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Thread: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

  1. #1
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    BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi Guys:

    I did a REALLY bad thing today.

    It is a Bezerra BZ99 with Rotary pump which I need to plumb in. *In pristine condition and only 18 months old.

    I tested it all out and it is lovely and also very quiet with this massive rotary pump in place of the reservour. *

    I paid $800 from an ad *in the online Quokka. *He was asking $900 and was originally asking $1000.

    I think I did really well.

    I guess my dream machine was more affordable than I thought!

    I would be interested to hear from fellow Bezerra owners. *It will be a week before it is all plumbed in. *I will get a plumber to make a water line for it to connect to and I will probably put a drain in too. *A hole in the bench will be required, oh well.

    It means Silvia will be for sale. *Only two months old. *I will probably want at least $600 for it as it is here in Perth where the prices are somewhat higher.

    Grant


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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Crap,

    I have just done some reading on this. It is a BZ-40P - MG.

    It has a 3.4L copper boiler and the wattage is 2550W using two heating elements. It does operate off a normal power point as I saw it in operation off one.

    This thing is worth $1950USD!! I saw it on the espresso on line website for this price with shipping extra.

    This thing is a friggin monster yet I was watching it come up to temperature. It only takes about 10 minutes and if you run a blank shot it is ready to go! I think them big elements help here.

    It would sell for $3000 easily here in Australia, allowing for the exchange rate and the fact that most things cost more here.

    The guy who was selling it to me was saying that he thought it was strange that it said 3.4L boiler on the front when it was 1.5L on the internet where he looked it up.

    He just moved into this house and the machine was there previously, left by the owner. There was a hole in the granite bench where it was plumbed in. It was a million dollar house so I guess it is not a big deal to them.

    So there you go, in the right place at the right time.

    Cant believe my luck.

    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Congrats!
    It looks lie a beauty :) cant wait to here of your trials with it :)

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    WooHoo!! Nice find!

    Java "Get it while you can" phile

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Youve done well Grant.

    Youll probably find its a 2 in 1 element jobbie....common on most commercial esp machines...2 seperate elements on the single flange....means if you have a failure, if youre lucky only one "half" of it is gone and you can limp along with the machine operating on slow recovery while you arrange a new element (another 2 in 1 job). ie, protection against total failure in a commerfcial situation. Some people dont even notice part of the element is gone for some time. They eventually ring up and say their machine is taking a lot longer to heat up in the morning than it used to....

    Strange, I wouldnt leave my coffee machine when I move house, plumbed or not.

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    What can I say? Nice one...

    You should let the guys at Bezerra know youve got it and what you payed for it. They sell them. The 2 group one is either 4k or 5k. So 3k or thereabouts sounds right.

    I hope youve got a good grinder...

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Grant,

    Good purchase...

    BZ40 is my favorite machine. It has 2 elements of 1250 watts each and 3.4 lt boiler, which result in a strong steam power and a fast recuperation time of steam in the boiler. You can plug it in a single phase 10 amp with not a problem.

    I would probably prior to installation, hook it to a 350kpa limited valve and connect a water filter to it.

    If you require technical diagrams of this machine you can download it from our web site www.barazi.com.au or give us a call 1-300-550-927 and I would be happy to help you with any trouble shooting.

    All spare part are available as well from the web site or you can call us for an ordr.

    Good Luck with your machine,

    Best regards

    Renzo / Barazi


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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Renzo:

    Thanks for that. It is a BZ-40P which is the earlier model which I think the BZ-40E with electronic dosing superceded.

    I was told it was about 18 months old which is possible but I gather it is more likely 4 - 5 years old.

    In any event it is in as new condition, neat as a pin and has obviously only been used in a domestic situation. Even the portafilter is showing no wear.

    I think I got lucky on this one. The only problem is cutting a hole in the bench!

    The 350kPa valve is protection against water hammer I gather?

    I am getting a twin cartridge filtration unit with a 5 micron filter and then a carbon/hexaphosphate combined cartridge. Not sure what make it is but he reckons easily 4 - 5 lpm even for the one micron but I decided to go to 5 just in case.

    Nice to know that there is good support out there and thanks for your offer of advice if there is a problem.

    Regards,
    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    My BZ40P is now up and running! I got the two pot filtration system in and it all fitted into the corner of the kitchen quite well. I cut a hole in the bench and one of the cupboard walls and it all went in nicely.

    I warmed it up.

    Loaded the portafilter to the top with decaf and did a standard tamp, put 100mls through the boiler and voila, a perfect shot!

    It is hard to believe but yes, just got a perfect 25 second/60 ml shot the first time I used the machine. It felt just like using a Silvia.

    I then steamed some milk. Obviously plenty of power and quicker than the Silvia. I got a reasonable foam but not perfect. It has a one hole wand and is dead easy to use.

    So far using it is a non event, like falling off a log, no learning curve at all. Well, maybe a little but it seems to be these espresso machines are much of a muchness although I know I can burn shots if I dont purge an HX machine like this first. I just run 100mls through immediately prior to the shot.

    The rotary pump is actually quite noisy, not in a raucus sort of way but more of a heavy duty rumble.

    The pump cuts in when I draw more than about 60 mls or so out of the boiler. I tested it drawing 160mls of water out of the boiler into an espresso cup and the pump runs for 35 to 60 seconds which seems excessive. It should only take 15 seconds or so to refill this volume so some adjustment may be needed.

    Other than that though, lovely.

    Grant


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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Ohhh! *No! *Is that a Sunbeam knock-box (Bang Band, as Sunbeam call it) sitting next to the Bezzera. * ;D
    Maybe one day you can trade up to an EM6900 as well. * [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Hi Monti:

    Yes the Sunbeam BANG BANG and an excellent product they are too. Even people in the USA try to get us Aussies to send them over.

    As far as the EM6900 for $599 or thereabouts or $800 for my Bezzera. Mmm. That is a hard one!

    :)

    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Really nice setup Grant.

    Are you absolutely loving being plumbed in? If I wasnt renting Id go fully plumbed asap.

    -Stephen-

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Stephen:

    Yes, it is nice and it will be even better when I get the drain put in. Just a matter of finding the right diameter hose and one that is OK with very hot water. I am putting a T in where the dishwasher goes into the drain.

    I think I have some adjustments to do though, the machine is running too cool. It either needs descaling or there is a problem with one of the level probes in the boiler.

    I suppose some issues are to be expected. I guess if I had paid another $2000 for a brand new one, I could expect no problems at all!! :)

    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    I suppose in a glass is half full way of thinking, youll get to know your machine more completely. That cant be a bad thing... possibley frustrating but informative *;)

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    WooHoo! Congrats on getting it all set up Grant! :) :)

    Give it a week or two and Im sure youll hve it all plumbed in and figured out. :)

    Java "Missing his espresso" phile

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Mmm, I have a few maintenance jobs to do.

    The heat transfer is below par and the temperature after two or three styrofoam cups of water being passed through drops to 58 degrees.

    I just phoned Barazi in Brisbane and they recommended running descaler through (some special liquid solution) for 45 minutes or something then checking and cleaning the boiler probes.

    Sounds like it is a few years old and just needs a clean.

    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1121576985/0#10 date=1121867398
    Hi Monti:

    As far as the EM6900 for $599 or thereabouts or $800 for my Bezzera. *Mmm. *That is a hard one!
    I know it is a hard one to swallow that you could have got a brand new Sunbeam with warranty and have $200 left over. * Not to mention the savings on the plumbing. [smiley=lolk.gif]

    I suppose some issues are to be expected. *I guess if I had paid another $2000 for a brand new one, I could expect no problems at all!! *
    No issues here. *None expected either. *I guess, If you payed only $600 for a brand new Sunbeam you would expect no problems either. * ;D

    Am I bad? *
    Yes, I am.

    Sorry, wattgn. *I just couldnt help it. * ;)
    I am just the "cheeky one" of the forum. *

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1121576985/15#15 date=1121900773
    Mmm, I have a few maintenance jobs to do.

    The heat transfer is below par and the temperature after two or three styrofoam cups of water being passed through drops to 58 degrees.

    I just phoned Barazi in Brisbane and they recommended running descaler through (some special liquid solution) for 45 minutes or something then checking and cleaning the boiler probes.

    Sounds like it is a few years old and just needs a clean.

    Grant
    Sounds like youve got a good project ahead of you,

    Id be wondering if the probes are scaled up enough to prevent a proper reading what else may be "scaley". *This may sound a bit extreme but Id consider pulling the whole thing down, cleaning and descaling everything and replacing all seals and orings. Whilst this is probably not necessary apart from the preventative maintenance youd be performing it would be an invaluable learning experience and youd be well positioned able to diagnose and repair any future problems. Well thats what I did and apart from a few anxious moments wondering just how much pressure to use on some of the joints it wasnt a difficult project at all and Im generally not the sort of guy whos described as "handy with tools" more like "hide the tools or put casualty on standby ;)"

    Unlike domestic machines like my old Krupps or Sunbeams these things are designed to be easily stripped down for routine maintenenance. For my money second hand commercial machines are *a much better long term investment option than a new domestic, I fully expect my kids will be enjoying *great espresso from my Cimbali long after Ive been relegated to chicken broth :(


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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Maurice:

    I will only pull apart what I have to.

    I took out the low and high level probes and they had a small amount of scale on them but as they are particularly delicate I soaked them in citric and after I put them back it worked much better, perfect in fact as far as the amount of water pulled before the pump cuts in. It is about 200mls or so now or more which is what you want. It means that you can steam a lot of lattes before the boiler needs to refill and then the pump runs for about 40 seconds and stops.

    I descaled it using citric acid and I havent given it a good try out yet but I think the problem is still there.

    I adjusted the pressure stat up so it cuts in at about 1.2 or 1.3 bar but the temperature is still too low.

    Tomorrow night I think I will take the boiler apart. I really just have to pay attention to the heat exchanger and the heating elements although the heating elements seem pretty powerful and it is quick to heat.

    The last thing it could be is a faulty pressure gauge and this is hard to test although there seems to be plenty of pressure so I rather doubt it.

    No, it all point to just poor conduction due to scale. I will have a look though. I have all the diagrams and that so that I can pull it down.

    That is the good thing about these machines they are built to last a lifetime.

    This machine is 9 years old by the way. I found out from the plate on the front. It is older than I thought but i think it will still be going 20 years from now and whats more you will still be able to get spare parts.

    It also looks dead easy to work on.

    Jack the head technician and Renzo from Barazi were both very helpful and I ordered an outlet hose for the drip tray from them. Sometime next week it will all be plumbed in.

    I also sold the Silvia tonight to a CS member which reminds me I must take my ad off CS.

    Im going to test it again in a minute. Im so glad I got a decent thermocouple. It has been a bit of a revelation for testing coffee machines and roasters.

    It made abolutely no difference doing the descaling. Ok, then out come the elements and the heat exchanger tomorrow. Lots of notes, photos and plastic bags full of parts!

    I am still puzzled that the machine could be so far down on temperature as everything looks totally sweet from the outside and everything works well, just not enough heat transfer!

    Grant -about- to -become-one-with-machine


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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    I cant imagine anything other than scale or the pressurestat causing the problem. What temp does water come out of the hot water tap at? If its producing steam it cant *be a pstat problem can it, it must be heat transferance as you said.

    Have you seen the scale pixs at http://members.lycos.nl/behindespresso/
    click through to limescale. shows 3 year old elements and hxs completely chocka with scale. if yours is bad you can get bulk citric acid much cheaper at home brew shops!

    This is also a good link for what can go wrong! http://owenegan.com/pix/espresso/cimbuini/040125/index.htm

    Identify all gaskets, seals orings etc and have them on hand, they dont cost much. Teflon tape, teflon paste and food safe high temp grease also come in handy. I got spares of pretty well everything for next time. I know the steam and hot water taps are pretty hard on valves and in my machine at least the whole assembly can need replacing if the washers and lube arent maintained. coffeeparts.com.au have good diagrams as well although for not much price difference Id stick with original parts.

    Lots of photos are the way to go, ive still got some on line at http://www.widebaymultimedia.com/cimbali/junior.htm

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Maurice:

    Thanks for that info. I will have a look shortly.

    I took out one element and the heat exchanger and cleaned them. The heat exchanger looked not too bad on the outside and it was hard to see inside but I soaked it in descaler for a few hours. The element was clagged up just inside the head but nowhere else.

    Even though I had the proper socket for the elements, one of them would have required a length of pipe on the end of the ratchet to get it off so I didnt bother. I might also be able to get my extra large pipe spanner onto it, it might come off.

    It was a bit of a mess in there in some ways although it looks better now.

    I had a MAJOR disaster though in the form of the field control box (black box) which sits on the bottom of the case right under the boiler. An unfortunate design feature, which combined with my lack of knowledge, resulted in water getting into it and shorted it.

    I have to buy a new one at a cost of $300 or so and will be without coffee for some time. I spoke to Renzo at Barazi and he thinks they have one in stock. He suggested getting some extensions for the plugs, making a bracket up and mounting it up on the wall of the machine. It sounds like a lot of trouble but its present location means, it is an accident waiting to happen. Each time the boiler overflows (a rare event though I would imagine) then it will short this box out.

    Ouch. Anyway, it has happened now. I learnt a lot last night. I look upon it as a $300 self teaching course!

    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Yikes, a dead brain box :(, cant help but feel a bit responsible seeing I encouraged you to pull it apart, but it sounds like you would were going to have to do it anyway right? :) Those element nuts sound rather tight, I wonder if heating would be *a softer option?

    One of the reasons I went for my Cimbali was it has very few smarts in it, unlike later models it has no programming or autofill options. manual everything. *But its electrics are also in a place I couldnt describe as being ideal as they are directly under the drip tray! *


    On the bright side youll certainly be an expert on what can go wrong with a bezzera and how to fix it by the time youre back in business though.

    good luck with the repair/rebuild, post some pics up if you can Id be interested to see your progress

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    maurice:

    Off to the Perth cafe day. I will have a coffee!

    The part i need is easy to get and costs $250 so it could be worse. I should get it wednesday next week I would think by express post.

    It could be worse.

    I have noted what you said though but at this stage, I just want a coffee then maybe I will schedule another pulldown to do some other things. There is a stripped allen hex nut on the group head so I may have to drill that out and yes, the other boiler element will require some extra work. I will get advice from Bezzera maybe.

    Thanks,
    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    maurice:

    The good news. *Alan (BigAl) suggested cleaning the circuit boards in the black box, the auto refill box. *To my amazement it worked!

    The bad news is that the machine operates just as poorly as before regarding heat exchange. *It has enough steam to push out 2L of water when Im running out the boiler so steam pressure I would say is not an issue. *I did adjust the boiler level probes so that it is giving about 32ml from the top of the boiler to the the bottom of the high level probe and about 44 mm for the low level probe. *This gives about 11mm above the top of the hx unit at the lowest level. *I am positive therefore that the hx unit is covered at all times.

    There are two possibilities, the most likely is that there is still scale inside the heat exchanger that I cant see. *I am surprised though that after soaking in descaler for two hours and being clean from what little I can see inside, that it is still scaled?

    This one has me stumped. *

    There is a PTFE line inside the heat exchanger which appears to be of the correct length etc. *This is used to take the water from further down the hx rather than from the end where the cold water comes in.

    Everything appears to be in order, it just isnt working. *:)

    I will take out the hx again (easy job) then soak it overnight and see what happens. *It chould still be a faulty boiler pressure gauge but I still think it seems unlikely.

    Regards,
    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Before you drill out the stripped bolt try using an Easy-Out. I find they work 95+% of the time to remove a screw or bolt with a stripped head with no risk of damaging the threads of what theyre screwed into. :) :)

    Java "Gotta love a good tool" phile

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Hi:

    Well, out comes the heat exchanger again! I soaked it overnight in a mixture of citric acid and sulphamic acid.

    My theory at the moment is that either the incorrect heat exchange unit or a modified one is fitted. I looked on the parts diagram and the heat exchange unit looks too short.

    I mean the hx unit never looked scaled in the first place which is why I am surprised that i am not getting any change at all at several de scale attempts, first through the machine then a few hours soak on Friday night now another 15 hour soak in the solution and still no change.

    The heat exchange volume as I measured it is only 70mls which seems inadequate. It has to heat water moving at up to 100mls per 10 seconds from ambient to over 90 degrees. I really cant see it happening.

    My theory now is that someone has modified it. I cant see it being the wrong part as the hx wouldnt work in any other machine either as it is too small.

    Anyway, back into the de scale solution it goes. I will measure the length and the volume and report to Jack at Barazi who can soon tell me.

    I mean the heat exchange would have to increase by about 40% for the thing to work. The steam pressure is set to 1.2 bar minimum at the moment so it cant go much higher.

    It could still be scale although literally I cant see it! I wish I could look inside the thing. It could still be steam but again I doubt it. There is a heap of steam pressure in there.

    No more coffee for me till this is fixed!

    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Sounds perpelxing all right, I would guess that scale enough to insulate the heating elements wold be VERY noticeable, if Im reading correctly you cant remove the heater element and therefore cant inspect the boiler and elemnets for scale. If the scale was that bad wouldnt you be able to see it through the hx aperture, maybe even feel it with a wire probe? Lots of rough edges would have to give you a different tactile feedback than the smooth edges of a ounded boiler??

    re the size of the hx, mine *is pictured at http://widebaymultimedia.com/cimbali/cimbali4.htm coffeeparts shows this as 150mm long and uses a 20mm diameter washer so yes 70mm does sound very short, (but size doesnt always matter ;))

    Im really shooting in the dark here as I know zip about bezzeras, I assumed they use a pressurestat but looking on coffeeparts they only show thermostats, this is a whole different ball game, anyway sounds like the pros will give you the advice you need because Im rapidly getting out of my depth :(

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    maurice:

    I would be interested in what the volume of the La Cimbali hx is.

    It does use a pressurestat much like the one in you pic. It is very easy to adjust too although you have to take the top of the machine off.

    The hx doesnt look as long as it does in the schematic for the Bezzera which should be close to scale. In particular, in the schematic, the hx is twice the length of the ptfe tube on the inlet. Mine looks much smaller but it could just be poor drawing in the schematic.

    The fact that holds only 70mls though seems too low. It has to heat about 100mls every 10 seconds from ambient up to 90+ degrees. I just cant see it.

    I would be interested if anyone has measured the volume of the La Cimbali hx. Basically the heat exchange requirements are the same for any hx machine. If the fittings were right you could be pretty well any hx in any machine.

    Regards,
    Grant

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Gary

    This might have already been looked at.

    I am not certain if you said your getting steam or not, but you did say there was steam. On the front of our grouphead is a hex nut.... once we undid it we found that there was a Stainless steel mesh filter inside the group head, This is there to remove any scale that might get to the screens, We never had any problems with ours, however we still replaced the SS Filters, this might be a good place to have a look..... If yoour getting steam then the heating elements are working and depending on the time it takes to heat up should be a good indication of the element/s performance.
    So if your getting steam and water from the required spots and not a lot of water from the grouphead then have a look at the filter, I think most of these machines have a filter to filter the final water to the Grouphead.

    If I have gone off on the wrong tangent then I suppose I have just made an absolute goose of myself. ;D

    Cheers

    FB

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Maurice:

    The volume the hx holds is 70mls, it is 160mm long including the end cap and is 28mm outside diamater. It does sound similar in size to the La Cimbali one so may be my one is OK and it is the schematic which is not to scale.

    I worked out the internal diameter as a check to see if it literally was chockas with scale but it worked out ok.

    I went and checked on the de-scale and there was a plume of material coming out of the end of the hx so it may be there is scale in there gradually dissolving but located where I cant see it when I look through the top.

    I got one heating element out and there was scale at the base which I removed. There is some scale in the boiler although not too bad. I look upon it as free insulation rather than a problem. It is a problem though when it is on your heat exchanger!

    Once I get the machine to perform then I will consider other work on it but I could have stripped it down and cleaned every single bit and it still would have had this issue. It may be that it does just take days or even up to a week to properly descale some stuff like the hx.

    I have sent the photo to Jack at Barazi for his opinion.

    Now if anyone wants to pull the hx unit out of their machine and measure the volume?? :)

    Grant


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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    I remember trying to track down the volume of the HX on my Diadema, and from memory the answer was 120mls. I wont bet any appendages on that but Im fairly sure...

    Sorry I cant be more definite.

    -Stephen-

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Accidental double post.

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    Re: Bezerra BZ99

    Hi:

    After soaking the hx for two days in acid, I think it is as clean as a whistle but still no luck.

    I beginning to think it is a broken Jet in the outlet fitting of the hx. This jet looks like it might be broken and it controls the flow of water.

    The flow rate at the moment is 200mls in 10 seconds or 1200 mls per minute which is twice what it should be.

    I have emailed Jack at Bezzera so hopefully I will get it sorted tomorrow.

    The jet looking into the fitting is more or less flush and looks like two semi circles with a break in the middle. It says in the part description for the Bezzera that is is a 5 hole jet. My bet it is when it isnt broken!!

    Because the part was in place I never considered checking it but it is pretty obvious from the flowrate that it is broken.

    It is the right hx of course. I guess I have been grasping at straws. If this is a dead end then it must be pressure although Im quite sure that there is heaps of pressure in the machine.

    There you go.

    Grant

  34. #34
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Hi:

    Well, I am enjoying my first espresso, well a latte and decaf at that but then it is almost midnight. I have been working on my machine for the last four hours.

    I put in a new hx, the correct one. It turns out it had the wrong hx in it!! Mind you I had to get a rubber mallet and a steel pipe to panelbeat the boiler so that it could go in! the mounting protecting the level probes was in the way.

    I then found that the flow rate was too high even with the pump wound back. I grabbed the 0.2mm jet that Jack sent and put this in, a bit tricky as the machine was hot. Voila, after three weeks and a lot of time and uncertainty. I had 100mls/10seconds flow at 8.5bar (measured with my portafilter gauge). The machine is putting out water a bit over the 90C mark which is perfect.

    I am so relieved and pleased. It steams like a dream and the temperature stability is fantastic.

    These machines are quite different to the E61, better I think as even with out a purging shot the temperature is just about spot on. If you flush the temperature actually goes up slightly.

    Anyway, early days yet on this machine. It has been in parts out on the table outside under the patio for three weeks while I have been on the phone to Jack at Bezzera trying to figure all this out.

    Who the f... put in a hx for a BZ-99. God only knows!

    Yes, and the wrong jet for the pump it has.

    Anyway, Jack did say that the first espresso off this machine would taste very sweet indeed and it does!

    Grant

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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    WooHoo!! Congrats on getting it all fixed up and working correctly!

    Ya gotta wonder whats going through some peoples heads when they fix a machine like that with the wrong parts. Ive seen it all too often over the years on various machines Ive worked on. Some people shouldnt be allowed with-in 10 meters of a toolbox.

    Java "Gotta love a good repair" phile

  36. #36
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Ok one picture of the beast after I got it working about midnight last night.

    2.8kW (yes, it does work on a normal power point and power circuit) and 3.4L boiler.

    It has a dual water line pressure and boiler pressure gauge on the right.

    It is all plumbed in including the drain. *I just split the drain from the dishwasher and fed the line in from the drip tray.

    Enjoying another well deserved espresso as I type.

    Grant


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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1121576985/30#33 date=1123170967
    Hi:

    Well, I am enjoying my first espresso, well a latte and decaf at that but then it is almost midnight. *I have been working on my machine for the last four hours.


    Who the f... put in a hx for a BZ-99. *God only knows!


    Grant
    Good news Grant,
    Well didnt you say it was advertised as a BZ99? , the seller was just trying to add some credibility to his spiel. *;) Makes you wonder about the history and the indignities suffered over a period of ten years, well it sounds like its at a good home now. Seriously congrats on getting it all back together, must been pretty frustrating for a while there.

    At the end of the day *seems to be another persuasive argument for secondhand commercial vs new "prosumer" provided you dont mind getting your hands dirty and doing some "minor :P" troubleshooting.

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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Congrats Grant! Welcome back to the world of wonderful coffee. ;)

    At the end of the day seems to be another persuasive argument for secondhand commercial vs new "prosumer" provided you dont mind getting your hands dirty and doing some "minor " troubleshooting.
    I think that is the punchline.

    If you want to tinker, need a hobby and can do most of the work yourself, then a reasonable condition ex-commercial is ideal.

    If you need to use "real service people" then the expense of getting an older machine runnning might be unreasonable and you would be better-off with a Silvia class machine (or a Sunbeam) :)


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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Good one Grant!

    Now Im the next cab off the rank with a 2nd hand BZ 35e in excellent external condition. Inside looks a little blacker. In fact the inside of the porta-filters (it came with two) was so black and grungy, I thought that maybe they sold the machine because they couldnt get good coffee from it anymore, but in reality they just never cleaned it (or lifted the filter baskets out of the portafilter). It took quite a lot of scrubbing to clean them.

    It has some issues. It was running for 2 days then stopped mid-shot. There was a strange taste as well, so I knew it was strip down and clean time anyway. These machines are great to work on. Just 2 screws and the whole top/sides come off to reveal the intestine-like piping and nice round boiler.

    By the end of this, not only will I have a great machine, but Ill be able to do all my own servicing.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

    PS Before it stopped runnig (probably a blocked gicleur/jet) it was nearly spot on temperature wise. It idles a little cool, so a couple of flushes bring it up to temperature. The routine is similar to that used with other non-heated group machines that are designed for continual use.

  40. #40
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Mark:

    These machines could benefit from PID technology too and whats more there is room inside the case to hide all the wiring and electronics. It still has a dead band in common with all mechanical on/off temperature controls. Mine is cycling between about 1.1 - 1.4 bar.

    The Bezzeras seem to run cool. I mean you flush to bring them UP to temperature. If you read on Home Barista it is the same for the Cimbali Junior DT1 they tested, the flush is to warm up the group. The E61 machines you seem to flush the group to cool it down before pulling the shot.

    So far so good. I have been measuring the temp of about 50 -100mls at a time and the hottest ex the porta filter spout is about 92C. If you keep pulling 100mls consecutively quickly it will drop down to the low eighties but this isnt a realistic test for real life performance.

    It is a big beast but very easy to use. I have a three holed steam tip which seems to work OK but it took me three weeks to master Silvias steam so it might take me a few days or even a few weeks to get this right. So far its been frothing reasonably well.

    Grant


  41. #41
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1121576985/30#39 date=1123238565

    The Bezzeras seem to run cool. I mean you flush to bring them UP to temperature. If you read on Home Barista it is the same for the Cimbali Junior DT1 they tested, the flush is to warm up the group. The E61 machines you seem to flush the group to cool it down before pulling the shot.
    Hhhhmmm....Im not sure where you saw that info about the Cimbali as it directly contradicts my personal experience as well as the review of the Cimbali DT1 that I saw there ( http://www.home-barista.com/junior-buyers-guide.html ). Except under continuous useage Cimbalis require cooling flushes. Not as large a volume flush as the E-61s do, but a cooling flush none the less.

    Java "My Momma raised me right, I flush every time!" phile

  42. #42
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Java:

    Yes, as soon as I posted it I had a look at the article again and youre quite right.

    The Bezzera does run cool generally for some reason. I dont know if thats a bad thing or not as long as the target temperature is achieved.

    I think it is the way the cool water mixes with the hot water in the hx. The designers may be trying to avoid the hot water syndrome. Certainly with the Cimbali three group at Supreme coffee you have to be very careful to flush otherwise you will burn the coffee.

    The Bezzera never goes above 92 degrees so really the only point of flushing is to bring the group up to temperature if it has been idle for a while.

    The Cimbali group also needs to be brought up to temperature according to the Home Barista article which is why I was getting confused between initial warmup of the group after first starting or when idle for some time. This is the same for both machines but the water itself is a different matter.

    The hx in the Bezzera is horizontal unlike the cimbali which is vertical I think. Anyway, the hx has a 130mm PTFE tube down the inlet side and the hx is just a 20mm copper pipe with the inlet and outlet on the same end. There is a fair bit of mixing obviously between the hot and cold water which is why even though after an idle period the water is at boiler temperature (about 118 degrees I believe), it never comes out hotter than 92C. Overall probably a good feature. You certainly wont ever burn coffee.

    Grant

  43. #43
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Well done, Grant. That midnight coffee must have had the added taste of satisfaction. You perservered and came up trumps, and now you are on intimate terms with the heart and soul of your machine.

  44. #44
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Yes, Robusto:

    It was a truly Zen experience with man and machine becoming one, my yin and yang balancing etc etc etc, I became one with the cosmos and all that bullshit.

    Seriously it was a bit painful but the important thing was that it was successful and not too expensive a learning curve for me.

    Ive been doing temperature measurements and it is very interesting. You read all about how hx machines operate but this is quite different.

    Basically if you pull say 50 - 70 mls after it has been sitting idle you get about 83C. If you then pull another 50 -70 mls it is about 90C or so. If you keep pulling in quick succession the temp will drop. That isnt a realistic test though as normally for espresso you would pull about 100mls over 25 seconds or so rather than 10 seconds and one espresso a minute would be close to the maximum rate of production.

    I have to say the more I examine the behaviour of this machine, the more I like it. It is pretty well impossible to burn coffee and it will, correctly used produce very consistent brewing temperatures.

    I havent finished experimenting yet but it looks like just a small pull of 50 mls or so if it has been sitting idle is all that is necessary to prepare for a shot.

    Grant

  45. #45
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    The Cimbalis have the HX mounted roughly 35 degrees off of horizontal and also have a PTFE tube on the inlet side that dumps the incoming water at the bottom of the HX with the outlet being at the top directly into the grouphead.

    As with all HX machines Cimbalis require a warm-up period after first being turned on (2 hours is the figure I usually see being tossed around) to bring the boiler, HX, and grouphead up too operating temperature. Cimbalis have the most massive grouphead in the marketplace (22 pounds per several sites Ive seen) and it requires some time to bring that much mass up too proper operating temperature.

    Once warmed up they will require a cooling flush prior to every extraction unless you are in a commercial setting with a high enough volume to be doing continuous extractions. This is what the Cimbalis are designed to do, day in and day out non-stop. As a result if you are not doing continuous extractions the grouphead will get too hot and require a cooling flush, with the volume and number of flushes varying with how long it has been sitting since the last pull.

    If Cimbalis can be said to have a weak point this is it, the requirement to flush between shots during non-continuous use to prevent burning the grounds.

    Java "Isnt it fun learning about your new toy?" phile

  46. #46
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Hi Java:

    I am really quite excited about the design of this machine. *I never would have thought that hx machines existed that worked this way. *I got a reading of 92 degrees at the exit of the portafilter this morning which is the highest I have had. *Basically once you give it the 50ml purge. *It will do the next 50mls over a very tight temperature range in the low 90s. *It will never burn a shot as a result, simply impossible.

    The group on this would be quite a lot lighter than the Cimbali although I dont see an extra heavy group necessarily as a plus (law of diminishing returns) as most of the temperature variation comes from the water inlet temperature to the group. *The other thing is the Bezzera is designed quite differently and you simply cannot put a heavy group of Cimbali size onto it. *The reason is simple, the group comes off the top of the boiler on the Cimbali. *This makes more of the group in contact with the boiler than with most other machines and allows the use of a heavier group. *

    The Bezzera is very simple with the hx coming out the side of the boiler and it takes about 20 minutes I suppose more or less to take the hx out and to reinstall it.

    I would be interested in what the hx area is in the Cimbali. *My hx is 24.5cm long as it is mounted horizontally and is 20mm diameter which gives about 147 square cm for heat exchange and contains 130mls. *I suppose it is a bit academic though as probably both machines have ample capacity for the job at hand. *I think the Cimbali just has a bigger diameter hx.

    The LaScala Butterfly just has the copper pipe running through the hx which does the job but does the obvious thing which is it heats up the water above target temperature, the instant you stop the flow which is what happens on most hx machines including the Cimbali. *It is a variable thing though. *I would suspect this temperature rise situation would be VERY severe on the Butterfly and much less so on the Cimbali, as there is some mixing of water coming in and going out and seemingly non existent on the Bezzera (even more mixing).

    I mean in theory the first water out on the Butterfly could be 118 Degrees which would involve much flashing of steam and a potentially terrible shot.

    Grant

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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Hhhmmm.....The boiler is round so I dont see where it matters where on the circumference the HX/grouphead is mounted other than where it is in relation to the water level. The area of contact will be the same. The only difference would be in how much of the HX itself is submerged in the boilers water.

    Also Im not sure where youre seeing that the HX/Grouphead is mounted on the top of the Cimbalis boiler. On mine and all the others Ive seen it mounts about 30 degrees up from the horizontal. On the attached picture from when I was tearing my M-28 apart the boiler is still mounted in the frame and Ive circled where the grouphead attaches to the HX. It is the larger object in the background and not the small brass coupling in the foreground.

    Im curious as to how long your machine can maintain that flat temp. Ive not done any tests of my own but according to the previously quoted link/review Cimbalis maintain the flat temp out to more than 45 seconds. Gotta love thermal mass. Once I pick up a thermocouple Ill have to run some of these tests myself and see just how accurate my guesstimates have been with the flushes on my machine. I also suspect that because of the larger boiler I may well hold a stable temp for longer than the 45s quoted for the DT1.

    I must once again congratulate you on an excellent aquisition. It sounds like youve got an awesome machine that will give you great espressos for many years to come! :) :)

    Java "Longing for the grand reopening of his espresso bar" phile


  48. #48
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Java:

    I was looking on home barista at the DT1 photos trying to figure it out. It looks to me like the only room for the hx would be off the top of the boiler as it has pictures of both ends of the boiler. One end has the element and there are various lines coming off the other end. I thought that the only place would be off the top straight into the group?

    Another myth here is about the hx being immersed in steam or water affecting heat transfer. Sure this will affect heat transfer although in the case of the Bezzera it is totally immersed. What improves the over temperature situation for the Cimbali they reviewed is that there is some mixing of hot and cold water, nothing to do with immersion of the hx. Likewise with the Bezzera where you get pretty well no overtemperature situations, it is accomplished by mixing cold and hot in the hx. Compare that to the Butterfly where it is just a tube running through the hx. You would end up with 118C water in the line! Possibly with these machines they do try to control it by partial immersion but that is risky too as varying the boiler level would throw out your heat transfer.

    On the Bezzera it would make no difference.

    The ability to maintain temperature is really only going to be relevant to the brewing of the espresso. That is 100mls over 25 seconds or whatever and a maximum rate of about one per minute or thereabouts.

    We even had this discussion on the EM6900 with Alan Frew drawing 100mls and then saying it had missed its target temperature. The fact is the thermoblock may still perform well at the reduced flow of an espresso.

    The Bezzera has a 3.4L boiler and the hx extends the length of the boiler so the energy draw is distributed nicely along the boiler. The ability to draw for say 45 seconds without further temperature drop (after the initial 12 seconds they mentioned) , would in the end be a function of boiler size and the Bezzera has about 35% bigger boiler than the DT1. If you look at a true 1 group commercial machine they use 5L boilers. So the bigger the better I guess. The other issue would be to time this continuous draw with the right part of the boiler cycle so that as it is drawing water, the element is on to counteract the loss of energy. All in all a pretty academic exercise, I think though as you would never use the machine with this rate of draw.

    The bugbear of all hx machines appears to be overtemperature issues, something exaggerated with E61 groups. Bezzera simply mix more cold with hot in the hx and the result is the coffee never gets burnt and you get extremely stable temperatures during a shot.

    In conlusion, I love the way they have set up the hx in this machine and the temperature profiles it gives. Whether a detailed test between a properly setup and run Cimbali versus Bezzera, would show one to give more stable brew temperatures than the other, would be VERY interesting but hard to organise. Meanwhile we can argue about it. :)

    Grant

  49. #49
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Meanwhile we can argue about it. Smiley
    I had a laugh Grant! Nah, not an arguement, just a nice discussion. Heck, its not even a debate, just an exchange of information and ideas. :)

    You raise an interesting point about the DT1. The older Cimbali single group machines were full fledged commercial machines. It seems the DT1 has been down graded a bit in its design and while it is still considered a commercial machine it is no longer designed for continuous duty. Its still an awesome machine from all reports but its no longer the heavy-duty mega-monster it once was. As such there is no direct comparision to my machine as I have an M-28 Basic 2-Group, with its monster (11 or 12 liter I forget which) boiler which *is designed for non-stop continuous use.

    I guess getting down to the nitty-gritty details we could come to the conclusion that the Bezzera is more user friendly as it requires no learning curve on how to properely flush it as oppossed to the Cimbali which has a rather steep learning curve. Of course the other side of that coin is that you can customize your pull then on the Cimbali to fit whats best suited to the bean by varying your flushing routine while with the Bezzera thats not possible (with-out modification anyways). Of course if you desired to do that you may be able to do so by raising your boiler pressure/temp.

    The other obvious area of comparison/contrast would be in the duty cycle of the machine. I suspect that the Bezzera would have problems doing non-stop one shot after another. The Cimbali DT1 may also have issues with this. The Cimbali M-28 has no such problem. It can pull one shot after another after another as fast as you can dump and tamp delivering the same exact temperature profile each and every time.

    But how often does one really need that capacity in a home machine? I had a laugh Lets face it, either the Bezzera or the DT1 are over-kill for a home machine! giggled like a schoolgirl Isnt it fun?! ;D

    But now I should probably run off to catch a couple hours of sleep so I can spend 10 hours driving today. B&Gs here I come!! WooHoo!!

    Java "Salivating at the thought of the worlds *best B&Gs!" phile

  50. #50
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    Re: BZ40P (was: Bezerra BZ99)

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Java:

    Yes, I didnt realise your machine was such a mega monster! Wow 10L boiler is big.

    Yes, both machines are overkill.

    I find the differences in design approach interesting. The Bezzera delivers very good reproducibility under normal brew conditions. The water line to the brew head runs up the side of boiler from the hx. I calculated that this holds about 15mls of water and I think that the flush routine is really just to void this dead volume of water that may not be up to temperature. I think once the machine is warmed up that the temperature of the group isnt an issue. Im still experimenting with this.

    Yes, you can change the brew temperature by adjusting the pressure. I need to do more measurements.

    If you are really fussy then PID control with a solid state relay is the only way to really regulate the temperature and pressure precisely. On any machine with an on/off control and mechanical relay you have to have a dead band otherwise the mechanical relay would shit itself. I will get different temps if I pull a shot at 1.1bar than at 1.4bar.

    Anyway, enough of machinery.

    Grant



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