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Thread: Recommendations on Portafilter

  1. #1
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    Recommendations on Portafilter

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Does anyone have any ideas?

    I have a Rancilio Silvia. The portafilter is not as nice and heavy as the one on the Gaggia Classic I just sold. Evidently the Gaggia one weighs about a pound. I liked the deeper baskets on the classic as well.

    I thought about a naked portafilter but then Im a clean living sort of person and my wife hates it even when Im naked.

    :)

    Grant

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Get a commercial rancilio portafilter from mocopan or another rancilio dealer. These are much heavier than the one that you may have got with Silvia, although I had heard all Silvias for the last year or so came standard with the commercial pf. Cost should be less than $50

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    A)

    Its probable that any extra weight in the group handle supplied with the Gaggia is actually due to the thick, extra long metal shank that the black plastic handle fits over, rather than any extra thickness or weight in the "group cup" itself, which is the area that the coffee filter sits in.

    You would be wasting your time and money if you were to be chasing an increase in quality of brew by using a heavier group handle assembly, particularly as there are other more important variables to worry about from a technical point of view;


    B)

    you would not of course be wasting your time and money if it is simply a personal desire of yours to have a heavier group handle than the standard supplied with the machine. In which case why not have 2 of them, one each for the single and double filters, as supplied with commercial machines, a great convenience for serious use of the machine.

    C)

    Anyone that sells a brand new group handle for $50.00 (particularly rancilio brand ) is selling it at below cost. Good used condition group handles sell for more than that, plus GST.

    D)

    I dont consider it important but am interested from a purely academic point of view to check the difference in weight between a silvia VS rancilio regular commecial group handle ***with a scale*** and report back, because a couple of weeks ago when I did in fact have one of each in my hands they did not feel significantly different...should have put them on the scale then! Certainly there is a real difference between the coffee outlets screwed to the bottom of the group cup, with the outlets on the silvia being smaller...but...the overall size of the commercial group handle is actually significantly smaller than the that of the Silvia... and this could just be due to the shorter length of the black plastic handle and the shank that it fits over....?????!

    The question is I guess, is any weight difference between the silvia VS the regular commercial jobbie, going to be **significant** and if so what does this mean...realistically.

    Anyone that has to have one (a group handle assembly off a commercial rancilio machine)...my company has atleast 4 used ones in spares that the boss might sell off but please...dont use the private message service in this site as I dont check it much...send a regular email where we get to keep copies of what we wrote to eachother for future reference!

    And also for academic reference, think I will weigh the regular commercial Gaggia group handle as well.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Hi

    The portafilter on my Silvia weighs 600grams so my impression that it is lighter than the Classic is probably wrong.

    What I would like are the La Cimbali portafilter design (they wont fit the Silvia though) where there is a 15 degree angle in the handle so when you put them flat on the bench the top of the portafilter lies perfectly horizontal. Yes, it would be good too to have a single and a double portafilter complete with the one outlet for the single and the double outlet for the double. It all makes sense doesnt it.

    If you have an idea where I can order one let me know.

    Thanks,
    Grant

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Here ya go Wattgn, if none of our sponsers has what youre looking for heres a site I ran accross in my waunderings:

    http://www.coffeeparts.com.au/cim/cim1.html

    Java "Loves his Cimbali" phile

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Thanks Java but though I like the design of the La Cimbali, they dont fit the Silvia. I tried one from the Cimbali while at the shop on the Silvia.

    There are a number on the market that probably do fit though. The Cimbali ones are 58mm but the lugs dont fit.

    Thanks anyway,
    Grant

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1117709628/0#2 date=1117851054
    Anyone that sells a brand new group handle for $50.00 (particularly rancilio brand ) is selling it at below cost. Good used condition group handles sell for more than that, plus GST.
    It seemed a good price to me thats why I bought one, cost from mocopan was $34 plus gst. Im not the only one, theres a thread about it here
    http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/worldregional/australasia/57189 maybe it was a mistake, I know Coffeeparts were selling a non genuine one for nearly twice as much.

    The same thread also mentions the Silvia PF weighs 400grams vs 630grams for the commercial version. I sold my Silvia so cant confirm but this sounds about right from memory.

    I recall the Silvia pfs handle could actually bend quite a bit when locking it into place if I had the basket too full or when the group gasket was on the way out and thius needed to be overtightened to stop leaks. The commercial version was much more solid

  8. #8
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1117709628/0#5 date=1117870011
    Thanks Java but though I like the design of the La Cimbali, they dont fit the Silvia. I tried one from the Cimbali while at the shop on the Silvia.

    There are a number on the market that probably do fit though. The Cimbali ones are 58mm but the lugs dont fit.

    Thanks anyway,
    Grant
    Oops, thats what I get for staying up for 2 days straight! I had a laugh I misread your post and thought you were looking for a source for the Cimbali portafilter. :-[

    Java "Oops!" phile

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Grant,

    very few group handle assemblies have an angled group cup and these are the ones that will be least likely to fit silvia OR, are the ones that are most likely to be prohibitive due to cost.

    The one that comes most easily to mind as a type that might fit OK is the angled assembly as used on the more "up market" Elektra models, but check cost.

    Otherwise, your best bet for a "regular" shaped assembly is to go with rancilios own commercial type because you know even before ordering that it will fit, whilst to order anything else is a gamble.

    In your first post you mentioned you liked the deeper filters in the Classic, well you can fit / use generic commercial deep filters with your Silvia!

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Its OK I have thought about it.

    The portafilter that comes with my Silivia is obviously the commercial one and is very sold.

    The 15 degree angle is a good design but really doesnt make much difference at the end of the day.

    Thanks,
    Grant

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Isnt it the La Marzocco (58mm) handles that are angled?

    http://www.coffeeparts.com.au/mar/mar1.html

    FC
    while were talking about portafilters (Diadema), are the spouts held on with something like loctite?
    They seem really hard to unscrew.


    -Stephen-

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    I have heard someone else mention the marzocco handles as being compatible with the Silvia. It isnt just the diameter but the lugs in the side that determine fit. I might just check with them about that. It costs $75 + $12 for the tip plus GST and freight on top of that so it aint cheap (I checked on the website).

    Thanks for that.

    Grant

  13. #13
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Ive read that the angled handle on the portafilter is there for ergonomic reasons, to help avoid repetitive motion injuries, with many other companies now following Cimbalis lead.

    Java "Locks another portafilter into place for a refill" phile

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Stephen,

    yes they are loctited, otherwise the spouts go around and end up in a position (at the end of the thread) that does not line up with the position of cups on the drip tray. This is not just for your machine but for almost all on the market.

    The spouts generally are never removed except in extenuating circumstances, because the build up of rubbish inside is cleaned out as with the rest of the assembly when it is submerged in espresso machine cleaner from time to time. When you submerge, the cleaning solution must not be deep enough to soak into the interface between the group cup and the plastic handle or the connecting internal thread will corrode and "weld" itself into the group cup, rendering the plastic handle unable to be removed if replacement becomes necessary...in which case you then buy a compete new assembly, or spend an hour in the workshop with angle grinder, drill & thread tap!

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Thanks FC.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Thanks to you also Mal ;)

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1117709628/0#13 date=1117975610
    Stephen,

    yes they are loctited, otherwise the spouts go around and end up in a position (at the end of the thread) that does not line up with the position of cups on the drip tray. This is not just for your machine but for almost all on the market.

    Regardz,
    FC.
    Hi,

    Actually, there is a simple and easy way around this. If you go to Repco or Auto One, eg you can buy a packet of 3/8" Neoprene O Rings for a couple of dollars and put one or two on the PF threaded section before refitting the Spout. All you need to do then is to tighten the spout up against the O Ring(s) until the correct orientation is achieved. Once on, they will not loosen and fall off as the tension against the O Ring(s) keeps them tight.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    I used a bit of alfoil in the threads to do the same thing.

    As for the weight of the Gaggia PF being upped by the shank, while this may not be as directly coupled to the group thermal inertia as when the brass is around the basket, it is still a heat sink directly connected to the basket region so it does help. That said, it shouldnt make much difference with the std Sylvia PF if you arent taking ages for dose/tamp.

    Greg

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Hi People,

    at last, definitive weights as measured on a 1 gram electronic scale just a few minutes ago:

    A) The standard Silvia group handle assembly, as supplied on all current new Silvia’s, including black plastic handle and standard double outlet but MINUS a filter = 582 grams

    B) A group handle assembly as fitted to all standard **commercial** Rancilio machines, configured as above = 543 grams

    C) A standard generic (i.e. as used by many different manufacturers on their commercial machines) group handle assembly, configured as above = 552 grams

    D) A group handle assembly as fitted to standard commercial (not domestic) Gaggia machines, configured as above = 624 grams. (Think you fill find the domestic Gaggia assembly is not identical however & is likely to be lighter).

    Someone else can calculate standard deviations and a significance report!

    The standard generic commercial deep double coffee filter weighed in at 27 grams (and was not included in any of the above).

    No coffee filters were harmed during the conduct of this momentous experiment. ;D

    Regardz,
    FC.

  20. #20
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    596g (595.7 to be precise) for a La Cimbali group handle with a double spout and no filter/basket.

    Java "One more for the list" phile

  21. #21
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Re Silvia baskets. What is a good alternative which holds more coffee. Is the Marzocco 18 gm basket bigger than the standard Silvia double, and does it fit?

  22. #22
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    The sylvia double is only 12 or 14 g I think. I suspect that the sylvia handle would be too shallow to get a LM in- they wont fit in our Brasilia. Perhaps try a 16g basket???


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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Ohhh... can I flop one on the table too guys? *;D

    Boema double without the 28gm filter... 602gm

    I think I need to buy a gaggia and ditch my light-weight group handle. *;) * (or just back-fill the handle with molten lead)


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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    The "generic", "deep", double filter, as supplied by all and sundry commercial espresso machine manufacturers, holds around 18ish grams when filled - give or take - (depending on the amount that the shower on any individual model of machine sticks down into the filter when it is applied to the group) and when I fitted one of these to a brand new silvia this evening during a coffee class it slotted straight in as usual. These filters hold around 2 grams "ish" more coffee than the standard Sivia fllter and improve the coffee outa sight!

    Hope this helps.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Do you sell these "Super Size Silvia" filters FC?

    (he asks expecting a barrarge of Silvia owners looking to go deeper)

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Yes we do Andy.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1117709628/15#18 date=1118026760
    Think you fill find the domestic Gaggia assembly is not identical however & is likely to be lighter
    I think the reverse is more likely if you look at the design of the 2 PF types (that extended shank thing). In any case, you need to remove the handles from all of the PFs since the handles arent going to add to the heat capacity (except possibly by insulating any enclosed metal to reduce heat loss in that region). The bolt or nut attaching the PF to the handle should be included, I guess.

    Greg

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Hey Andy, FC

    I for one will put up my hand for a "supersize" Silvia basket.

    FC check your internal mail

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    I recently purchased a deep filter basket for Silvia following FCs comments above. I can confirm that with the extra capacity the resultant shots (doppio)have been significantly better in terms of colour and most importantly taste. The coffee seems to have more depth of flavour than that made with the standard Silvia basket.

    Thanks FC. It was money well spent!!

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    BTW the filter baskets were bought from Cosmorex (alias FC)

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    removing the spouts by running a hole saw through the bottom of the portafilter will also improve your coffees. Plus its fun to watch

    The shots taste much better (to me). With the coffee going straight from the filterbasket to the cup. Nothin but Air between the 2.

    I should have some photos around some where is anyone is intersted.

    BTW a bottomless filter handle can only be made (easily) with the Rancilio commercial handle as the handle will fall off the origonal one.

    I guess the added bonus would be you could fit a HUGE filter basket into it.

    The only downside is you are stuck with pouring doubles.

    Cheers
    Rich

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Hi Rich,

    Actually, I dont see that as a bad thing to be quite honest. Around our house doubles are about the only thing we drink. :)

    Cheers,
    Mal.

    Quote from Rich:
    The only downside is you are stuck with pouring doubles.

    Cheers
    Rich

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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Me too :)

    but I have started having a double espresso to have whilst I wait for the milk for my second drink which is also a double.... oops ;D

  34. #34
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Recommendations on Portafilter

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Hmmmm.... Im sort of guilty of that too Clarexican. If I have a milk based espresso drink I nearly always follow it with a "real coffee" ;D

    Hey Fresh_Coffee...
    can I get a "triple" basket for the Boema group?

    Im thinking of going naked on the spare boema group handle (so depth shouldnt matter) and was wondering if the diameter of triple baskets was the same between manufacturers?



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