Is this what you were looking at?http://www.cafeco.co.uk/pod/verona.html
Ive run into this interesting machine at a local interior furnishings shop. Its a Verona Expres 1gr E61 based machine. It has a largish 4l boiler and 1450W element, looks like its plumbed but seems to run with the standard Ulka vibe, rather than a rotary. Its price tag says $2950.
I havent been able to google up anything on this machine yet. It certainly looks the goods in that sterile stainless sort of way.
Is this what you were looking at?http://www.cafeco.co.uk/pod/verona.html
or something like this?
for more details- $2395 ex GST
ps if so, looks fantastic
Originally Posted by telemaster link=1155297538/0#2 date=1155373934
Yep, thats the beauty. Those prices are superb. I love the 4l boiler which is getting up to commercial 1gr size. Talk about flying under the radar. Still Im concerned about the apparent lack of web info on this machine. The build quality looked pretty good to me though.
ive got to say sparky it would interest me - it seems like a one group boema sort of deal- a little cheaper at that price
i think you need a boiler that size- the little prosumer 1.5 l things i think a re a bit disappointing- or maybe ive yet to try the right one
Brett- I have to disagree....Originally Posted by telemaster link=1155297538/0#4 date=1155421780
Guys, I suggest that you might stop simply analysing statistics and actually use these machines before you pass comment. I assisted on the ECM stand during the afternoon at the recent Sydney Rocks Aroma festival. Just as one example of how incorrect the above statement can be, we put over 12kg of beans through 3 Giottos and they produced sensational shots all day and coped comfortably. Now how many at home run those sorts of volumes?? The Giotto has a 1.5 litre boiler. Other great brands have a 1.3 litre boiler.
Get some good training and then try em and then comment :-? >:(
This is the old spanish made La Rocca. There was some problem over the la rocca name and the name was changed to verona.
Havent seen an example of this type of machine for a good five years or so and maybe they have been improved a lot since then however, their standard of build as I remember them was down right crappy, which is/was typical of Spanish manufactured machines at the time.
As with spanish machines in generel, the price is usually lower than equivalent Italian manufactured machines. They are the domain therefore of those that are excited by low prices or "value for money" and are prepared to sacrifice some standards to get a machine that will still make coffee and steam well, but wont look as good either from the outside or the inside.
In addition, the perceived value for money angle ( eg *you get 4 litres for not much more than the price of a 1.5 litre machine) is irrelevant in all but the busiest households (in terms of buying such equipment for personal rather than intended - probably office or very small cafe - use). More boiler capacity to heat up, more power consumption, MORE TIME WASTED waiting to make your 2 cuppas for the day, more space tied up on the bench.....*The old Size VS Quality argument.
A good, simple but extremely well made Italian 1.3 to 1.8 litre boilered semi commercial machine is hard to beat, and the style & standard of build are usually superb. I actually dont find anything disappointing about them particularly when they are used in the context for which they are intended, by someone who is well versed in their use.
All too often in these pages we are seeing judgements or comparisons made about various pieces of equipment based on either
a) a comparison of tech specs or
b) comparison of price
c) ability or inability to find information on the web.
Unfortunately, you cannot make a cup of coffee with "tech specs", and the price is the price is the price. *Someone who likes the 1900.00 should buy it....Someone who likes the 2900.00 should buy that instead. Dont end up with second best (for you) after being unduly influenced by a good smattering of a) b) & c).*
re 2muchcoffeemans comment- I did say:
or maybe ive yet to try the right one- perhaps the little millenium is less forgiving of my insconsistencies (is that possible?)
Its just that I find my large single boiler machine consistently easy and the larger 2 group bezzera easy and forgiving- and im still struggling with the millenium at work- hence my (probably incorrect) assumption that it was a size issue
I guess ive assumed that just because something is a hx machine doesnt mean there mightnt be more to the issue- like boiler size etc
still want to learn more!
Brett- I think the issue is much more likely the machine at work than prosumer HX machines or boiler size...perhaps its time to get it a full once over and service. There is no reason for it to perform badly other than incorrect calibration (was it bench tested??) or poor maintenance..
These machines- with the ecm as an example are more than capable of volume and consistency ;)
i think its the second- poor maintenance
ive suggested to the lady who bought it for us (fund raiser for the school i work for- it was bought for fundraising coffee mornings etc) that she offer to buy it back for herself- ive had to clean out a contaminated boiler twice in the last 6 months, and theres the issue of not easily removable shower screen (i think its attached to group head gasket- no screw) which i backflush but which may still have gunk under it
also hot water dispenser regularly used to heat milk (!!!)
wrong machine for the place
Brett- e-61 heads do not have a shower screen with screw. Suggest that you carefully lever the gasket out with a thin blade screwdriver and give it a good clean. A new shower screen and gasket will set you back approx. $20 and I would advise one....
Id be draining the boiler and giving it a good flush and also a descale as well as backflushing with a good chemical until everything runs spotlessly.....Sounds to me like she doesnt deserve to have the machine :(
2mcm, probably right re deserving
ive done drain and flush and descale, chemical backwash recently- last week
will try the gasket and screen clean- will source a new one
many thanks 2mcm
Unless you wish to spend time doing something that isnt necessary, except of course if you wish to learn about the equipment from an academic view point, I wouldnt bother removing the shower screen & group seal.
If backflushing with detergent has been done regularly enough ( OR if you have started to do this regularly enough) then you wont find anything in there behind the shower...the detergent is strong and strips out the coffee oil leaving everything quite clean. Basically you wont find anything in there to clear out.
Simply use a group head brush to soften grinds in the area around the seal, shower & group ring (the groove that the lugs engage into) then use the blind filter & do "the wiggle" to wash all that stuff out the bottom. Then do detergent backflush & whalla, thats enough.
If the machines had milk or detergent or whatever sucked into the boiler, depending on the degree of damage, flushing the boiler out externally using its own steam pressure to simply run water in & out the hot water pipe may/will not be good enough. In extreme cases we remove equipment to the workshop, fill the boiler (FULL to the top) with solution, leave to soak for an appropriate interval, remove the electric element & flush out with a hose over a sink for a period......... This kind of thing is normally the domain of a coffee machine service tech & some disassembly is required. On machines that have a removable boiler side plate, we may remove that & scrub by hand......
Usually this is accompanied by disassembly of the steam valve & piping to clear physically.
We do not "descale" commercial / semi-commercial / heat exchanger machines as this can cause problems of its own....
Best to feed the machines with softened water OR water that has been run through a "scale inhibiting" filter first. Any scale that may build up inside one of these boilers will remain basically inert & will not affect flavour of coffee. Attempts to descale can lead to the actual effect that the act of descaling is trying to counter against...& that is to soften/loosen up any built up scale & have it run through & block things up after the descaling operation. Check small black particles coming out in the water after a descaling operation, that werent in evidence before.
The proper management of these machines is relatively easy and you need do no more than do a deteregtn backflush on the group at an arbitrary chosen interval be that daily or weekly or whatever, use group brush as outlined above, wipe over with non abrasive materials and thats it.
The sucking back into the boiler of contaminants (milk, detergent etc) is the result of bad management / possibly due to lack of proper advice initially by the vendor, or lack of proper understanding by operators. It can be completely avoided (except perhaps in circumstances of plain bad luck) by
a) the operators managing steam output properly - ie not attempting to froth more volume of milk than the size of the machine will comfortably allow, & stopping their steaming before pulling most of the usable steam out of the boiler - again related to trying to steam too large a quantity of milk in one go, AND
bi) the operators opening the steam tap & bleeding ALL the steam out of the boiler when they are shutting off for the day and
bii) making sure the steam tap is openned when the machine is switched on again, and not closing it until a steady stream of steam is leaking out the pipe....
c) never placing the steam pipe into the milk unless the operator has firstly purged some steam out of the pipe & knows there is proper positive steam pressure in there.
This stops the possibility of vacuum forming in the boiler, which will otherwise suck milk back into itself causing the problems that have been outlined above with requisite necessity to repair.
Hope this helps all.
Like Chris and Attilio have already said, theres a lot more to it than boiler size. You need the boiler to, essentially, do two things - deliver water of the right temperature to the group and provide enough good steam to foam milk. But it isnt just the boiler that does this. When it comes to steam, a lot of it is about (a) matching the right tip to the wand and (b) varying (or learning) ones technique. As for temperature, there are a myriad of factors that come into play, none of which are commonly mentioned on spec sheets. For example, heat exchanger volume, positioning of the heat exchanger, pstat setting, group type and thermosyphon flow ... and Ive probably missed a bunch of things. I had the pleasure of playing around with a prototype prosumer HX the other day that was so tuned that it barely required a cooling flush at all; in fact, using it was a lot more like using a synesso multiple-boiler (tiny flush to clean the shower screen) than using the azkoyen HX that I used to work on (flush like 300mL until the massive amounts of steam subsided somewhat) ... and the shots from it tasted as good as what Ive pulled from a synesso. As far as I can tell, components for prosumer HX machines are mostly made by a small number of companies, so it is relatively easy to just buy all the components that you need and cheaply shove them in a box without giving a thought to how they will actually function (I wont mention any specific machines). Tuning them takes a lot more work. Unfortunately, for the consumer this means that it is vital to find a reputable vendor.i think you need a boiler that size- the little prosumer 1.5 l things i think a re a bit disappointing- or maybe ive yet to try the right one
A little trick that my boss taught me is to leave the blind filter with detergent in it locked in for 10 or 20 minutes. Doing this allows the detergent to really strip most of the oil and crud off from behind the shower screen without having to remove it and manually scrub. Id imagine that this technique would be most useful for machines like the millennium.and theres the issue of not easily removable shower screen (i think its attached to group head gasket- no screw) which i backflush but which may still have gunk under it
thanks guys for the advice re the millenium- i think ill try all again and then suggest really strongly that someone buy the unit and give it a good home so this doesnt happen again!
not me- ive already got too much realistically (not really- i love what the machines ive got do)
I wouldnt leave the detergent/blind filter on the group that long. The heat of the group will dry the detergent into place & make it difficult to strip it out on flushing with water only.
A better way of doing this is to apply the detergent with a little water in blind filter to the group, leave it locked into place (WITHOUT ofcourse activating the group/pump), but only until the detergent stops foaming out the exhaust. This might only be a couple or so minutes...depends.
In any case you watch it and start flushing once the foaming has stopped.
any one have any idea what the 18 month old millenium at work would be worth (clean and working well)- may have a buyer- to save it from further mishap?
From memory the RRP of a new millenium is somewhere around 22 or 2300.00.
Without seeing it, may I suggest that a fair price for both buyer & vendor could be in the vicinity of $1500.00 or $1600.00...no? Any less and I think the school loses out unnecessarily.
Wouldnt it be a better idea for the school to arrange proper training for those responsible for the machine, and keep it? *We deal with quite a few schools and their espresso machines are in the care & control of only a couple of people at each site, usually the teacher & aide running the hospitality course, and they really dont have any problems when managed in this way (ie when managed by a restricted number of "responsible" staff only).
i had said $1500 as a as a rough 60% before i posted this - but didnt really know
we have a few people interested but whether theyll buy?
re keeping it- with it the way it gets in between my surgery (read maintenance) the coffee from my sons saeco via venezia is superior- and id be happy to have coffee before and after work on my (clean) machines at home!
it just seems a pity for such a lovely thing to get like this- also workplace runs on such a shoestring budget (small private school) so training apart from via me out of question (no you dont steam from hot water outlet, no you dont fill large containers from water outlet, you have to wait for the machine to heat up, have to purge steam arm of steam and much afterwards etc etc- minor stuff for a pro instructor!!!)
Whoops, sorry! I didnt think anyone would take that suggestion verbatim. Well spotted, Attilio!Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1155297538/15#15 date=1155436341
Of course, what I meant was to do a clean water backflush or two first, then to put a bit of detergent in the blind filter, do a quick blip of a backflush (enough to discharge some foamy water), then to leave the blind filter in place with the detergent in solution and without the pump running. To find out how long to leave it for, you could always let it sit for three minutes, then pull it out, dump, do a clean water backflush and then repeat, noting how much crud the detergent solution dissolves each time. As long as the pump isnt running and as long as the detergent is in solution, you cant hurt the machine.