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Thread: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

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    ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just had the element in my 6 month old Giotto replaced.
    went to collect it and to my horror was hit with an $80 + GST labour charge.

    Rang ECM who said that this was between me and the supplier.

    Any thoughts. Is this normal. Is it the standard "commercial warranty". Might be a negotiating point when you are buying a machine. Make sure you know what the score is in this department. The ECM guy said that there was a less than 2% failure rate on Giottos (Giotti), so as usual I got the lemon. Also - they adjusted the pressure to be between 1.2 bar and 1.3 bar (initially it was bang on 1.1) Any thoughts?

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Quote Originally Posted by el espressio link=1147416357/0#0 date=1147416357
    Just had the element in my 6 month old Giotto replaced.
    went to collect it and to my horror was hit with an $80 + GST labour charge.

    Rang ECM who said that this was between me and the supplier.

    Any thoughts. *Is this normal. *Is it the standard "commercial warranty". *Might be a negotiating point when you are buying a machine. *Make sure you know what the score is in this department. The ECM guy said that there was a less than 2% failure rate on Giottos (Giotti), so as usual I got the lemon. *Also - they adjusted the pressure to be between 1.2 bar and 1.3 bar (initially it was bang on 1.1) Any thoughts?
    ECM supplies machines with a 12 month parts warranty and reputable suppliers (like me ;)...and FC for that matter) add our labour free of charge should a fault repair be required during the warranty. Suppliers who dont know their stuff have the option of buying with a parts and labour warranty if they wish.

    I cannot understand why the element should not be warranted and I would query that. It could only fail due to a manufacturing fault or defective boiler water sensor IMHO.

    I am certain that ECM will supply the element free of charge to the supplier...Perhaps you paid the $80 for the 15-20 minutes it took your supplier to replace the part?

    I think it sounds like you could have chosen a better, reputable dealer? I guess if you pushed to save bucks and buy bargain basement, then its not all that surprising that a less scrupulous supplier might try this on... ::)

    CS members have the opportunity to buy at great prices via this forum and we suppliers have great incentive to do our absolute utmost to provide a good deal and good service. A few dollars saved may well come back to bite- as it seems may have happened this time......

    Perhaps this may be a lesson to any who feel the need to go in agressively to save that last few cents.... Yet again, a case of caveat emptor...

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1147416357/0#1 date=1147417234
    ECM supplies machines with a 12 month parts warranty and reputable suppliers (like me ;)...and FC for that matter) add our labour free of charge should a fault repair be required during the warranty.
    This is what I suspected. I kind of assumed that a warranty implied labour.

    Chris wrote :
    I am certain that ECM will supply the element free of charge to the supplier...Perhaps you paid the $80 for the 15-20 minutes it took your supplier to replace the part?
    Yes, thats right. It was a labour charge. Oh well - thats only $400 per ::) hour


    Chris wrote:
    I think it sounds like you could have chosen a better, reputable dealer? I guess if you pushed to save bucks and buy bargain basement, then its not all that surprising that a less scrupulous supplier might try this on... ::)

    I certainly didnt hassle for a crazy deal - paid a fair price, and it is a large concern here in Newcastle. I just would have thought that thered be a stamp on the receipt saying something like "Please be aware that your !2 month warranty is for parts only. We do charge for labour."


    Chris wrote:
    CS members have the opportunity to buy at great prices via this forum and we suppliers have great incentive to do our absolute utmost to provide a good deal and good service. A few dollars saved may well come back to bite- as it seems may have happened this time......

    If I had bought from 2MCM or FC (only a fool would not have this preference if they are part of this forum), I would have had to have worn freight charges to and from Sydney/Melbourne and Newcastle, and I know that they would be huge. For anyone who has never picked up a Giotto or similar, the weight will amaze you. They are HEAVY. A bit like carrying a bag of concrete.


    Chris wrote -
    Perhaps this may be a lesson to any who feel the need to go in agressively to save that last few cents.... Yet again, a case of caveat emptor...

    I didnt do this, but part of the reason for my post was so that people would be aware that there are some "issues" relating to how warranties are applied. I think our sponsors would be wise to make customers aware that they are not in the business of charging for labour during the warranty period if thats their position.



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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Fyi overnight freight charges are $50 to Aust capital cities and surrounding areas. Road freight can be even cheaper. My policy in cases of "remote" sales is to ask owners to take their machine to the local agent if this will be a more economical option....and then foot the bill myself...

    Those considering a machine can buy with confidence- if it breaks down, both FC and I will be there for you...

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Generally you have the right to expect a 12 months parts AND labour warranty on pretty much anything you buy, particularly if its from a reputable brand and/or retailer. Although not specifically enshrined in law, thats pretty much an expectation that most State consumer affairs deparments will say youre entitled to. It varies from State to State (in SA they tend to be a bit useless) but itd be worth a call. Id venture to suggest that theyd say paying $2500 for a coffee machine machine entitles you a decent warranty.

    It comes down to a retailers responsibility to provide you with a product thats of merchantable quality. In other words, if the product fails, they are required to rectify the fault. A reasonable expectation is that both parts and labour would be covered for any faults. Such a warranty is a de facto standard, and if you wanted to make a case, you would argue that the onus is thus on the retailer to inform you that they do not offer a standard warranty.

    Failing that your option is to flame them here and elsewhere. The retailer has forgotten the old adage: "for every dollar you give away, you get a hundred back: for every buck you steal, youll lose a thousand"


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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    el espressio,

    I would start by looking at the warranty card in the box with your machine. Read it carefully and see what the terms are. If replacing the element is within the terms of your warranty then you should not have paid for that element and now should be entitled to a refund.

    I would go back with the warranty card and show them! If that doesnt work tell them that you will discuss them LOUDLY on the CS forum and will go to the dept of Consumer Affairs and make a formal complaint.

    Grant

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    I agree with what Grant said.

    You pay over 2 grand for a machine and under warranty they charge you!! But if you buy a Sunbeam for 600 bucks they happily replace the whole thing if it goes wrong? How does that figure? A friend of mine had the Sunbeam break down and the store he bought from replaced no questions asked.

    Id be pretty upset if I had a warranty claim and to get it fixed they charged for it. What the...?? If they dont want to fix them, then they shouldnt sell them, I think.

    Go and demand better service, I say. Its your money, after all! ;)

    My scooter broke down under warranty, and it was a pretty major job too. I can tell you right now I didnt pay a cent for any labour costs and nor would I have done so!!

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    If you paying labour are the Ts and Cs that you agreed to then thats going to be problematic. Still ... it sounds like a heating element that failed within 6 months is not "of merchantable quality" as required under the Trade Practices Act: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/tpa1974149/s71.html (Damned law skool; a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing)

    ... more to the point, could you tell us who you bought it from so that we can decide whether or not their name should be mud pending how they deal with your service charge?

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    I reiterate that that the issue here lies with the supplier and purchaser and the relationship formed or lack thereof...ECM is not to blame- they offer us the option of purchasing a parts and labour warranty, or at a lower price, parts only and to either provide the labour free or charge for it... Failures are possible with any machinery. Fortunately, they are very rare with the Giotto...

    A case study for CS members:

    I sold a giotto to to a CS member a couple of months ago. We discussed water quality at the time and the need to use water of satisfactory quality. A couple of weeks ago, a "problem" occured with the machine in that it would power up, and occasionally produce a shot, but would generally not run at all.

    I asked the member to bring the machine in, pulled it down and could see nothing other than a little residue that may or may have not been algae on the tank water level probe. I ran over 500g of coffee through the machine whilst it was pulled down and could not replicate the fault....and then had the owner collect the unit. He did not get a single shot from it once he returned home and was unable to make coffee for his dinner party that night....So, he called again last Sunday....I was mortified, loaded my machine into my car and drove out for 30min to exchange my personal machine with his- I didnt want him to go without coffee...

    Whilst in the car, something came to mind. ....In response to my algae question/observation, the owner mentioned that he used filtered water and that he had recently changed the two under bench canisters as they were filthy. *I had run the machine with tap water on my bench and all was well....We can see where this is leading...

    I called on my way and suggested that he try the machine with tap water and asked him to call me if anything changed. As I drove up his street, the phone rang...BINGO! -problem solved....His too clean water had no ions or solids in it after the cartridge change....and was unconductive...no signal, machine thinks no water and no go....A warranty issue or not???

    Now most would agree that I would have been well within my rights to charge labour for the initial service and then travel + labour for the callout which was not required....but it was all part of the service in my view of the warranty on the machine. Perhaps an account in the order of $300 might have been appropriate in this example....but the work was done gratis and with pleasure.

    This example may be a tad extreme, but the buyer was fair. He didnt screw me down for a rock bottom price and that made me more inclined to assist. Hopefully he will refer his friends to me when they want a machine....

    Many/most of the enquiries received by sponsors here are along the lines of "How cheap??" This forces sponsors to try to compete with sites such as evilBay and cut costs. One way of doing so is to sell machinery with a parts only warranty, and then bill the owner for labour if anything fails- warranty period or not. *At the price paid for this combo, the dealer margins were tiny and the added costs and outcomes do not surprise me in the least.

    When you buy, buy at a fair price and then you can expect a fair level of service in return....Make sure that you are comparing apples with apples when you check price. If your dealer is unable to provide service, insist on a back to factory warranty. It will cost both you and the dealer extra. You gets what you pays for....

    I repeat that Talk Coffee, Cosmorex and Coffeetraining operate with integrity. We will assist whenever we can if everyone operates in a fair and reasonable manner...but we also need you guys to be prepared to play fair! *We cut our costs to the bone, we then go out of business and everybody loses... ;)

    Another lesson in caveat emptor, I say. End of rant ;)

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    The company I bought my Giotto and ECM grinder from would appear to have a large slice of the commercial servicing contracts here in Newcastle - I often see their sticker on machines in cafes and restaurants.
    I wont name them, but Ill tell you that I paid $2200 for the Giotto Premium and $700 for the ECM Best grinder. I think that this was a good and reasonable price. I did not think to ask if the warranty included labour, as I assumed that it did, as most of us would. Shall not be so trusting in the future. I wish they had offered me two prices - and been upfront, quoting one price for with a labour inclusive warranty and one for what I got. I probably would have coughed up another hundred, so Im rationalising it by thinking that if it lasts another six months with no repairs I did anyway, if you know what I mean.
    There is nothing in the documentation that states that the warranty is one thing or another, but when I rang ECM they told me that the matter of labour warranty is between the consumer and the seller. I will state that they had NO INTEREST at all in my complaint and any suggestion of a refund under the name of goodwill was not something theyd consider. I kind of gather (unhappily) that a standard "commercial warranty" may be parts only. I did make a fuss when I went to pick it up, but got nowhere - was met with the predictable shrugs and mutterings. They fixed it quite quickly, and the technician is a really nice bloke - and he seemed to be stuck in the middle.

    Thanks for those of you interested enough to respond with your thoughts. Im thinking that $3000 for the combination I have is a pretty good deal anyway, so Im trying to think more about how good that PNG is as a single origin, rather than business practices that would make most of us cringe!

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    I am pretty disgusted to be honest that anything is legally allowed to be sold in Austalia without a parts and labour warranty.

    (Inappropriate posting edited by 2mcm)

    End of my rant. *I think Id rather buy a Sunbeam!

    Grant

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1147416357/0#10 date=1149315744
    I am pretty disgusted to be honest that anything is legally allowed to be sold in Austalia without a parts and labour warranty.
    .....<snip>End of my rant. *I think Id rather buy a Sunbeam!

    Grant
    Might I suggest that those who have purchased a Hottop or Gene cafe and a whole heap of other equipment owned by CS members most likely have NO effective warranty.

    Buy from a reputable retailer who backs up with a parts and labour warranty.

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    It was clearly understood by me when I bought my Hottop that they would supply the parts and that the user, that is me would install it. They have extensive on line guides on how to replace parts.

    I think it is very shortsighted for ECM to sell anything without a parts and labour warranty as it shows a lack of faith in the product or equally bad a lack of concern for the customers.

    If a supplier then sells the ECM without a full parts and labour warranty I think that this should be made clear to the customer at the time of sale.

    Remember that 99% of all consumer electrical goods do have parts and labour warranties.

    Grant

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Quote Originally Posted by wattgn link=1147416357/0#12 date=1149317802
    It was clearly understood by me when I bought my Hottop that they would supply the parts and that the user, that is me would install it. *They have extensive on line guides on how to replace parts.

    I think it is very shortsighted for ECM to sell anything without a parts and labour warranty as it shows a lack of faith in the product or equally bad a lack of concern for the customers.

    If a supplier then sells the ECM without a full parts and labour warranty I think that this should be made clear to the customer at the time of sale.

    Remember that 99% of all consumer electrical goods do have parts and labour warranties.

    Grant
    Valid point Grant.

    ECM offer the retailers (like me) the option- buy with parts and labour warranty or buy more cheaply with a parts only warranty and provide the labour ourselves. This is the way of the world with coffee machinery and applies to all prosumer machines as far as Im aware. *I buy this way (with parts only commercial warranty) as I dont need nor nor do I want ECM to do the work for me; I dont need to pay for it and my clients generally dont need to return their machines to Sydney. If I cant repair a machine, I return it to ECM for repair and I pay the account. The client receives a free repair.

    Unscrupulous retailers might choose to pull the wool over the eyes of unaware buyers and shaft them when the time comes for a repair. They do this to get a sale and they cut their margins to the bone to do it. I know this happens, because it costs me sales.

    I say again, CS members be aware and choose a reputable retailer.

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Hey Chris!

    Thanks for sharing with us just how far some "reputable retailers" are prepared to go for their customers! I found it an encouraging read, personally and sadly, I wish that there were more like you out there.

    Cheers.

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Chris:

    The retailer is clearly at fault in this case. I guess with most of us buying electrical goods from retailers such as Good Guys and Harvey Norman, Myer and the like we are used to scrupulous sellers who will fully backup all their products. We sometimes fail to appreciate the good service we are given at competitive prices.

    When we start dealing with coffee machines we are dealing with small to medium sized businesses who are a bit of a mixed bag. Some like you are professional and scrupulous in their dealings and others clearly are not.

    I am appalled that anyone could contemplate selling a machine without a full parts and labour warranty regardless of whether they got the machine from their wholesaler without a full warranty.

    Needless to say if they did sell it with a parts only warranty then it should be made clear to the purchaser at the time of purchase.

    When dealing with mainstream consumer electrical products whether it be an air conditioning unit, a toaster or anything else we all make the assumption that a parts and labour warranty is always included, no questions asked or need to be asked.

    One issue here is that we CS people are buying machines from suppliers that also sell commercial equipment on commercial terms which are not like the terms we are used to as retail consumers.

    This is a BIG issue really. ie. I spend $4000 on a new machine and then find that the boiler is faulty and needs to be replaced and I get a $300 bill for the labour I would not be happy.

    This means that any CS user contemplating buying expensive equipment needs to carefully check the terms before purchase.

    Caveat Emptor

    Grant


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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Agreed Grant.

    Many suppliers do mainly sell commercial machinery- with commercial warranty. As a cafe owner, we know thats the gig...unless we choose to pay extra for a maintenance agreement. I wonder if this is how it works for other industries? The motor vehicle industry comes to mind. Does the dealer cover labour or does the manufacturer fit the whole bill for warranty repairs? Can anyone fill us in??

    Prosumer coffee machinery should have full parts and labour warranty if purchased from a dealer. You generally lose that right if you purchase via evilBay and rightly so.....No matter how you buy, it pays to check carefully. Ask your vendor all of the questions before you buy and get it in writing on your purchase documents ;)

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Im particularly interested, Chris, in your note about the customer using water that was just too clean, and his being able to get started again using standard tap water.
    Up here in the Blue Mountains our tap water is very pure, with little chlorine, and I dont think its very hard. I use it by just keeping an open jug filled so that any chlorine will dissipate overnight, and my Pavoni Pro seems to relish it.
    The one time I bought specially filtered water, I was really disappointed with the result. The espresso I pulled using it seemed to lack character -- was not nearly as rich and satisfying as with my old tap water. Strange, isnt it ....

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony link=1147416357/15#17 date=1149492472
    Im particularly interested, Chris, in your note about the customer using water that was just too clean, and his being able to get started again using standard tap water.
    Up here in the Blue Mountains our tap water is very pure, with little chlorine, and I dont think its very hard. I use it by just keeping an open jug filled so that any chlorine will dissipate overnight, and my Pavoni Pro seems to relish it.
    The one time I bought specially filtered water, I was really disappointed with the result. The espresso I pulled using it seemed to lack character -- was not nearly as rich and satisfying as with my old tap water. Strange, isnt it ....
    Anthony- just a case of the water having nothing in it. I recalled reading about reverse osmosis and the fact that it was a not a goer in machines due to it having nothing at all in it- so being totally unconductive. The espresso produced with this water is said to be "lifeless" also...In addition, reverse osmosis water is known to cause boiler leaching...

    Although your water is quite pure, its likely that there will be some solids in it- enough to conduct a small charge and keep a machine happy...

    The client had 2 x cartridge filters- clearly enough to get close to a reverse osmosis situation....

    Good thing I had the recall, or wed probably still be able to solve the problem *;) ;D

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    Re: ECM Giotto repair "Warranty"

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by el espressio link=1147416357/0#0 date=1147416357
    Just had the element in my 6 month old Giotto replaced.
    went to collect it and to my horror was hit with an $80 + GST labour charge.
    A positive result.

    Got a phone call this morning from the main man at the supplier who said hes been going through the invoices from last month and that Id been incorrectly hit with a labour charge for the repair and that I could come in and get the money refunded. So.... to draw a close on a very interesting topic, Coffeetech of Newcastle are back in the good books. Made my day!



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