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Thread: HX boiler insulation results

  1. #1
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    HX boiler insulation results

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Recently we insulated the boilers of a Bezzera 2 group- approx 10 l boiler- and an ECM Botticelli- single boiler 400ml

    With the Bezzera there has been approximately 40% reduction in the time the heater is on in the boiler cycle.
    We used 3mm ceramic fibre paper- with it the boiler is only warm to the touch and the cup tray warm to hot- heat still comes from hx pipes etc and the bosses that pipes are bolted into.

    Unfortunately I didnt measure the Botticellis boiler cycle- suffice it to say that the machine was off for a few hours after morning coffee and I burnt my hand on the grouphead handling it! I turned it back on and it was back up to brew temp- 93 C -in a very short while
    If any botticelli owners can measure the boiler cycle I will give comparisons.

    The job was time consuming- the Bezzera is old and I didnt want to remove all the pipes (just did a few) in case of leaks, so there were lots of slits to allow pieces to fit around this and that. I wired around the boiler in three places in the middle, around each end, and various other parts.
    The paper must be handled carefully as tearing happens quite easily. If people were going to remove the pipes or had a single group the going would be much easier.
    Still a job worth doing!

    Brett

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Did you wrap the insulation around the boiler once or a couple of times since its only 3mm?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/0#1 date=1156058641
    Did you wrap the insulation around the boiler once or a couple of times since its only 3mm?
    Hey Coffee Kid
    just one wrap- the stuff is very high density- for me the issue was that I still wanted a warming tray.
    Interestingly, the 3mm keeps a very hot boiler (read instant burn) at just warm to the touch- any more insulation would probably be a waste.
    The paper is suitable for industrial ovens etc as far as I know

    see:
    http://www.unifrax.com.au/products.htm for ordering and:

    http://www.infraredheaters.com/550-k.htm for info

    Brett

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    So the blanket would just be to much? i thought the price for the paper and blanket are the same arnt they?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    not sure theres too mcuh difference- blanket can take ridiculous temps- blanket might be easier to use if u have more room for it
    brett

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Wow, 40% is a big drop, and should impact a lot on those cost calculations in the other thread.

    How much did the thermal stuff cost?

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    I talked with a rep from the manufacturer of the Durablanket S and Ceramic Fiber Paper and they recommended that space permitting (plenty of that in the Cimbali), I use the blanket rather than the paper as it will hold up to cutting and having to manipulate it into place around pipes and fittings much better.

    As Telemaster noted the paper tears quite easily, which can be a problem trying to fit it to the smaller boilers.

    As I recall from our convo the .25 inch paper was a better insulator than the 1 inch blanket. Because the blanket can be better molded to the boiler however, he figured that they would be about equal in energy savings.

    Java "Still playing with the idea" phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/0#3 date=1156063927
    So the blanket would just be to much? i thought the price for the paper and blanket are the same arnt they?
    The blanket is 2/3rds the cost of the paper.

    Java "Thinks the blanket would be easier to work with" phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    from my source same price per m

    here is an excerpt from brad attard, info@consolidatedrefractories.com.au


    >> Thank you for your enquiry. We are pleased to sell a
    >> small quantity of
    >> ceramic fibre. We find this is generally about 1
    >> metre x the width of 610mm
    >> x 25mm thick. I have a roll which I can cut if you
    >> need some this thick. I
    >> also have ceramic fibre paper at 3mm thick if this
    >> is of assistance. We sell
    >> the paper at $30.00 per metre and the blanket will
    >> also be $30.00 per metre
    >> both + GST. We ship by Couriers Please for most
    >> items at $12.50 + GST or can
    >> post at post cost + $5.00.
    >> If you require this item you need to be aware it is
    >> s man made fibre and may
    >> become a dust if not handled correctly of sealed in
    >> your application. I hope
    >> this is of some assistance and look forward to
    >> hearing from you again
    >> shortly if we are able to help.
    >> Best Regards
    >> Brad Attard

    it cost me $20 to get it couriered- next day dleivery from melbourne to sydney

    if i had the space id be using the blanket- it can be stretched and sewn with wire

    brett

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Hi all,

    Im buying a single roll CF Blanket, 6mm thick x 600mm wide x 7000mm (7 Metres) long for $20.00 plus about $8.50 postage from a place in Brisbane called "Total Refractory Management P/L".... to insulate the Bezzeras Boiler, the area around the Control Box and maybe some of the pipe-work. Depends how difficult access to some of the pipe-work will be as to how much of that I actually do.

    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    How do these blankets differ from fire blankets? I believe they are heat reflective/insulating, maybe one of these would also do the job, and you do see a similar kind of fabric used to insulate various heat-piping on things.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Hi everyone. This is my first post. I am a UK enthusiast who usually posts on a European forum, but has been a longtime reader at CoffeeSnobs. I hope you guys dont mind having a pom hanging around ;)

    We have been discussing insulating boilers here in the UK and one or two have gone ahead and done so. I have held off to date but am encouraged by the experiences of those on this thread. There had been some discussion here about any potential negatives to insulating, but I cannot think of any other than slow recovery from any overshoot on machines with PID control. Has anyone on CoffeeSnobs observed any negatives?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/0#11 date=1156183595
    Hi everyone. This is my first post. I am a UK enthusiast who usually posts on a European forum, but has been a longtime reader at CoffeeSnobs. I hope you guys dont mind having a pom hanging around ;)

    We have been discussing insulating boilers here in the UK and one or two have gone ahead and done so. I have held off to date but am encouraged by the experiences of those on this thread. There had been some discussion here about any potential negatives to insulating, but I cannot think of any other than slow recovery from any overshoot on machines with PID control. Has anyone on CoffeeSnobs observed any negatives?

    hi cakeboy, welcome
    - no problems with poms- my lovely partner who did the measuring and cutting for the insulation is from up north in england

    Brett

    negatives- only the time and the fact that we should have used latex gloves- a bit gritty and my partner got blisters (fixed with vitamin e cream)

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakal1 link=1156047023/0#10 date=1156174032
    How do these blankets differ from fire blankets? I believe they are heat reflective/insulating, maybe one of these would also do the job, and you do see a similar kind of fabric used to insulate various heat-piping on things.
    Gday Zakal1,

    Most Fire Blankets I have seen use a kind of woven cloth weave to make an actual woven cloth from fibreglass, mineral fibre or whatever. The Ceramic Fibre blankets I have seen are more like a tangle of fibres creating a kind of mat rather than a woven cloth. If you have ever seen the fibreglass Chopped Strand Mat used in boat and surfboard manufacture, it sort of looks like this but more densely packed.

    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/0#11 date=1156183595
    There had been some discussion here about any potential negatives to insulating, but I cannot think of any other than slow recovery from any overshoot on machines with PID control. Has anyone on CoffeeSnobs observed any negatives?
    Hi CakeBoy,

    You are most welcome to join our very enthusiastic coffee community here down-under [smiley=thumbsup.gif]. Hope you enjoy the experience ;D,

    Like you, I cant think of any real negatives associated with insulating the boiler and maybe even some of the pipe-work too for that matter. Obviously, the thermodynamics of the the system will be altered as such and if you have a PID Controller managing the boiler, then a bit more fine tuning will overcome most of any over-shoot problems. I tune my controller to respond to the dynamics of pulling shots anyway, not the straight out maintenance of a nominal boiler temperature.... this results in minimum over-shoot as a direct result anyway :),

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1156047023/0#13 date=1156250284
    Quote Originally Posted by Zakal1 link=1156047023/0#10 date=1156174032
    How do these blankets differ from fire blankets? I believe they are heat reflective/insulating, maybe one of these would also do the job, and you do see a similar kind of fabric used to insulate various heat-piping on things.
    Gday Zakal1,

    Most Fire Blankets I have seen use a kind of woven cloth weave to make an actual woven cloth from fibreglass, mineral fibre or whatever. The Ceramic Fibre blankets I have seen are more like a tangle of fibres creating a kind of mat rather than a woven cloth. If you have ever seen the fibreglass Chopped Strand Mat used in boat and surfboard manufacture, it sort of looks like this but more densely packed.

    Mal.
    Yeah, i see what you mean, and i suppose its not supposed to keep the fire going underneath the blanket, just smother it without burning.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    What is different if you insulate a PID boiler? is it harder to control or something?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/15#16 date=1156311086
    What is different if you insulate a PID boiler? is it harder to control or something?
    No CK,

    Not really. By insulating the boiler you are altering the thermodynamics of the original boiler and therefore, system design.... Since the original design takes into account normal thermal losses from the boiler and elsewhere. If you are using PID control to manage the Boilers operation then it would become necessary to retune the PID parameters in order to return the control profile back to where it was before. Not a big deal really,

    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Has anyone got some more timing data from an insulated boiler so we can translate it into a cost/month basis for 24/7 and 15/7 operation?

    Would love to hear from as many as possible.


    On another note, is it possible for the timing to be proporitonal to the thermal stability?
    Like, if the heating element is having to be switched on less, does it naturally flow that the machine is more thermally stable, and therefore better in that regard?

    Or is there an intervening factor im not considering?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakal1 link=1156047023/15#18 date=1156379650
    On another note, is it possible for the timing to be proporitonal to the thermal stability?
    Like, if the heating element is having to be switched on less, does it naturally flow that the machine is more thermally stable, and therefore better in that regard?

    Or is there an intervening factor im not considering?
    The range of temperature is set by the pressurestat - and the on/off points wont vary.

    It will take longer for the boiler to loose pressure (cool down) but the instant you start brewing or use steam the impact in instant... and the element will turn on (and the loss from those two processes is far higher than through lack of insulation.....)

    I intend to insulate my boiler to save electricity. The La Cimbali uses 4KW of power - A lot of which finds its way through the cup walming tray and into the room. I placed a towel on the tray below the cups and the off time increased by 50% :)

    The savings you would get will vary from brand to brand - depending how open the space is around the boiler and how easy convection currents are set up - which cools the boiler.

    In the case of the La Cimbali there are very significant savings to be had. :)

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    So you have to somehow reset your PID to go with the insulated boiler? like the offset or something rather?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/15#20 date=1156399042
    So you have to somehow reset your PID to go with the insulated boiler? like the offset or something rather?
    Hi again CK,

    No, you dont need to dial-in an offset.... It is a straight tuning of the PID parameters, probably just the Integral and Derivative. If you are unsure of what is involved with tuning or re-tuning a PID Controller, you probably need to do some study of the principles of PID Tuning, or get someone who is so versed to help you do it. Its a bit too involved to go into too much detail in this forum really. This "Primer" will give you some idea of whats going on hopefully...http://tinyurl.com/qmbst. All the best,

    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Hey Mal

    How would you acctually know what is the right Derivative and Integral for an insulated boiler?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/15#22 date=1156417564
    Hey Mal

    How would you acctually know what is the right Derivative and Integral for an insulated boiler?
    Hi again CK,

    Theres no definitive answer for this question that will satisfy all controller installations in all of the various machines on the market.... there are just too many variables. As I mentioned above, you really need to read up on basic PID Control and Tuning to have some grasp of what is going on.... that is, the actual physics in play,

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1156047023/15#19 date=1156388392
    I intend to insulate my boiler to save electricity. The La Cimbali uses 4KW of power - A lot of which finds its way through the cup walming tray and into the room. I placed a towel on the tray below the cups and the off time increased by 50% :)

    The savings you would get will vary from brand to brand - depending how open the space is around the boiler and how easy convection currents are set up - which cools the boiler.

    In the case of the La Cimbali there are very significant savings to be had. :)
    You might want to rethink doing this JavaB.

    Insulating the boiler itself is one thing, but placing a towel, or anything else, on the cup warming area to save electricity can be a damaging and even dangerous thing.

    When you insulate the boiler itself the heat is all contained with-in a space designed to be exposed to the temps involved, the boiler.

    When you insulate by placing a towel on the cup warming area the interior of the whole machine is kept warmer. This means your pump, motor, control circuits, and wiring are all much warmer. Not only will these parts be hotter, they will also be in a more corrosive environment as there will be a higher humidity level inside the machine. Blocking off the vent holes will not only trap the heat but also the moisture that is released into the interior of the machine every time you pull a shot. With the vents blocked off that moisture/humidity remains trapped inside of the machine instead of being vented to the outside air almost immediately.

    The net result of blocking your vents will be an accelerated degradation of the systems components resulting in a much higher frequency of part failures and increased fire risk.

    Cimbali warns about this very thing (with-out going into any details) in their service/owner manuals. They even take it so far as to say dont even put a towel on top of the cups on the warming tray.

    Even if you reduce your electricity bill by half youre only saving a bit over $100 a year. Just about any electrical component in a Cimbali is going to cost you that much to replace with many costing several times that much. Id suggest spending the $20 or so on the ceramic insulation and insulating the boiler itself. It will save you even more in electrical costs and it wont damage your system. :)

    Java "Trys to keep the damage to a minimum." phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Thank guys for the kind welcome :). I had been reading for ages and really wanted to join in because CS is always really lively and friendly. Besides, Ill be good value for a ribbing when your boys exact revenge in the Ashes shortly ;)

    I am going to go ahead and insulate. The LAnna is a big old girl being a commercial machine and she has good thermal consistency. *I have not needed to PID her, so wont have any issues with overshoot and so on.

    Like you say Javaphile, the boiler is designed to cope with the temperatures involved. You are spot on as far as I can see about not placing a towel over the vents - they are there for a reason. Besides, I reckon there is little point insulating the whole machine when you have already isolated the heat source with insulation. In fact, as we were discussing on another forum on this side of the world, the addition of insulation directly on the boiler actually helps to protect the other components as it reduces the amount of heat they are subjected to every day. This could be a significant deal to little electronic components.

    I have to figure what material to use. There is something called Superwool 607 available here and it has been used by enthusiasts in Europe in 15mm and 25mm thicknesses. I was thinking about using the thicker version as there is enough space in my LAnna. It works out at about 12 a metre.

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/15#25 date=1156529454
    Like you say Javaphile, the boiler is designed to cope with the temperatures involved. You are spot on as far as I can see about not placing a towel over the vents - they are there for a reason. Besides, I reckon there is little point insulating the whole machine when you have already isolated the heat source with insulation.
    I had a laugh Yeah, it wouldnt make much sense to insulate with a towel if the boiler was already insulated. In the post that I was responding too they were insulating with a towel in lieu of insulating the boiler directly.

    In fact, as we were discussing on another forum on this side of the world, the addition of insulation directly on the boiler actually helps to protect the other components as it reduces the amount of heat they are subjected to every day. This could be a significant deal to little electronic components.

    I have to figure what material to use. There is something called Superwool 607 available here and it has been used by enthusiasts in Europe in 15mm and 25mm thicknesses. I was thinking about using the thicker version as there is enough space in my LAnna. It works out at about 12 a metre.
    Indeed, the obverse of heating up the inside of the machine and causing the components to degrade faster, cooling the interior down and so extending the life of the electronics. :)

    Insulating a boiler well will return the initial costs involved very quickly in electricity saved if the machine is typically left on for most of the day. In the hotter climes it has the additional bonus of reducing the cost of running your air conditioning.

    One of the things about insulating that has concerned me is the fiber issue. Every insulation I have seen will in this application produce small fibers over time. Fibers that are not good to breathe in!

    All of the high-end insulating materials I have looked at specifically state that they are only to be used in an enclosed/encased environment. Specifically because of the fiber issue.

    Two possible solutions I have come up with are to cover the insulation with aluminium foil or to paint it with a high temp paint, such as that used on car engines.

    The foil option is quick, easy, and cheap. Properly done with all the edges sealed nice and tight it should do the job of keeping any fibers being released into the air to an absolute minimum. The downside to the foil is that it will have to be well grounded so-as to not present a potential shock hazzard. The foil will also have to be gone over periodically to make sure all the seals are still tight.

    While the cost of the paint to seal the insulation is inexpensive, in most machines you will have to remove the boiler or face a major masking job. There will also be the problem of fumes coming off the paint for some time until it fully cures, a week at least and quite possibly a month.

    A potential problem with any method of sealing the insulation is the possibility of water getting into the insulation and not evaporating out causing mold and corrosion.

    Java "Things that make you go hhhmmmm..." phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    I too have considered the pros and cons of boiler insulation!

    I have a section of "builders blanket" in my shed, which is fibreglass wool attached to thick aluminium foil. It is used to thermally insulate the roof of a house.
    I also have some self adhesive tape that commercially is used to secure the builders blanket.

    I havent yet fitted this insulation to the 13 litre boiler of my 2 group for most of the reasons that you have outline, Javaphile. I dont want to breathe in shards of fibreglass in the future.... and all of that aluminium covering would make a vast (less regularly shaped) electrially conductive surface ...ie. there would no doubt be many small sections of aluminium foil jutting out, negotiating around pipes, for instance.

    There has to be something with no drawbacks suitable for the purpose.

    I would really like to hear from all of the people who have already insulated their machines boiler about the relative successes, which material was used etc.

    In the back of my mind I keep coming against the idea that if it was such a good idea, then some or all of the manufacturers would have utilised it already, even if it was simply to give their machine a market edge eg. in reduced power consumption....quicker warmup time.....or increased electrial and electronic component lifespan etc.
    Anyway....its time to have another brew.

    I guess the builders blanket will stay in the shed for the time being.....

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Why would the aluminium foil touch electrical parts? you could just tuck everything in nice and tight.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    The Andreja Premium comes pre-lagged with a foam material which if covered with foil might be quite efficient (save any electrical issues as per above discussion), or perhaps some of that expanding spray foam insulation might work albeit with the associated mess, though I would not like to try it personally. I might have a look in the local hardware superstore tomorrow.


  31. #31
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1156047023/15#28 date=1156554616
    Why would the aluminium foil touch electrical parts? you could just tuck everything in nice and tight.
    Usage of the machine and the associated vibrations could cause the foil to shift or a water leak/condensation build-up could give it a path.

    Java "Something to think about" phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/15#29 date=1156559160
    The Andreja Premium comes pre-lagged with a foam material which if covered with foil might be quite efficient (save any electrical issues as per above discussion),
    Id be very interested in seeing the properties of that foam. Especially any longevity specs for it. Foams have a tendency to break down relatively quickly, years rather than decades. All the more rapidly when exposed to heat. If theyve managed to overcome this issue I can see this as potentially being a very viable option.

    or perhaps some of that expanding spray foam insulation might work albeit with the associated mess, though I would not like to try it personally. I might have a look in the local hardware superstore tomorrow.
    Id be very leary about using the spray foam. Replacing a gasket or fitting could prove to be a real challange. Youd probably need a special high temp spray foam as well. The regular stuff degrades pretty quickly under high temps and vibrations. I wouldnt even consider its use on a commercial, or any high-end, machine as it would most likely degrade into a useless mess long before the machine has reached its lifespan.

    Java "More things that make you go hhhmmm..." phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    I think that may be what prevents manufacturers from doing the insulation thing. If you ever need to get access to the boiler, you have to get thru the insulation, and unless you have a removeable one, its probably going to mean a likley breakage of it.

    When people first started mentioning Ceramic Blankets, i had this picture in my head of a Cylindrical (sp?) piece of hard ceramic that was split down one side, and hinged on the other, so you could fit it around the boiler, and just clip/screw it closed and tight.

    That would make it easy to access the boiler if need be, although theyd have to be custom fitted, and need space around the boiler to work this rigid casing into position before tighening.

  34. #34
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Heres some food for thought,

    A couple of links to a number of Australian references to the use of, application and removal of CF products..... doesnt look to good really :-?.

    http://tinyurl.com/qfy9o - http://tinyurl.com/s5zss - http://tinyurl.com/fv3yp - http://tinyurl.com/ev8qs.

    That about covers most scenarios. Theres lots of info out there though if you do a search on "safety with ceramic fibre insulation". Might give the CF a miss now and try to find something significantly less worrisome,

    Cheers all,
    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Thanks, Mal.
    After reading the info on the links that you included, Ive finally made up my mind about the "builders blanket".....it can stay in the shed....my hunch has now become more of an informed decision.

    Paolo.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1156047023/30#33 date=1156579365
    Heres some food for thought,

    Might give the CF a miss now and try to find something significantly less worrisome,

    Cheers all,
    Mal.
    After reading that fibreglass looks better than CF..... but still a pain. I certainly agree cutting and fitting CF (and ultimately removing) is really dangerous :(

    Bearing in mind that the boiler temp should never exceed 120C (ish), I wonder how well wool blanket would perform? It can easily handle temps well above the 120C.... and although CF is rated well above that... I dont see any need to contain the heat of a molten boiler as CF would :o

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Hey JavaB...
    What an interesting thought. My Grans old tea cozy was made of wool and she swore by it for keeping her teapot nice and hot. It would undoubtedly be safe and provide better thermal insulation than air does.

  38. #38
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Hi again All,

    May have found a much safer and effective substitute for the CF products, only recently being made commercially available. Its called "Closed Cell Silicone Sponge Rubber" and is available in Australia from a company called Jehbco, their website here... http://www.jehbco.com.au. Ive sent them an enquiry about our requirements so will let you all know as soon as I have heard back from them. Until then,

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  39. #39
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Mal,

    Is ceramic fibre the same as insulating blanket made from silica fibre? I remember sourcing some insulating blanket years ago and IIRC was manufactured from fibreglass that had been subject to high temperature leaving just the silica fibres. This was woven or pressed into a 1/2" blanket and had great insulating properties. Was bit of a bugga to handle. The other material that we ended up using as a firewall was a woven blanket made of similar material maybe 3mm thick that had a silver backing. This was easy to handle and could be sewn to shape. Ill see what is was when I gte back to work.

    Matt

  40. #40
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Gday Matt,

    Apparently there are at least two methods for manufacturing these products. One method uses short strands of the fibre being used in a random interlocking configuration..... this is the type that most of the poor press is about. The other type uses long strands of fibre which is gathered and spun into a thread that is subsequently used to weave a cloth type product that can be used as per any similarly made material, cut, sewn, hemmed, etc.

    I suppose if a suitable CF product similar to the last one could be sourced, then this would be much more suitable and safer to use. I havent been able to locate any at this stage though so it will be interesting to hear what you use at work and if this is a possible contender :),

    Mal.

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/15#29 date=1156559160
    The Andreja Premium comes pre-lagged with a foam material which if covered with foil might be quite efficient (save any electrical issues as per above discussion), or perhaps some of that expanding spray foam insulation might work albeit with the associated mess, though I would not like to try it personally. I might have a look in the local hardware superstore tomorrow.
    Man, is that a great photo! I think it looks like its already insulated- you might like to just try doing the top and youre done with that one!
    Brett

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Paolo link=1156047023/30#36 date=1156583354
    Hey JavaB...
    What an interesting thought. My Grans old tea cozy was made of wool and she swore by it for keeping her teapot nice and hot. It would undoubtedly be safe and provide better thermal insulation than air does.

    We had better all get knitting then ;). Can you imagine people posting photos of their latest knitted boiler cozies?! ::) :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1156047023/30#37 date=1156584001
    Hi again All,

    May have found a much safer and effective substitute for the CF products, only recently being made commercially available. Its called "Closed Cell Silicone Sponge Rubber" and is available in Australia from a company called Jehbco, their website here... http://www.jehbco.com.au. Ive sent them an enquiry about our requirements so will let you all know as soon as I have heard back from them. Until then,

    Cheers,
    Mal.
    Several of us over this way would be interested if it turns out to be suitable and the suppliers are prepared to ship to the UK :)

    Quote Originally Posted by telemaster link=1156047023/30#40 date=1156626058
    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/15#29 date=1156559160
    The Andreja Premium comes pre-lagged with a foam material which if covered with foil might be quite efficient (save any electrical issues as per above discussion), or perhaps some of that expanding spray foam insulation might work albeit with the associated mess, though I would not like to try it personally. I might have a look in the local hardware superstore tomorrow.
    Man, is that a great photo! I think it looks like its already insulated- you might like to just try doing the top and youre done with that one!
    Brett
    Unfortunately my machine is not pre-lagged. That is a stock photo from the Chris Coffee webiste in the US. He is the main supplier of the Andreja Premium having assisted QuickMill in improving the design. Do you reckon it might be worth asking Chris what material is used?

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by telemaster link=1156047023/30#40 date=1156626058
    Man, is that a great photo! I think it looks like its already insulated- you might like to just try doing the top and youre done with that one!
    Brett
    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/30#41 date=1156641533
    Unfortunately my machine is not pre-lagged. That is a stock photo from the Chris Coffee webiste in the US. He is the main supplier of the Andreja Premium having assisted QuickMill in improving the design. Do you reckon it might be worth asking Chris what material is used?
    I would ask about it- after reading Mals links to the CERAMIC FIBRE OF DEATH!!! Im getting a bit paranoid- thinking of the idea of putting aluminium foil around it (while wearing latex gloves and mask)
    Brett

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    We have some samples at work from Australian Thermal Insulation going back 10 years so Im not sure if they are still in business. We have a sample of the Durablanket which is the ceramic fibre blanket.

    It tears fairly easily, but doesnt fall apart on its own. Its about 1/2" thick, soft and flexible. It isnt woven but made up of compressed fibres (kinda looks like compressed fairly floss for want of a better description). Not sure Id want to wrap it around my boiler period as over time it will shed and possibly cause irritation to eyes and skin.

    The other sample we had was fibreglass cloth covered in an aluminium foil. It is pretty tough, but thin (2mm) and would only offer comparatively lower insulation on its own (Alpha Maritex Style 2025/9480). However it would be much safer to handle and better than nothing.

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers,

    Matt

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    This is the Superwool 607 product that I mentioned earlier. What do you guys make of it?

    http://www.thermalceramics.com/products/categories/superwool.asp

  46. #46
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/30#44 date=1156889876
    This is the Superwool 607 product that I mentioned earlier. What do you guys make of it?

    http://www.thermalceramics.com/products/categories/superwool.asp
    Its not wool but a manmade ceramic fiber and so has all the same caveats as the other CFs discussed. :-/

    Java "Liking the thought of real wool" phile

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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1156047023/45#45 date=1156896930

    Java "Liking the thought of real wool" phile
    :D

    Well Ive found an interesting product manufactured by Felt and Fibre products here in WA...

    It is a 100% wool felt, available in various thicknesses (recommended would be 1/4 inch - 6.4mm) and could withstand the temperature.... (It is used already in similar situations)

    It is easily cut and shaped, will not fray where cut and, if a fibre escapes, it is only wool - so no health risk!!

    It is sold "off the roll" in 1530 mm width at $150.50 / meter (need a few people to share a piece!!!)

    They are willing to provide me with a small sample to try so I can verify the heat tolerance in our application - so I might have to give it a try! :)

    Much prefer this to CF ;)

  48. #48
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1156047023/45#46 date=1156901295
    Well Ive found an interesting product manufactured by Felt and Fibre products here in WA...

    It is a 100% wool felt, available in various thicknesses (recommended would be 1/4 inch - 6.4mm) and could withstand the temperature.... (It is used already in similar situations)
    That sounds like a much better option there JavaB! Let us know what you find out!

    Java " Yay Wool!" phile

  49. #49
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Quote Originally Posted by CakeBoy link=1156047023/30#44 date=1156889876
    This is the Superwool 607 product that I mentioned earlier. What do you guys make of it?
    http://www.thermalceramics.com/products/categories/superwool.asp
    Hi CB,

    Have perused through the MSDS for the above products and from that, it seems to be almost identical to other available CF products. I dont know if we are panicking unnecessarily or not, maybe the CF Blankets represent a very low hazard in the application we want them for. I guess we need the unbiased opinion of a qualified applications engineer for the use of this stuff... I wonder if there is such a person here among the membership?

    Mal.

  50. #50
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    Re: HX boiler insulation results

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1156047023/45#48 date=1156946151
    I dont know if we are panicking unnecessarily or not, maybe the CF Blankets represent a very low hazard in the application we want them for. I guess we need the unbiased opinion of a qualified applications engineer for the use of this stuff... I wonder if there is such a person here among the membership?

    Mal.
    Mal,

    Whilst making phone calls to various suppliers of insulating material..... and explaining what we need it for..... Several of those contacted said that CF (or even fibreglass batts) should not be used around food prep areas unless totally contained... :(

    And they are in the business of selling the material! So there is definately some concern. :(

    Another thought I had (and yes, it was painful!) the CF material could be encased in silicon rubber by covering it with a high temp silicon adhesive (e.g Dow Corning make such a product).

    There is also silicon foam available-- but at $390 +GST per sq meter it is just a tad expensive. Thats how I found out about the high temp silicon adhesive- it was suggested this could be used to fix the foam in place..... but why not smear it over the CF to seal it??? ;)



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