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Thread: Extraction time?

  1. #1
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    Extraction time?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    If you are aiming for an extrction time of 25 seconds for 30ml from a single basket does that mean it should be 50 seconds for 60 ml from a double basket?

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    Re: Extraction time?

    No; it should be double the volume in the same amount of time.

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    Re: Extraction time?

    I imagine the same applies for 30ml in a double basket? Rather than 15sec?

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    Re: Extraction time?

    Errr,

    No zecc. If you only want a 30 ml shot from a single pour, then you should be using the single basket. No problem of course if theres two of you, just use two cups/glasses under the PF with a double basket.... Too easy :),

    Mal.

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    Re: Extraction time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1156248228/0#3 date=1156408299
    Errr,

    If you only want a 30 ml shot from a single pour, then you should be using the single basket.

    Mal.
    Mal,

    If making a Ristretto wouldnt it be 30ml from a double basket in 25 seconds- into one glass? :-/

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    Re: Extraction time?

    mal/anyone,
    should that be 30ml to the top of the creme or to the top of the coffee?

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    Re: Extraction time?

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1156248228/0#4 date=1156408975
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1156248228/0#3 date=1156408299
    Errr,

    If you only want a 30 ml shot from a single pour, then you should be using the single basket.

    Mal.
    Mal,

    If making a Ristretto wouldnt it be 30ml from a double basket in 25 seconds- into one glass? :-/
    Ive heard ristretto (restricted flow) refer to either finer grind/ normal pour (so restricted amount) or just the first 15 sec of a normal 25 sec pour (so restricted time)
    The second is much sweeter and is the base of many drinks and I understand is the more correct.

    Regarding a 30 ml pour, many people would advise still using the double basket (because you may need to revise grind with a different basket etc) and only putting a cup under one side.
    Brett

    main question re measuring to top of coffee or top of crema (id say top of crema) would be, how does it taste? (am i enjoying it?)
    remember these figures are a good guide but youve only got to get a change in humidity or some other variable and the results change, often dramatically

  8. #8
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time?

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1156248228/0#4 date=1156408975
    If making a Ristretto wouldnt it be 30ml from a double basket in 25 seconds- into one glass? :-/
    Indeed JavaB!

    If it is a Ristretto that one is making :) from a double basket,

    Mal.

  9. #9
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    Re: Extraction time?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattm link=1156248228/0#5 date=1156410794
    mal/anyone,
    should that be 30ml to the top of the creme or to the top of the coffee?
    Yes mattm,

    That is the general rule of thumb (top of the crema).

    The original meaning of Ristretto was intended to be a shot volume of 30ml (for a double, 15ml for a single) in the same pour time of 25-30 seconds as would be for a normal shot. This restriction of volume is attained by grinding a little finer than normal such that the rate of pour is half that of normal. It can be a little bit tricky to do but once mastered, absolutely glorious shots can be the result.

    The alternative method of using a normal grind but pulling the shot up short to achieve the nominal 30ml volume, is not really a Ristretto by original definition, but a short shot. The real Ristretto is a much more intense and if done right, a sweeter shot. I love em ;D,

    Mal.

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    Re: Extraction time?

    One of the reasons why we need to measure at the top of the crema is that it can settle quite dramatically, especially if the coffee is too fresh:



    Straight out of the spouts



    A minute or two passes as I clean up



    I take my double upstairs and sit down in front of the computer


    This is probably why WBC competitors use coffee at a much later date than most of us do; I think that this years winners blend was 21 days old.

    Cant remember what the above shot was, but it was probably two days old or so and a single-origin espresso. For some reason, blends seem to have less volatile crema.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Extraction time?

    hi all,
    can you please advise wether at the colour of the shot should change over the duration of the pour? i think ive read here that it should start off dark and thick after about 5 secs then turn to a brown/tanny colour the consistency of hunney for the remainder(maybe even stripes of darker colour etc)

    mine always semm to stay the same colour/consistency through the duration of the pour a medium brown colour no striping visible and about the consistency of cream poured from the bottle.

    the puck seems to be dry on removal and quite firm can be broken into several pieces before crumbling no obviouse signs of channelling, although the edges do seem to be a bit drier than the middle
    after closer inspection of the puck there are large patches of lighter brown throughout the middle of the puck interlaced with patches that seem to be about the same colour as the fresh ground beans.

    have tried going one setting finer on the grind but this results in the coffee becoming bitter to taste so have gone back to original setting

    mattm

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    Re: Extraction time?

    Hi Matt,

    In general, I think that tan is a bad colour; way too light, although this is what you would expect to be observing if you were running 18 second/30mL shots. If you run shots fast, the colour will generally be lighter and wont change as dramatically over the course of a shot.

    Certainly, the better shots that I have had have changed pour colour and pour speed relatively little throughout the shot. Heres one of my favourite photos to demonstrate colour and unchanging speed:




    One would expect that starting off that fast the shot would have sped up massively and been too fast. In fact, it extracted maintaining that brick-red colour (similar in colour to the grounds) throughout. Of course, this shot was made for me on a hotrodded la marzocco linea, so it might be a little unrealistic to expect to get it at home :D

    On a silvia, my shots start off a little, but then get up to speed and maintain that pour thickness until I cut the shot. The colour certainly is a little bit darker at the beginning than at the end, but the point at which the pour goes blond is still relatively distinct. I should note that Im using the stock La Marzocco double basket, which holds a fair bit more coffee than the stock silvia basket and, as a result, seems to change colour less during the pour.

    Personally, Im starting to think that tiger striping in the pour is sometimes an indicator of channeling.

    Have you done a volume/time measurement at one notch finer? It might be too fine. The other thing is that your coffee might be roasted just a little too dark. If you have burnt flavours from the roast, a faster pull is a good way to minimise them.

    Hope that helps a bit ...

    Luca

  13. #13
    Ken
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    Re: Extraction time?

    Hey Luca

    That picture looks like Coreys souped up Linea with the 0.6mm flow restrictors. Ill have to investigate this mod as I find that the E61 preinfusion on my home machine is better than the shots from the stock standard Linea. Did Corey do the brew water pre-heat modification?

    Im with you on the tiger-striping thing. Apparently a spiralling tiger-striped stream is an indication of channeling, as is a corkscrewing stream.

    Cheers

    Ken

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    Re: Extraction time?

    luca,
    thanks for that ive orderd the larger basket from coffe parts and will try when it arrives,
    changed blend of cofee to rivierra by merlo and set grinder 2 notches finer, and tamped alittle lighter, still only taking about 20 secs to obtain approx 60 mls from double basket but colour seems to be a lot darker, almost like milk chocolate starts to come out about 4-5 secs after i switch on pump and runs for another 15-18 secs before noticeable change to lighter colour, in saying this the crema is greatly improved in colour and volume and seems to take about 1-1.5 minutes before it finishes settling out and then leaves about 3-4 mm on top of the shot.

    tastes a little bitter(only slightly on front of tongue) but finishes rather bitter and leaves a bitter aftertaste for several hours after.

    add some milk and i think its really nice

    puck has changed from being dark with a few paler sections(no sign of channelling) but you could see that there was areas of coffee that looked like they had not been extracted from, to now being a uniform colour only slightly lighter than that of the ground coffee.

    mattm

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    Re: Extraction time?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    That picture looks like Coreys souped up Linea with the 0.6mm flow restrictors. Ill have to investigate this mod as I find that the E61 preinfusion on my home machine is better than the shots from the stock standard Linea. Did Corey do the brew water pre-heat modification?
    Correct, it is Coreys home linea. As opposed to his shop linea. That guy has (had) too many lineas. I think that he just decided that he needed the one, two and three group ones. The four group is just two two groups in one body, so maybe thats why he didnt buy one of them, too ;P I dont think that Corey did the heating mods, but I might be wrong. Im pretty sure that he didnt have them at home, at least.

    We had a stock linea in Maling Room for a month or so while we were waiting for the Synesso. It had no restrictors and was not easy to work with. Dave did an experiment with his linea by putting a 0.6mm restrictor in one group, a 0.8mm in another and leaving the other without restrictors. He ended up switching them all to 0.6mms. I think that the shots with the gicleurs in them tend to be a bit more chocolatey and thick on account of the dwell time, but I think that they lose a little bit of the clarity of flavour ... just like on most e-61 machines that Ive used. If I had a linea Id probably put 0.6s or 0.8s in it. If you are going to order any, its worth gettin both and having a play to see which you prefer. Theyre only like $3 each or something. The 0.8s give you a few seconds less preinfusion.

    Apparently a spiralling tiger-striped stream is an indication of channeling, as is a corkscrewing stream.
    Yeah, Ive also only ever seen corkscrewing when the coffee was old or channelling with a fine grind.

    tastes a little bitter(only slightly on front of tongue) but finishes rather bitter and leaves a bitter aftertaste for several hours after.
    Hrmm ... how about this as an experiment, then ... temperature surf your machine and do the grind/dose/tamp thing while the element is heating the water, then flick the steam switch for about ten seconds and extract. Taste. Then, pull a shot at a really really low temperature by doing the grind/dose/tamp, then flushing until the light comes on and immediately extracting your shots. Measure each shot because its only a useful comparison if you have pretty much identical volume/time. Each should taste awful, but in different ways. You should be able to distinguish which minimises the "bitterness" that youre tasting so that you can work out whether the coffee needs to be extracted hotter or colder. Its a good experiment; a bit of fun, if nothing else!

    Cheers,

    Luca



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