Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    74

    Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi,

    I am in the middle of a bout of upgraditis , and I was looking at the new machine from Quickmill the Vetrano Rotary . You dont really hear much about quickmill in Australia , will this machine be available in Australia ? A rotary pump is probably one of the only things that has been left out of the machines in the 2K price range .

  2. #2
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,768

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Hi Paul,

    I dont know that you would need a Rotary Pump for a Single Group machine? The main reason theyre used in multi-group commercial machines is because of their ability to produce high flow rates whilst still maintaining the nominal brew pressure of 9 BAR. Good quality Reciprocating (Vibe) Pumps are well and truly able to supply the necessary flow rates right down to 1-2 BAR and can easily maintain this at normal brew pressures.

    I would say that unless you just want to have a Rotary Pump for the sake of it, stick with the Vibe Pump machines for Single Group home-based espresso production. Theyre a little bit noisy for a few seconds per shot but some Rotary Pumps are also noisy (they can make a kind of high pitched whining noise as the pressure increases) so I guess it comes down to what you want it for in the end :). All the best,

    Mal.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    74

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Hi Mal,

    From what I was reading the two main differences in the performance of the rotary and vibe pumps is that firstly as you have mentioned the vibe pumps are much louder . But also that the rotary pumps provides a constant pressure at the brew head right across the shot whereas the vibe pumps dont seem to be able to achieve this and the brew pressure can vary over the shot .
    The view I go from the coffeegeek website was that the more stable brew pressure gave shots with a creamier texture.
    Anyway I am by no means trying to say that I am an expert on the subject , but would like to hear other people opinion

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    441

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    from what I can gather, its easier to adjust the brew pressure of a rotary pump. With a vibe pump, you can regulate the maximum brew pressure through the OPV, but its a bit more hit and miss.

    Im sure Fresh_Coffee will jump in shortly to enlighten us.

  5. #5
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    a) Mals reply is spot on;

    b) Realistically, there can be no *noticeable* (to the palate/eye) difference between coffee made from a semi commercial machine with vibe Vs the same with rotary pump. There are many reasons, not the least of which are that you dont usually have 2 identical machines (one with each type of pump fitted) on the bench to compare from at the same time and, there are too many other little variables due to difficulty in obtaining identical operator technique one coffee to the next...to be able to attribute any differences in the resulting coffee...to the 2 different types of pump used.....

    We have this exemplified to us in house almost every day when we run our full size commercial 2 group training machine side by side with our semi commercial Diadema Junior & Unico Splendor machines on pre delivery test and during familiarisation sessions with new clients.... the one having a rotary pump & water connection, and the others having vibe pumps and water reservoir incorporated....they all make coffee to die for!

    c) Generally speaking (writing) vibe pumps are much more reliable in service in their respective equipment groupings (domestic & semi commercial) by far than rotary pumps are in their respective (commercial) equipment group.

    d) Opting for equipment for the sole reason that it has a rotary pump could get you
    1) a machine that might perform less satisfactorily "in toto" than competing machines with vibe pumps (eg ability to brew excellent espresso irrespective of type of pump fitted) and
    2) necessitates a dedicated plumbing connection in the house (rotary pump machines require connection to the mains). Having a water connection or not also has nothing to do with performance of the said equipment in terms of its actual ability to brew a quality coffee or for that matter, in the ability of the machine to be used to entertain a group of guests (ie capacity).

    Realistically, in domestic equipment, whether to opt for a rotary pump or not for technical reasons, is a non issue.

    Regardz,
    FC.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,946

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1142233387/0#4 date=1142340711

    We have this exemplified to us in house almost every day when we run our full size commercial 2 group training machine side by side with our semi commercial Diadema Junior & Unico Splendor machines on pre delivery test and during familiarisation sessions with new clients.... the one having a rotary pump & water connection, and the others having vibe pumps and water reservoir incorporated....they all make coffee to die for!

    <snip>

    Realistically, in domestic equipment, whether to opt for a rotary pump or not for technical reasons, is a non issue.
    I also agree. To give a bit more background, the major exponent of rotary pumps at home is a US barista called Chris Tacy. He reviewed a machine called the Fiorenzato Bricoletta on home-barista.com and concluded that, only WHEN FITTED WITH A WATER FILTER, the machine was capable of producing shots with a similar clarity of flavour to what he would expect from the better commercial machines. Now, the thing to know about Chris is that he is an absolute machine. Im pretty sure that he is whats called a super taster (google it!) and has barista skills that surpass most of us. He was kind enough to offer us advice on buying a machine for my old boss new cafe and he also knows the ins and outs of everything espresso. For us mere mortals, his findings are probably irrelevant. If you get up to a skill level where they are relevant, you have to remember that its a two-way street; enhanced clarity of flavour will magnify defects in your technique and beans.

    The main reasons for a rotary pump are (a) noise and (b) the ability to plumb in the machine. Most cafes mount their pumps in the cabinet below the machine to further dampen noise and you should be able to do this with a vibe pump as well. Im not sure if vibe pumps are plumbable properly ... Note that it is essential to plumb rotary pumps. If they run dry, they die.

    I think that there is a quickmill importer, but they dont get the premium machines designed by Chris Nachtrieb. If you want them, best to drop an email to Chris himself. You probably will buy directly from Quickmill, will pay an arm and a leg and will not have warranty support.

    I think that the Fiorenzato Bricoletta is availalbe in Australia and is relatively cheap - google it. Make sure that you ask about service and availability of parts. Last I heard, a rotary Expobar dual-boiler was also available from Forsyths.

    Cheers,

    Luca

  7. #7
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Thanks Luca....availability of good local service backup & "commonality" of a particular model in the local market is a most important issue...I would rather see a client seek out & purchase a model that is well thought of and is commonly available locally.

    Suggest Paul give 2muchcoffeeman a call...particularly if you are in Melbourne (?).

    Regardz,
    FC.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,176

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary


    First of all I also agree with most of what was said above by Mal, FC and Luca and Id like to add a few extras. As far as taste is concerned, Jim Schulman and Ken Fox did a side by side comparison of two Cimbali Juniors, one fitted with a vibe and one with a rotary and found no systematic difference in taste. Thats as close as youll probably get to sorting out this question.

    However, it is true that the vibe pump can be loud (depending on its environment) and may not offer proper pressure regulation if relying on the factory setup. Most home machines have some form of overpressure releif valve. While they are not designed for pressure regulation, they can be used for this. This was the way the brew pressure on the vibe Cimbali Junior was set in the comparison above. However, out of the box, most machines are not set up for this and consequently can brew at pressures up to 12 bar. I found this in a Silvia I bought last year, when I compared it to my pressure modded Gaggia Classic. The Gaggia could produce thick creamy espresso, compared to the thin Silvia extraction (ristretto pours using a double basket, ie 30 ml in 30 sec). This is precisely the region where the vibe pump will produce excess pressure if not regulated in some way. Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically. In contrast a rotary has no trouble handling this. So at the end of the day, if the pressure relief valve is set by someone who knows what theyre doing, a vibe pump can produce a very stable pressre platform (see my pressure profiles on the Faema Family thread).

    Now the rotary has ample capacity to handle a single group and the pressure wont be upset if the boiler autofills during a shot. However, the pressure bypass is usually set at 9 bar gauge pressure. That means that if you plumb it in, youll have to reduce the bypass setting as the total pressure will be 9 bar plus the line pressure. This is no drama if fitted by a technician. If you do it yourself, youll need either a brew pressure gauge on the machine or a pressure reading portafilter. Once thats accomplished, the rotary will maintain a constant pressure over any flow rate you choose way beyond reason (as its a high capacity pump). However it has the minuses that Luca mentioned. It really should be plumbed in as most require some back pressure to operate. That said, if youre buying a machine to fill a gap in a kitchen and you dont mind drilling some holes in your bench, then its a great way to go to get nice quiet operation.

    So I think the bottom line is that a rotary pump is more a convenience thing. A plumbed in machine is nice in that you dont have to fill in reservoirs and empty drip trays. Its also usually considerably quieter to run making more of a hum than a rattle. However in terms of taste quality, I believe it has all been said above.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    441

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    so there you have it.

    Just a thought: If I take the vibe pump out of my machine, to install it under the bench, in a well insulated box (to minimise the noise) ... will it still work ok? Will it still suck water out of the reservoir? Will it still provide the right pressure???

    Just curious.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    485

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    mattyj,

    Dan Kehn did that to his La Valentina/Diadema Jnr. See below photo.
    Not too sure about water supply though...? ie machines reservoir or mains or a water bottle setup.


  11. #11
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    tHE WAy IT IS SET UP IN THE PHOTO ABAVE WOULD APPEAR TO INDICATE (OOPS there goes the caps lock again) the thing is connectd to the mains.....although thats not how I would do it...I think my way is better ;D, and it looks like whoever they are, theyre still trying to work out the best way but havent got there yet......... ;) !!!


    Matty to answer your question, there is no reason why what you suggest shouldnt work just fine in terms of having the vibe pump suck from the original resevoir in the machine OR, to have it suck from a container placed next to the pump under bench or on the floor directly below....thats basically how vending machines operate / vibe pump sucking from a container in the bottom compartment (basically at floor level) of the cabinet the machine sits on...

    Regardz,
    FC.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    485

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    FC,

    Any chance you would offer a slightly more detailed solution / best method for externalising a vibe pump?

    Have you had cause to perform such a transplant?

    Cheers mate.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    441

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    hey framey, thanks for that.

    Id actually seen the photo before ... but that was ages ago. Ive been kind of thinking it would be cool to nick one of those water cooler bottles from work, and use that as an under the bench reservoir. Less refilling! And theres a few hidden holes under the expobar body that seem just perfect for running lines through ... Ill have to pull it all apart one day and have a closer look.

    Ive already drilled a hole in the drip tray and built a drain, that runs down to a 9 litre container ... it works well, but in hindsight, its a bit of overkill for what it is ... heavy brass plumbing bits etc. And my silicone sealing job is a bit messy ...

    I guess the two main things I want to change on my expobar (for now) is the pump noise (hence the post above) and the reservoir refilling. A common thing on all vibe pump/non plumbed in domestic machines!

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    441

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    oh, and thanks FC!

  15. #15
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,768

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
    Hi Sparky,

    Regarding the first half of your statement above..... I have not experienced this after running several tests with my Mokita and Ulka Pump. In short, the pump is able to supply at a constant rate up until such time as the OPV cracks open and starts to bleed water back to the reservoir. I have found though, that if the water from the group and the OPV is collected into the same container at the same time, the actual water volume in total is unchanged, e.g. 100ml flow per 10 seconds. Of course, as the OPV starts to operate so then does the water volume through the Group decrease.

    Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    441

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1142233387/0#14 date=1142432362
    ...If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
    Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?
    Youd think so huh. But it happens. Not frequently (its happened to me once in the last 7 months), but it still happens. I guess if youre pulling lots of shots, theres no real need for a boiler refill, except for the evaporation thing. So it wont happen. But if youre pulling shots, steaming lots of milk and pulling more shots, all in succession, it may happen. Like I said, its happened to me once in the last 7 months.

    Initiating a boiler refill before pulling a shot (leave a minute or so for everything to recover) seems to do the trick ... like pre-heating your cups a minute or two before pulling your shot, that way you trigger a boiler refill.

    I get the impression from some of Mark Princes reviews on coffeegeek that pretty much every HX machine hes tested doesnt have some simple logic thing to prevent it (expobars, ecms, vibiemmes etc etc). Its funny to watch though ... a normal shot, flowing nicely, the pump changes pitch and suddenly the streams thin out dramatically. You stop the shot, but the pump keeps running ...

    I guess the solution is to be aware of the state of your boiler ... if you know it might probably need to take in a few mills shortly, run the hot water tap, or the steam for a second or two, to trigger it off. Then pull your shot. Ive sometimes thought of starting a stopwatch when my machine does a refill, letting it sit idle, and stopping the watch at the next refill. Im sure its probably 30 mins to an hour, from my days off when the machine has been on all day.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,176

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1142233387/0#14 date=1142432362
    Furthermore, the humble vibe pump is only just capable of providing a single group with the requisite flow rate and pressure. If the pump is also attached to a boiler autofill sensor for a HX machine, if the autofill engages during a shot, the pressure will drop dramatically.
    Hi Sparky,

    Regarding the first half of your statement above..... I have not experienced this after running several tests with my Mokita and Ulka Pump. In short, the pump is able to supply at a constant rate up until such time as the OPV cracks open and starts to bleed water back to the reservoir. I have found though, that if the water from the group and the OPV is collected into the same container at the same time, the actual water volume in total is unchanged, e.g. 100ml flow per 10 seconds. Of course, as the OPV starts to operate so then does the water volume through the Group decrease.

    Regarding the second half of your statement...... This would certainly be true if the flow to the Boiler from the Auto-Fill system was not controlled via some form of restriction or throttling that was proportional to the flow capacity of the pump rating. Alternatively, Im sure that some simple logic would be installed to ensure that the Boiler could not be filled during a pour otherwise, as you say, the brew pressure would fall away to almost nothing and I cant imagine that a well respected espresso machine manufacturer would design a system to operate in this way. It just defeats the purpose of buying a high quality HX machine to brew high quality espresso... doesnt add up :-?

    Cheers,
    Mal.
    Hi Mal,

    Both the Ulka and Fluid-o-tech pumps produce a flow that is inversely related to the pressure. It just so happens that for a flow corresponding to 60 ml in 30 sec (or thereabouts) these pumps produce about 9 bar of pressure. For a flow of 30 ml in 30 sec, they are closer to 12 bar (so cant really make good ristrettos or singles). Therefore it is often suggested to set the OPV to 9 bar (or thereabouts) so that you get a 9 bar brewing pressure for flow rates ranging from 0 to 60 ml in 30 sec. At a faster flow rate, the pressure will drop according to the inverse relationship mentioned. Thats what I mean when I say that the pump is only just capable of the requisite performance. In contrast a rotary pump will maintain 9 bar (if set there) for flows ranging from 0 to 1 litre in 30 sec, which well and truely covers the useful flow range for making espresso and related drinks.

    As MattyJ mentioned, simultaneous brewing and boiler autofilling is pretty rare. I have found no flow restrictors in my BZ35 in the boiler filling circuit (a light commercial $3500 machine). I also have never experienced simultaneous brewing and autofilling, but I have experienced simultaneous flushing and autofilling where the flowrate through the group drops to nothing. While brew path priority logic may be realtively simple to implement, it seems that many machines dont have it. Thats why quite a few people complain about vibe pumps in the US. In the case of a rotary pump, it can easily handle both tasks and the 2-way valve probably provides enough flow restriction to maintain a constant brew pressure, so such logic isnt necessary. So the lack of a brew path priority logic circuit might just reflect that most machines are scaled down commercial machines using off-the-shelf commecial components.

    Maybe youve identified a design niche, Mal ;)

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,572

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    What Ive done with my machine (a 2 group Cimbali M-28 Basic) is to adjust the autofill sensor so it doesnt kick the pump on until the water level in the boiler is down to a third of the way between the min and max fill levels and then follow a set regimen when pulling a shot:

    • Fill the cup(s) from the hot water tap while purging the group for 13 seconds
    • Weigh and grind the coffee
    • Purge the group for 8 seconds
    • Dose and tamp the grounds in the PF
    • Empty the cups of the hot water
    • Pull the shot
    • Measure out the milk and froth is while the shot is being pulled
    • Wipe the steam arm clean with a wet towel
    • Make the drink(s)
    • Rinse the steaming pitcher and put back in fridge
    • Knock out the puck and clean the group and PF (a full brushing and backflush with just water)
    • Fill a shot pitcher from the hot water tap and purge the steam arm into it and then use the water to wash away any debris left on the drain tray from the group cleaning
    • Use the manual fill lever to bring the boiler level back up to just below maximum


    Following this regimen the pump will never kick on in the middle of a shot here.

    Even if I forgot to refill the boiler after the previous pull the boiler has enough capacity to get at least 2 and usually 3 cycles of this before the level falls enough for the autofill to kick in. If I forgot to refill the boiler at the end of the previous cycle I have to shorten my purges by a bit on the next one to compensate as it does affect the temp of the group and hence the shot.

    While doing all this is not required, as the Cimbali has more than enough power to fill the boiler while pulling shots and steaming milk all with the boiler temp never coming close to falling out of the green zone, doing so (along with precise measurements of the coffee used and a consistent tamp pressure) gives me exact reproducibility of the conditions for each shot allowing me to pull consistently great (dare I say God?) shots with all the variables being kept to an absolute minimum.

    Obviously youll need to come up with your own series of steps as every machine and the way its used is different, but if you get into a set regimen for pulling a shot and adjust your autofill sensor to an appropriate level you can avoid ever having the pump kick on in the middle of a pull. :)

    Java "Its all about consistency" phile

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    441

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    1 litre in 30 seconds ... thats a big, watery shot!

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,176

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Correction: There is indeed a flow restrictor in the boiler fill path (which makes sense, as an unrestricted rotary can provide a huge flow). For the poor old vibe, the jet doesnt provide enough load to prevent the boiler fill spoiling the flow to the group.

  21. #21
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,768

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1142233387/15#16 date=1142479034
    Maybe youve identified a design niche, Mal ;)

    Cheers,

    Mark.
    No worries Mark :),

    I understand all the pump characteristics youve explained above by the way. It seems really cheap for a manufacturer, to not install the simple, prerequisite logic that would make Boiler Filling on a Vibe Pump system a non-event. It would be so simple and straight forward to do. Oh well, never mind.... Ill wait until I have my own HX machine to play with one day :P, and look into the possible options at that time.... thats a ways off yet unfortunately :(,

    Mal.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,176

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1142233387/15#20 date=1142516380

    No worries Mark :),

    I understand all the pump characteristics youve explained above by the way. It seems really cheap for a manufacturer, to not install the simple, prerequisite logic that would make Boiler Filling on a Vibe Pump system a non-event. It would be so simple and straight forward to do. Oh well, never mind.... Ill wait until I have my own HX machine to play with one day :P, and look into the possible options at that time.... thats a ways off yet unfortunately :(,

    Mal.
    Hi Mal,

    I knew you understood pumps. I was just clarifying where I was coming from. I agree, such a simple additional circuit would be easy to implement. The Brewtus (at least in the US) has a brew element priority logic to prevent both elements switching on at the same time. But thats a more immediate and constant problem. I guess simultaneous boiler auto-filling and brewing is pretty rare, so not worth a little bit of engineering.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  23. #23
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Re:"........ I guess simultaneous boiler auto-filling and brewing is pretty rare, so not worth a little bit of engineering......"

    Korreket!

    regardz,
    FC.

  24. #24
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Sorry to come in late here. Something to keep in mind is that a vibratory pump is noisier in itself, not simply because it causes the housing to vibrate. So if you mount it under the cabinet or in some other external location you will--unless that location is very well insulated--have more noise than with a similarly-mounted rotary.

    Who could ask for a quieter home machine than the Vetrano? The loudest thing I hear with mine is the movement of water through the group.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,334

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    wow....im wasted but still on CS .I had a laugh...just got home and bored.

    anywho...arent there rotary non-plumb machines like the cimbali junior and iberital lanna?

    =]

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,673

    Re: Quickmill Vetrano Rotary

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Aaaaah drunken posting Wushoes ;D I hope you have had a sleep by now and your head doesnt hurt to much ;) ::)

    I have always thought that plumbing in a machine would be great, except for Adelaides awful awful water requiring us to use filtered or rain water.

    Also, if you decide to sell the house and move to another what do you do? Leave the machine behind to new owners who may or may not appreciate it :oor take it with you leaving behind the ugly pipes etc?

    I must be a tad hungover myself to be thinking of these things at this point in time



Similar Threads

  1. Quickmill superautomatic MOD.8700 ??
    By martrix in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 21st July 2015, 09:26 PM
  2. Quickmill Anita?
    By Warmess in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 24th June 2009, 12:16 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •