

    (Unless of course you can justify buying her the toy as a present, thus saving you spending double.)

    :o

    If you can convince her that your new toy is actually the perfect present for her then you should get the Salesman of the Year award!! ;D ;D ;D

    Java "Hhhmmm...New toys are good to have!" phile

  39. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sandringham NSW
    Posts
    134

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    On the $2-2.5 k machines.
    For any interested parties I am open to doing a demo/comparison of the Diadema Junior or Splendor v. Giotto. These machines are all lever operated.
    To me they are all excellent machines and the end choice would come down to the purchaser. As mentioned in previous posts, I would be happy to have either one on my kitchen bench. They both make excellent espresso and do a pretty good job at the milk texturing.

    JD you said:
    "In addition... all things being equal... could your average punter recognise the difference between a shot from a Silvia and one from a $2000 + machine?"

    In a side by side comparison using the standard basket that comes with the Silvia and the basket that come with say, the Diadema or Giotto, then the average punter looking at the pour would see a difference between the machines.
    The Silvia does a pretty awsome job for its price. I always enjoy using her. I actually used the Silvia instead of my commercial machine over the weekend to make my shots.

    However, when you step up to the $2k mark you would expect a lot more. And I believe you do get it. The extraction on the Diadema or Giotto is different to the Silvia.
    I have done the side by side comparison a number of times. Using the same bean, grinder, dosing and tamping method. Although the Silvia extraction is excellent, in comparison it is a little thinner and not as full in body. The crema is usually also a little lighter. This difference is also reflected in the taste.

    John

  40. #40
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    101

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Hey Pinot,

    Id be VERY interested in seeing the Diadema Junior Lever versus Giotto Premium comparison as these are the two machines I am most interested in stepping up to.

    For me, the catch is timing, since I wouldnt be able to do it before May 3.




  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sandringham NSW
    Posts
    134

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    C
    May is not a problem.
    Give me a call when you are ready to purchase and we can set up a time.
    John

  42. #42
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    101

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Thanks Pinot,
    Looking forward to seeing the two machines in action side by side. Ill contact you in early May.
    Robert

  43. #43
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    15

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Pinot,
    re: side by side comparison of Silvia v E61 machine WRT shot quality
    You mentioned that to tell the difference you should use the baskets that come with the machines. In an articale by Alan Frew (http://www.coffeegeek.com/opinions/alanfrew/05-24-2003) an argument is put forward that the difference between expensive machines and cheap machines comes down almost entirely to the basket size (when considering shot quality alone) - that is, if you put the larger basket in the Silvia, its difficult to distinguish between the machines. I understand that there are plenty of other reasons to get an expensive machine, but I would be interested to get your take on this particular aspect.
    What do you think? If you used identical baskets - could you tell the difference?

  44. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    439

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    IME, ease of use is the big advantage of the prosumer (or semi-commercial as one poster insists) machines vs the dual purpose boiler ones since they are more temp stable. This makes it easier to get that best shot out of the machines (and the commercial HX machines have a similar but lesser advantage over their prosumer brethren).

    Greg

  45. #45
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    15

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    kanaage,
    Good point. Another reason why I would be tempted to buy an HX machine is that I would like to cut down on the time taken to make a milk-based drink.
    I have a Silvia, and I find it great - although there is still some variability in quality which *could* come down to temperature. I am afraid to say that it is probably more likely to (gasp) human error! I have never used an HX, so I cant comment.
    I must say though - I am still keen to see what some people have to say about the basket size. Is temperature variability minimal when considered next to the basket size issue between Silivas and "prosumers"?


  46. #46
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Could the average punter, No. Could an expert yes.

    I like the Cimbali or Faema. Never pay RRP.

    Dill



  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    1,072

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    I would never buy a machine without having a good look under the bonnet!

    Somebody told me. I dont know if it is true or not, but that the Giotto uses teflon tubing internally. I would find this hard to believe mind you as anything under pressure, especially with steam, needs to be copper for safety reasons. it is ok with cold water lines and air lines.

    I like Alan Frews approach. He is like me, he wants to know what the machine is made of under the bonnet. He dissected the Butterfly (as it were) and I was impressed with the insides of the machine. If you get a good machine like this and good service backup, you cant go wrong.

    If you are spending that much you could get something brand new like the Bezzera BZ-35 with a rotary pump. I have the BZ-40 which has the bigger 3.4L boiler. The BZ-40 sells for about $3190 full retail.

    I personally go for practicality. ie plumbe in for convenience. Space under the machine for cleaning spills and keeping the bench clean. Plenty of room on top for cups etc.

    I have just got my second hand Bezzera up and running so Im still finding my feet. Strangely the thing I like most is just the temperature profile. You dont have to purge all the time to keep the temperature down. High temperature will ruin a shot of coffee totally.

    Grant

  48. #48
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    6

    Re: $2000 - $2500... what would you choose?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    after much research into every model i could find at around that price range, (and the 9600 which was great value for money), i narrowed it down to two. the giotto or the diadema, but in the end, the look of the giotto edged the decision.

    very happy so far despite the niggling annoyances i have with it. i think if you buy a machine at that price the performance is going to be very similar across the board and it all comes down to your, (or in my case, the WIFES), personal preference based on aesthetics.

    .



Similar Threads

  1. What $2500-$3000 traditional is recommended?
    By headingwest in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 1st December 2011, 11:52 AM
  2. Too many to choose from
    By JBetts in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 8th September 2008, 08:05 PM
  3. Good Combo under $2500
    By melinda in forum Brewing Equipment (non-machine specific)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 15th May 2008, 11:34 PM
  4. Help to choose between
    By spacer in forum Brewing Equipment (non-machine specific)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 20th March 2008, 09:25 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •