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Thread: Boema

  1. #1
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    Boema

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi,

    Can anyone tell me more about Boemas, and how do they compare with the likes of LaScala or Bezzeras. I presume the Boemas have the E61 group, dual boilers, etc??? Even though they are Australian, I havent come across many who has one.

    Interested in any comments.

    Cheers

    franjae

  2. #2
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    Re: Boema

    Franjae,

    Boema Coffee Machines are made in Australia, are good machines becouse are very simple. Not much inside.
    Personally, I did not like it, because I found that they run a bit hot and when I try to open the steam tap I had to do a lot of turns before the steam come up. I found this a bit unsavety but it could be that i am used to my Bezzera (BZ90 or well know as Pasquini)

    If you want more information regarding Boema machines check their web site.
    www.boema.com.au a tecknition friend of my he said that they are a nice people to deal with.

    Berst regards

    Renzo
    Barazi Bezzera Coffee Machines

  3. #3
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    Re: Boema

    I dont think Boemas have either the E61 head or dual boilers. I believe they use standard heat exchangers like 99% of commercial machines out there. They are true commercial machines and as such even the single group machine has a 5 litre boiler I believe. (you should check this, because Im not sure of this)

    I see plenty of Boemas around. Its great to see a local industry producing machines.

    BTW: Its still not easy to find dual boiler machines in use. As much as the Yanks love La Marzoccos, theyre rare as hens teeth here. (at least in my experience)

    Cheers,

    Mark.



  4. #4
    tim
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    Re: Boema

    Andy & FrenchBean both own Boemas (although FB has replaced his with a Veneziano.....lucky bugger!)(Andy did an extensive restoration on one last year), so they are the guys to talk to.
    Dont know about FBs but Ive had a few coffees from Andys and its a great machine.... , plumbed-in, huge boiler and more steam than Puffing Billy!!!

    Tim

  5. #5
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    Re: Boema

    Yep, its a great machine.
    It helps if you are looking for a project and enjoy to tinker. If so then buy a second hand one like Frenchbean and I did, grab some tools and have a play.

    The original post about the resto is here...
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1108007340

    Sparky... it has a E61 head and a HX single boiler.
    http://mediapix-australia.com/coffee/boema40b.jpg

    Tim... yeah, just like Puffing Billy!




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    Re: Boema

    Thank goodness it doesnt run on coal, or produce thick black smoke when in operation.

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    Re: Boema

    Thanks guys,

    yes I was contemplating getting something basic to tinkle with, and at the end of it all, you can use it to produce good coffee.

    Andy, that is the exact model I am looking into. However it sounds like it may be an overkill for home use. A 5 litre boiler......thats about a weeks worth of water...... :o

    Bench space is not an issue. I am lucky to have a second kitchen, which is my coffee room.

    Cheers

    franjae

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    Re: Boema

    Franjae:

    When you think about it, people think nothing of keeping 80 - 120litres of water at 80C or so for 24 x 7. You would be keeping 5L of water at 120C for only part of the day. It is still only a fraction of the old electricity bill especially if you lag it like Andy did.

    I mean your love for the environment is touching though and I appreciate that! :)

    The bigger question if this machine is the one on evil bay is whether you are going to get ripped off.

    These commercial machines definitely do the job and the rotary pump is a very nice thing to have and is better than a vibe pump as it provides the same pressure over a range of flow rates.

    Grant

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    Re: Boema

    Hi Grant,

    theres one on Ebay but that is getting too expensive and looks like theres nothing to tinkle with. There was one on auction (local) the other day which went for $550, which wasnt bad. Anyway, I will do further research and decide. Otherwise I might save for up upgrade next year, maybe a Lascala Butterfly? I should start getting a finance application happening.......

    franjae

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    Re: Boema

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Freeman link=1126153594/0#4 date=1126182486

    Sparky... it has a E61 head and a HX single boiler.
    http://mediapix-australia.com/coffee/boema40b.jpg
    Pedantic point I know, but thats not an E61 group. It is a thermosyphon heated group though, so is functionally
    very similar in that respect. E61s also have the mechanical pre-infusion and mechanically activated 3-way valve and are all chromed, polished and .... easy to burn yourself on ;)

    A working commercial HX machine for under $1000, what a bargain.

  11. #11
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    Re: Boema

    With reservation....

    almost any boema under (genuinely) 8 years old will be quite a good machine.

    Older models were outrageous coffee burners and unless a PO (previous owner) has done some serious modifying to try and counteract this, I seriously doubt anyone in CS circles would be satisfed with the resulting brews. My comments about "coffee burning" should not be seen as a hit on anyones personal choice of (boema) machine, because the coffee burner thing was very widespread amongst some older espresso machines irrespective of brand.

    They do not use the E61 group but that has nothing to do with anything much in a domestic situation.

    They are a standard 1 boiler commercial heat exchanger machine (as mentioned already) and that has nothing to do with anything either.

    The weakest link on a used older boema is going to be the steam / hot water taps. They were bad. Having said that however if you buy new taps and knobs for them, they will work fine.

    You asked how bo-ema compares with la scala & bezzera...they dont, because I am assuming you are talking about the smaller semi commercial las scalas and bezzeras like butterfly and BZ99 and BZ 02, whilst boema does not make anything that small...the smallest boema is a 1 group commercial machine suitable for cafe use and therefore it has far greater capacity than the others mentioned.

    Regardz,
    FC.

  12. #12
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    Re: Boema

    FC:

    What do you mean an "outrageous coffee burner". If you mean "runs too hot", that moniker would apply still to most hx machines on the market as most require quite a purge routine to bring them down in temperature and avoid burning the shot.

    Grant

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    Re: Boema

    Grant,

    I wrote...."outrageous". By this I mean, to an extent that simply is not acceptable...to me, as *coffee merchant. These older machines made evryones coffee look bad...irrespective of brand, freshness, type of blend etc.

    In addition, I disagree with your observation that most heat exchanger machines are coffee burners ( or words *roughly to that effect...and apologies if I got it worng). Depending on brand and model, they vary quite a but....oils aint oils Im afraid. Including OLD generation bo-emas, many Italian machines around a decade ago ran so hot you could NOT purge the water down to an acceptable temp. They gushed steam indefinitely, no matter how (as technicians) we tried to counteract this. And believe you me, there are trechnicians and there are technicians. Espresso machine traders that are not also coffee merchants, are only concerned that the group flows water....couldnt necessarily care less if the temp is not right..Coffee merchants do....

    You will find that the more complicated system *of "recycling" heat exchanger system (iif I can call it that) as fitted to your own BZ, is the manufacturers attempt (successful I think) to cool down an impossible coffee burner of yesteryear.

    But they dont all need that kind of system...depends on the brand and model and the manufacturers own philosophy of design. All heat exchanger machines are basically different in internal design.... for example. Holdens and Falcoms are pitched at the same market, but are they the same...I think not. The differnece in the heat exchanger could be as simple as the angle that the heat exchanger runs through the boiler, the ID (internal diameter) of the heat exchanger, or the length of the injector, the amount of flow, etc etc etc. we are talking complete espresso brewing systems including the type of group fitted, not a void ( boiler) with a pipe stuck thhrough it!

    So... they are not all the same when it comes to performance in the quality of the brew.

    Regardz,
    FC.






    Regardz,
    FC.


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    Re: Boema

    FC,

    I was just curious what you meant.

    I always find it curious that very few manufacturers aside from Bezzera actually publish schematics on their machines. In other words it is very hard to know how they are actually put together and it seems owners dont know either unless theyve bought it second hand and have stripped it down to have a look.

    The Bezzeras and the Cimbalis are two machines that I know do have heat exchangers inside their boilers where some mixing can occur and both have reasonable profiles although the Cimbalis still require some cooling down but it is quite achievable.

    Certainly if there was no way to cool the machine down then it would be a piece of junk. Andy and others have older Boemas so I wonder how they are finding their machines?

    It would seem odd to me that any manufacturer would knowingly make a machine unable to produce a decent cup of espresso. Extraordinary in fact, hard to believe etc etc etc

    :)

    Grant


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    Re: Boema

    Understood.

    However...taxi drivers dont really need to know anything about the internal desgn philosophy of the engyne in their vehicle, and it can be said that an espresso machine owner / operator doesnt need to know nuttin about the design philosphy of his espresso machine either...just need to know it will "perform" properly....and I think they should know a little about basic tuning & service as well.

    And look here is another "interesting" point....just for academic purposes.

    The E61 machine / design is commonly regarded as the "mother" of the *modern electric pump driven commercial espresso machine. I know from personal experience they are relatively simple in design (KISS principle), make one GREAT brew, are not "outrageous coffee burners", AND they are relatively easy to tune for best effect.

    If this is the case and I can assure you it is, why are all these other modern commercial machine that have sprung up since then so different in they way they perform and in their "tuneability". We see a lot of diff brands and models and believe you me, they share the "common thread" of being a heat exchanger type, but there it ends with each designers different slant on things.

    Interesting.

    By the way Andys machine is what I would call *"new generation" Bo-Ema and does not fall into my "outrageous coffee burner" category (youre safe Andy) *:D

    Oh and with regard to your observation about how it is hard to believe that manufacturers would knwingly build machines that dont seem "to work proper like"....here is another observation for you. *Over there just about all coffee served is not even a "regulation size" espresso...they are more likely to be quite a bit less than 30 mls. *They also use very very different coffees (v. high proportions robusta / oil)...and they ALWAYS add sugar and lots of it (our sugar portions are around 3 grams each, theirs are atleast 6 grams each per single serve...the style of their espresso (thick and sweet) is quite different to ours.

    As far as they are concerned, the machine only needs to do a job to run out say somewhere around 20 to 25 mls coffee max. For this style of coffee they "need" to be at the high end of the temp range or the short short coffee wont be at the right temp after taking into consideratoin loss of heat during such a short brew cycle, type of coffee used, temp of cups etc etc etc.....

    Their requirements may well be (seem to be / are) quite diff to ours, and it is only through feedback from companies like mine, that the manufacturers find out we may have diff requirements and like to have our machines set up a little different to suit.... And some manufacturers listen and act, and many others couldnt give a fig because our market is not that big and the machines are not designed for us, theyre designed for them!

    Marketing marketing marketing etc etc etc.

    All is never as it seems, quality often has nothing to do with anything, one mans quality is another mans garbage, but dollars and euros do speak volumes!

    Regardz,
    FC.

  16. #16
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    Re: Boema

    FC,

    I beg to differ on people not wanting to know the technical details of why machines perform the way they do. If there is one forum on the planet where the technically curious gather, it is here!

    People are paying a small fortune for some of these machines and if they arent curious about the hows and whys then fair enough but I think most of us are!

    The greatest myth buster of course is the thermocouple. :)

    I also dont think whether a machine has an E61 group or not is either here nor there as far as its overall performance is concerned. I think the heat exchanger or boiler design/size has a lot more to do with it. This is one of the reasons I like to know what is in the heart of the machine and NOT what is chrome plated sitting on the outside. Some E61 machines perform very well and others not so well.

    The commercial machines overall perform very well and machines like my Bezzera were on the market well before the new prosumer E61 machines showed up.

    I think that the Italians do know what they are doing, in general, at least when it comes to machine design, but like any group of people, they probably dont have all the answers to all things espresso.

    Anyway, my Bezzera, which was built in 1996, is Italian designed and built and is certainly the most thermally stable machine that I have come across, the combination of good heat exhcanger design and a honking big boiler. I think in general that it peforms better than most of the prosumer E61 machines that I have heard about. It is impossible to burn a shot if you forget to purge it. Its temperature profile also makes it excellent for ristrettos.

    The Boema though I dont know too much about so I dont have an opinion on this machine although I think Andy is very happy with his and wouldnt want to trade it for anything.

    Grant

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    Re: Boema

    Grant,

    Re: *"...I beg to differ on people not wanting to know the technical details of why machines perform the way they do. If there is one forum on the planet where the technically curious gather, it is here! ..."

    I must confess I understood you were talking about "esp machine consumers" in general, not a small number of members in this group! *;)

    Re "...People are paying a small fortune for some of these machines and if they arent curious about the hows and whys then fair enough but I think most of us are! ..."

    I disagree, most people are buying a fashion accessory. In generally terms, its currently fashionable to profess *to like espresso & gear up with equipment. Thats about the extent of it...to most (and I am being general and not talking about this group only) , it just needs to work and fit the decor in the kitchen.

    Re: "...I also dont think whether a machine has an E61 group or not is either here nor there as far as its overall performance is concerned. *I think the heat exchanger or boiler design/size has a lot more to do with it. *This is one of the reasons I like to know what is in the heart of the machine and NOT what is chrome plated sitting on the outside. *Some E61 machines perform very well and others not so well...."

    Quite right, the group itself is but a part of the whole system and the equipment still has to work well.
    *
    Re: "...I think that the Italians do know what they are doing, in general, at least when it comes to machine design, but like any group of people, they probably dont have all the answers to all things espresso. ..."

    Well yes and no...they know what they are doing and do it for their own market and style of coffee which was one of the points in my last post. The rest of the world is not into the same style and steps have to be taken to "modify" how some models work to suit the differing markets. Some manufacturers are ok with this and others arent, depending on how much money is involved.

    Re: "...in general (my BZ)... peforms better than most of the prosumer E61 machines that I have heard about. *It is impossible to burn a shot if you forget to purge it. *Its temperature profile also makes it excellent for ristrettos...."

    Well yes and no, it depends on the individual point of view. Its nice that you have a well behaved machine. Some have machines that may not be so well behaved but can produce just as good a cuppa when managed properly. I for example dont burn any coffee with my E61 style machine. (Not all E61 style machines are "the same" anyway).

    So the end result is the same Im afraid, good coffee and good performance....which is better? Whichever one suits you as an individual, or according to the operators level of exertise, and not necessarily what someone says is "better" because the temp profile has been measured and is said to be more stable.


    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Boema

    FC,

    Fair enough, I think we have done that topic nicely. :)

    I must admit the La Cimbali machines tend to burn shots but I have learnt, the few times I have used them to pull good shots. Looking at how they are used though, the shots tend to get pulled long. I havent used them for ristrettos but I would imagine the temperature characteristics would work against them.

    If you have access to a La Cimbali Junior let me know how you go on ristrettos.

    The tendency now tends to be towards hot shots with some burning of the shots occuring.

    This is the fashion now... :)

    94+

    Regards,
    Grant

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    Re: Boema

    Just one more thing Grant before we put this one to bed.

    In these small circles there are people (such as ourselves) that place commercial type machines in domestic situations.

    Commercial machines are intended to be used continually. When they are used sporadically as happens in the home environment, this is the most likely time they will overheat and burn the coffee if not managed properly.

    So called "temperatrure stability", if measured in circumstances where the machine is not in continuous use then, or if taken out of context, is not relevant....what really is relevant is how the machine performs during commercial use.

    The machines I described earlier as being outrageous coffee burners, are models that gush steam and overly hot water & burn coffee even during continual commercial use, and in circumstances in this market where we are not using copiuos quantities of very dense / heavy oily robusta based blends and running our coffees longer than in the Italian market, these machines are simply not acceptable (tying back into the original topic).

    Regardz,
    FC.


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    Re: Boema

    One point to add for Grant to consider: If the Bezzera BZ35/40 style machines do represent the ultimate in temp stability, then why are Bezzeras top end commercial machines using detached thermosyphon type heated groups?

    Also the thermal stability of Cimbalis is reasonably well accepted. They can maintain a flat temp profile waylpast the 25-30 sec brew window.

    I think FC has made some very good points about operating environment, operator technique, etc.

    Finally I think most people arent technically inclined and just want to drink good coffee from an aesthetically pleasing accessory. Besides, beans grind and tamp are more likely to be affecting the quality of a brew, than the machine itself.

    PS its interesting that Rancilio HX machines are notorious for hot shots. But even they can be cured with a simple mod.

    Regards,

    Mark.

  21. #21
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    Re: Boema

    FC,

    The important thing is that a lot of people like myself are using what could be called small commercial machines, very happily.

    Manufacturers are also putting out machines for this class of user too, machines like the Reneka Techno which are probably more designed for the home user than a commercial user and come with good sized boilers and a rotary pump. Other machines like the La Cimbali Junior DT1 have boilers probably too small for commercial use (2.5L) but come with rotary pumps and are clearly designed for the home user.

    In my case, it was just a fortuitous purchase at a good price but having had one of these machines, I really wouldnt want to go back to a prosumer machine, especially one not plumbed in.


    I think it is very nice having a plumbed in machine with a rotary pump. Everything works nicely and it will last for years. My machine is nine years old but I can get every nut and bolt and part for it here in Australia.

    Grant

  22. #22
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    Re: Boema

    Sparky:

    Re the Bezzera commercial machines, it may just be the distance from the boiler to the group head that means they need a different type of heating to keep the group up to temperature. With a single group machine it is probably quite easy just to place the group and the boiler in close proximity and use the passive heating of the boiler.

    I disagree with the comment about the La Cimbali re temperature stability. ie. contradiction is that it produces hot shots but has an amazingly flat temperature profile!!

    I mean under theoretical conditions where you can drain 600mls/minute through the boiler, it maintains its temperature (after the initial cooldown), for 45 seconds or something. I read that review too in Home Barista but I hold that in my mind as the ultimate in meaningless comparisons for obvious reasons.

    Sparky, now you are the last person I know who would not be interested in the precise temperature profile of each and every machine on the planet. :)

    Grant


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    Re: Boema

    Im the last person to bag the Bezzeras as Ive also dissected mine and can concur about the group and shot temps being well targeted. But I also believe that each machine is different and may take a different operator technique to achieve the best performance. Maybe Bezzeras are HX machines for dummies, but I have seen Giotto temp profiles that are flat and stable to less that 1 deg C! I havent seen that with my Bezzera. Also there are well established protocols for operating pro-sumer E61 machines to achieve any desired operating temperature. There are people operating such machines with a precision that Ill never achieve with my machine. For me, I take the technological solution and will go dual boiler with PID control. Then I can focus on the rest of the equation and leave the machine to do its thing.

    As for the plumbed in option. Its not what Im after. There are more options out there than just vibe vs rotary pump. Have you thought about a DC motor driven gear pump? They are virtually vibration free and can be used to provide pressure feedback to give you what ever operating pressure you desire. That then decouples pressure and flow, controlling yet another variable. There are a lot of solutions out there just waiting to be implemented.

    Regards,

    Mark.

  24. #24
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    Re: Boema

    Hi Guys

    Would you consider a 2nd hand Boema to be a good bang for $$ unit?

    Whats the average 2nd hand $$ ?

    Dont mind fixing one up etc.

    Craig A

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    Re: Boema

    Craig,

    later model Bo-Emas are quite nice machines if placed in the right situations as are many others but this is an impossible question. Just like anything else it depends on the individual machine, ie age Vs model type Vs condition Vs asking price Vs price accepted.

    A price you are happy to pay with might be someone elses rip off price...for any brand/ model.

    Just remember the smallest Bo-Ema is still a full size commercial machine and in 99% of all cases, Bo-Emas require plumbing & drainage connections so in home use you can expect a "larger" body than the small Italian semi commercials, and all the usual caveats apply about using a commercial machine in a domestic situation....some as already discussed above.

    Regardz,
    FC.

  26. #26
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    Re: Boema

    Craig:

    The only owner of one that I know is Andy Freeman. Ask him about it.

    I dont see any disadvantages with commercial machines, aside from the obvious ones ie. energy and space considerations.

    Grant

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    Re: Boema

    There are currently a couple of Boemas available on ebay. But the one that caught my eye is the Carimali Uno. They run a large 4 l boiler but are less than 30 cm wide and would look good in a home environment IMO. They also use a novel inductively heated group head (nice idea). Furthermore, the seller lives in the Gold Coast, so it may be possible to check it out if youre interested.

    Regards,

    Mark.

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    Re: Boema

    Sparky:

    It wouldnt surprise me if you even invent some new pressure/flow control technology!

    I think HX machine for Dummies isnt such a bad title for the Bezzera.

    Whether the Bezzera 40-P would reliably pour within first crack within a shot, I havent measured that yet. Remember the 40-P hx is nearly twice the size of other bezzera hx machines. I would guess it is close to that. Im not saying it necessarily the most accurate machine on the planet. It would be hard for instance to beat a brewtus for temperature contol. I am just at that sweet spot though where I am happy with the machine and can concentrate on other aspects of espresso making. One less variable to think about.

    Grant

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    Re: Boema

    I always love that when an existing CS member goes and signs on under a fictitious user name to do or say something that they wouldnt do under their own name.

    ;D

    Grant


  30. #30
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    Re: Boema

    When used in the environment they were designed for, continuous use in a commercial setting, Cimbalis do not run hot and will give an almost dead level temperature profile. When you have problems with them running hot is when they sit and idle between shots. The longer the idle time, the longer the purging shot(s) will need to be.

    Some of the newer single grouphead Cimbali models can not be run under continuous load as theyre a slightly scaled down version of their commercial line and as such may require a short recovery period between pulls. But they also will have the problem of running hot if left idling between shots for more than a brief period.

    Java "Loves his Cimbalis" phile

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    Re: Boema

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Where can I find some of those BS paper bags??? They may be the thing to store those extra beans!

    :D :D :D

    franjae



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