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Thread: split dose - do it or not?

  1. #1
    dsc
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    split dose - do it or not?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hello everyone,

    Im still trying to control my little Classic, but its not that easy. I often get uncentered cones on my NPF and coffee spiting is also not a rare thing. Someone suggested on another forum that I should split dose, so dose around 7g, distribute, tamp, dose the rest, distribute, tamp and lock. I seem to remember that this way can lead to horizontal channeling. I also remember reading that the best thing to do is simply tamp only once, without tapping, knocking, just a simple one tamp and polish. Could it be that it works on some machines and doesnt on others?

    Because of all this I have a brainstorm going on in my head and Im not sure what to do next. I tried split dosing and it does work, I get an even stream, less spiting, but frankly its rather timeconsuming and while the clock is ticking, the PF is getting colder and colder...

    Can you suggest something? Usually I use around 16-17g of fresh roasted coffee, grind before the shot, right into the PF, distribute with my evil S&M pin tool (breaking all the clumps), level with a curved piece of plastic, tamp once (around 15kg), polish (with no force applied) and lock. The tamp is 99% of the time even.

    Oh and heres how the split dose shot looked yesterday:



    but the coffee cake had a lot of holes:



    and sadly it always does when I underdose (and it doesnt matter if I split dose or dose once).

    Cheers,
    dsc.

  2. #2
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    DSC, "spitting" sounds like channelling. Despite your best efforts, the water is finding a weak spot through the puck.

    From your description youre doing things pretty right. Colour is good. But Id do one or two modifications.

    Having put the appropriate dose into the basket, and levelled it, allow the weight only of the tamper (assuming you have a heavy one) slightly compress the grounds.

    Then remove it and give the side of the basket a very gentle tap to make the grounds clinging to the sides fall in.

    Now do your 14-15 kg tamp, polishing at the same time, not after.

    But from that photo it all looks good. Whats the taste like?

    --Robusto


  3. #3
    TC
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsc link=1173990485/0#0 date=1173990484
    Hello everyone,

    Im still trying to control my little Classic, but its not that easy. I often get uncentered cones on my NPF and coffee spiting is also not a rare thing. Someone suggested on another forum that I should split dose, so dose around 7g, distribute, tamp, dose the rest, distribute, tamp and lock. I seem to remember that this way can lead to horizontal channeling. I also remember reading that the best thing to do is simply tamp only once, without tapping, knocking, just a simple one tamp and polish. Could it be that it works on some machines and doesnt on others?

    Because of all this I have a brainstorm going on in my head and Im not sure what to do next. I tried split dosing and it does work, I get an even stream, less spiting, but frankly its rather timeconsuming and while the clock is ticking, the PF is getting colder and colder...

    Can you suggest something? Usually I use around 16-17g of fresh roasted coffee, grind before the shot, right into the PF, distribute with my evil S&M pin tool (breaking all the clumps), level with a curved piece of plastic, tamp once (around 15kg), polish (with no force applied) and lock. The tamp is 99% of the time even.

    Oh and heres how the split dose shot looked yesterday:



    but the coffee cake had a lot of holes:



    and sadly it always does when I underdose (and it doesnt matter if I split dose or dose once).

    Cheers,
    dsc.
    Definitely looks like a severely chanelled underdose to me. I find with a triple basket, I need to bench tap to fill, then collapste the dose with my tamp, top up and then tamp proper. Adjust grind accordingly if required. You have to updose them IMHO....

    hope it helps...

    2mcm

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1173990485/0#2 date=1173991560
    Definitely looks like a severely chanelled underdose to me. I find with a triple basket, I need to bench tap to fill, then collapste the dose with my tamp, top up and then tamp proper. Adjust grind accordingly if required. You have to updose them IMHO....

    hope it helps...

    2mcm
    Sounds like what I do with my double basket. Grind straight into the PF, bench tap to level, tamp, redose, tamp, polish then pull the shot. Has been providing me with consistent shots without changing my grind settings at all recently. Even when Ive changed beans :)


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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    The shot looks very overextracted to me. Perhaps your grind is set too fine also.

  6. #6
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Yep, those black flecks look like coffee grounds -- very fine ones which make it past the basket.

    --Robusto

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    A few fines is okay....but that is just way too much fines flecking in the cup....associated with overextraction

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    Flo
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wushoes link=1173990485/0#4 date=1174011738
    The shot looks very overextracted to me. Perhaps your grind is set too fine also.
    What tells you that its overextracted? I thought it looked pretty good (the extraction not the puck).

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    Flo
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    I think I need to get quicker at typing....

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    I have a simple procedure for dosing:

    I weigh out 16g of coffee. Put beans in hopper and grind. I dose into the PF until no more grinds come out. Tap a few times on the bench to settle, and tamp once, with a slight twist at the end. Clean of excess grinds from the lugs and top of PF with my finger, and pull the shot.

    Whatever is left in the chute becomes iced coffee at a later date.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by nunu link=1173990485/0#9 date=1174012678
    I have a simple procedure for dosing:

    I weigh out 16g of coffee. *Put beans in hopper and grind. *I dose into the PF until no more grinds come out. *Tap a few times on the bench to settle, and tamp once, with a slight twist at the end. *Clean of excess grinds from the lugs and top of PF with my finger, and pull the shot.

    Whatever is left in the chute becomes iced coffee at a later date.
    gee, Im glad it s so simple ;D

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flo link=1173990485/0#7 date=1174012546
    What tells you that its overextracted? I thought it looked pretty good (the extraction not the puck).
    I cant say indenfinitely it was overextracted, but it is my opinion from the look of the shot in the cup (based on lots of experience pulling shots day in, day out) that the amount of flecking is a major indication of a overextraction shot......OR a burnt shot. Sorry forgot about that one. Could also just be burnt

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Once youve done it a few times, theres no guesswork about whether its too much, or not enough. Simple because theres only one step for each part of the process.

    Weigh and grind in one go. While youre grinding, youre doing a purging flush on the machine. You grab the PF and dose, tamp, clean. Pull the shot while weighing and grinding the next. Very repeatable.

  14. #14
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Unfortunately, a given weight of beans does not always translate into the same weight of grounds. In some grinders like the Iberital, some grounds do remain behind, attached to the burs, the sides of the chute and so on.

    --Robusto

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    I should have specified for the mini.

    The main point is you want to dose, settle, and tamp once.

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    dsc
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Hello,

    robusto: so you polish with the tamper still "pushed" into the PF? I used to do that, but stoped, dont really know why. I will try it out though.

    2mcm: when I overdosed my baskets I got dry pucks, with no holes. I guess it was because when the puck expands it touches the shower screen and its harder for the water to wash away the top of the coffee puck, right?

    About the black flecks, Ive read that this is a sign of good espresso and it is called mottling. Or am I wrong?

    As for the grind setting, if I grind coarser the pour is too fast.

    I will try overdosing.

    Cheers,
    dsc.

  17. #17
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Yes, poish with the tamper still inside.

    Theres considerable absorption of water during the extraction. Ive weighed the before/after puck, and the wight of water is relatively huge.

    That absorbed water swells the puck, and it has to have some room to expand, while at the same time providing 9 bar resistance. If the basket is underdosed, its not going to provide that resistance, and not enough essential oils will be extracted.

    Id rather see black flecks than not, providing all other parameters are right.

    -Robusto

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    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Hi Nunu - I have found that in the Rocky the grind is more consistent with the weight of beans behind it - at least an inch or so above the grinding plates.

    Cheers

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    A little mottling is good....that lots.....my burnt shots come out like that.

  20. #20
    dsc
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Hello

    I made some measurements and found out that 17g of coffee, after tamping, leave around 2mm of space between the coffee cake and the shower screen. This is before brewing. After brewing it almost touches the screen, which is pretty odd, cause it should expand more. Maybe the damn coffee is too old? Had it for around 3 weeks (was roasted on the 27th of february).

    Will do more tests and also I guess I will go back to weighing coffee in the basket. Dosing by volume tends to be imprecise.

    Cheers,
    dsc.

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    you want the coffee to be just touching the shower screen when you lock it in.

  22. #22
    dsc
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Ola,

    So today I did the usual, grind some coffee into the basket, distributed and leveled with the rim of the basket. Decided to check how much coffee is inside and it was only 14g. I had to tap the PF on the counter and dose some more to fit 17,5g, the ammount needed to almost touch the shower screen.

    The pour was really slow, but mostly because I used a slightly finer grinder setting. It was dripping for around 10-15s and finally the flow started. It was a bit burned in my opinion cause the whole process took more than 30s and I got less than 60ml from a double.

    More tests to follow, just need some fresh coffee.

    Cheers,
    dsc.

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    There is a huge overdosing phenomenon in Australia. Im going to experiment with much lower doses such as the nominal 14grams to 15 grams.

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Can you point the finger in Paul Bassetts direction, maybe.

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    hahaha...maybe Ill talk to him about it on Sunday at the VBC

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Make sure you ask him about down dosing to get a sweeter shot with lighter roasts.

  27. #27
    dsc
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Ola,

    Ive read in Jim Schulmans paper that overdosing doesnt really do anything good. I mean putting more coffee into the basket doesnt mean that you will get more taste in the cup. The optimum dose was said to be around 14g. Its wierd cause with 14g I get a lot of coffee particles in the cup, they get past the basket holes. Thats why I tried overdosing. I guess it really depends on the machine.

    Cheers,
    dsc.

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsc link=1173990485/15#26 date=1175541046
    Ola,

    Ive read in Jim Schulmans paper that overdosing doesnt really do anything good. I mean putting more coffee into the basket doesnt mean that you will get more taste in the cup. The optimum dose was said to be around 14g.
    As I understood it, he recommends underdosing for a very specific type of bean and roast style: high grown single origins which are very light roasted. his reasoning includes that with overdosing the result is usually a quite acrid and sour taste - but again only for this type of beans and roast!! He didnt claim it to universal application at all.
    but I may also be totally wrong with my interpretation - so feel free to shoot me down

    marco

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    I find that that what works best for me and my silvia is to grind directly into PF and slightly overfill, bench tap 3 times then level, bench tap again and then wipe ane left over coffee from top of basket level with rim.
    then temp lightly in centre and then tamp north,south east west with a final tamp of about 15kg in the centre, wipe the rim and insert into machine.

    this i find lightly touches the shower screen and i end up with a dry puck and really nice coffee(although its taken me a long time to get consistent.

    My wife had a tupperware party last week and i made 30 cups of coffee in a row most lattes with a couple of long blacks thrown in the middle(good way to bring temp back down after frothing milk)

    only 1 complaint and that was because i wouldnt go home with her ha ha

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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    whoah 30 coffees in a row with a silvia! thats a fair effort.

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dailybean link=1173990485/15#29 date=1177911156
    whoah 30 coffees in a row with a silvia! thats a fair effort.
    Someone recently made 10 in a row on a Sunbeam - does this make the Silvia 3x better? ;)

  32. #32
    chris002200
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    What are your thought dennis? Would you say that the silvia is 3x better?

  33. #33
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris002200 link=1173990485/30#31 date=1177982135
    What are your thought dennis? *Would you say that the silvia is 3x better?
    Are you trying to get me hung and quartered?

    From my limited experience I do prefer the Silvia as it seems more tactile and better constructed, even with its idiosyncrocies. I dont know that the Silvia is 3x better than the Sunbeam. Bottom line is that I wouldnt pay the asking price of a Sunbeam, but would for the Silvia.

  34. #34
    chris002200
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    Re: split dose - do it or not?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Ahhh, you are a wise man Dennis...



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