Results 1 to 44 of 44
Like Tree41Likes
  • 1 Post By woodhouse
  • 1 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By herzog
  • 1 Post By Yelta
  • 2 Post By Ronin
  • 4 Post By level3ninja
  • 2 Post By Yelta
  • 2 Post By Barry O'Speedwagon
  • 3 Post By simonsk8r
  • 1 Post By simonsk8r
  • 2 Post By woodhouse
  • 2 Post By artman
  • 1 Post By simonsk8r
  • 1 Post By SunnyCoastDazza
  • 2 Post By LeroyC
  • 3 Post By TampIt
  • 3 Post By Javaphile
  • 2 Post By Javaphile
  • 1 Post By TampIt
  • 4 Post By LeroyC
  • 2 Post By TampIt

Thread: Tell me about portafilters/ baskets

  1. #1
    Junior Member SunnyCoastDazza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    21

    Tell me about portafilters/ baskets

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all,

    std vs bottomless. Why would someone want to go bottomless? Does it help someone read the extraction?

    Also baskets. Does brand really matter? Iím referring to non pressurised. I understand there are different capacities 18g, 22g etc. however I have viewed some posts where people claim they notice a difference in one basket over another. For example their std over a vst basket. Is it a case of controlling the shot with the amount of micro holes in the basket? Surely this can be overcome with grind?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,714
    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyCoastDazza View Post
    Hi all,

    std vs bottomless. Why would someone want to go bottomless? Does it help someone read the extraction?

    Also baskets. Does brand really matter? Iím referring to non pressurised. I understand there are different capacities 18g, 22g etc. however I have viewed some posts where people claim they notice a difference in one basket over another. For example their std over a vst basket. Is it a case of controlling the shot with the amount of micro holes in the basket? Surely this can be overcome with grind?
    Plenty of threads and controversy on this forum concerning baskets Dazza.

    Bottomless porta filters, some love them and claim them to be the best diagnostic tool available, I don't share the opinion, yes I have a good one, tried it some time in the distant past, its a novelty most soon tire of, a good shot is just as good regardless of whether its dispensed through a bottomless PF or one with a spout, I suspect in many cases they create more problems than they solve.

    Baskets, plenty of good ones available, my preference is for those from Espresso Parts, others swear by VST, I've tried VST and dislike them, there is certainly a difference, reading through this thread will give you an idea of the differing views https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...baskets-2.html

    Yes, grind, dose and time are the three key variables to keep in mind when working toward the perfect extraction, hope this helps.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    540
    A bottomless group handle will help you see your extraction. It will not change the flavour imo.
    Seeing your extraction will only help really if you are getting channeling which is usually going/dose/tamp issue.
    I use mine at home because my vst basket didn’t fit in the expobar standard group handle and it is very easy to clean. I don’t like the brass group handles, over time they are a pain to clean completely. Lucky I have stainless ones at work

    Some baskets are better than others. Vst baskets are either love or hate, they usually require a finer grind than other baskets, allowing for a better extraction of the coffee oils. I don’t particularly like the EP baskets, but that could be a personal issue with Espresso Parts tainting my view. The IMS baskets are also good but my personal preference is VST

  4. #4
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    260
    into one cup? there is no difference between spouted and bottomless portafilters.

    however if you’re splitting the shot and your puck prep is crap or your grind is too fine, you might get drips out of one spout first which will result in non-homogenous shots.
    Dimal likes this.

  5. #5
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    424
    A naked shot is exposed to "the environment" for the whole duration of the 30-40sec shot, including any cooling/heating effects that may or may not happen to the liquid as it extracts. Spouteds are fully enclosed until the espresso hits the cup/glass and on that alone appear to be more shielded/protected. Does it make a difference? I have no idea... would like to find out though. I only use nakeds.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,714
    Hah! as I indicated in my first post Dazza, plenty of opposing opinions on this topic.

    Looks like you've cracked the lid on Pandora's box once again.
    SunnyCoastDazza likes this.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,714
    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    A naked shot is exposed to "the environment" for the whole duration of the 30-40sec shot, including any cooling/heating effects that may or may not happen to the liquid as it extracts. Spouteds are fully enclosed until the espresso hits the cup/glass and on that alone appear to be more shielded/protected. Does it make a difference? I have no idea... would like to find out though. I only use nakeds.
    I've contemplated this, as you say, the naked shot is exposed from the moment the coffee exits the PF holes, this alone must have some affect on temperature, even if only minor.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    540
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Hah! as I indicated in my first post Dazza, plenty of opposing opinions on this topic.

    Looks like you've cracked the lid on Pandora's box once again.
    Unnecessary comments that take the subject off topic don’t help anyone

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SYD
    Posts
    540
    I use a double spouted portafilter as my daily driver.

    Also have a bottomless, but I generally only use that when troubleshooting or dialing things in after a change of equipment or beans.
    SunnyCoastDazza likes this.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,714
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Unnecessary comments that take the subject off topic donít help anyone
    Oh for goodness sake! the "subject" has been done to death, over and over again.
    gordons likes this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    540
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Oh for goodness sake! the "subject" has been done to death, over and over again.
    Every subject has been done to death. Doesn’t mean it’s not valid now.
    justacuppa and simonsk8r like this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,275
    I always use a naked unless I need to split a shot. Naked takes less time/hot water to heat the PF. Other than using the naked for diagnostic purposes it's all personal preference.

    Baskets on the other hand actually do make a difference. Without coffee in the basket the flow of water is going to be relatively even / dependent on the evenness of the flow from the shower screen. The water isn't going to care about all the holes being the exact same size or evenly spaced etc. Once you add coffee and the water is pressurised to several bar a fraction of a millimetre can make a big difference in flow. Given that water will take the path of least resistance it's important that your coffee puck and the holes in the bottom of the basket all offer the same resistance to flow as each other, otherwise the water will flow over the coffee differently, leading to uneven extraction and not as good coffee in the cup. Some machine manufacturers don't put the same care into their baskets that they put into designing and building the machine. Most are ok as a starting point, though I remember reading on CS about a few brands that people just toss the stock baskets out of the box and substitute something better from day 1.

    Once you're over the "good enough" threshold, though, it's largely personal preference. VST is often seen as the gold standard in the commercial world, understandably as every VST basket is going to be within a very small tolerance of every other VST of the same type, so cafes with multiple sites can set up reviews at one and know it'll be the same at the others. VST also have the best relationship between basket sizes. They are specifically designed so that you don't have to adjust the grind setting when changing between baskets. As long as you dose the same % of the basket ratings you can chop and change without issue. Most other baskets don't work like that in practice. Other than that a home barista doesn't really need a basket that's the same as other people's. Other "good enough" baskets include Pullman, IMS, Decent, most Synesso, La Marzocco (made by VST apparently), Espresso Parts HQ.

    VST tend to have a smaller target to hit but some believe that when you hit it you can get better coffee than with other baskets. Baskets like the Espresso Parts HQ seem to have a larger target to hit but some believe they don't produce quite as good coffee as can be had with other baskets. Yelta and a few others disagree and are very happy with EP baskets. You'll have to try for yourself and see what you like.

    Also important with the basket is to get a close fitting (or "matched") tamper. It doesn't matter how good your basket is if you're leaving 1-2mm around the edge of the basket untamped, the water will always push through the untamped coffee around the edge.

    FWIW I upgraded from the stock Breville baskets that came with my BES920 to an 18g VST, primarily because I wanted to upgrade the tamper and I could have got one matched to the Breville basket but I knew I wouldn't own a Breville forever and didn't want to have to buy another tamper. I had a heck of a steep learning curve with the VST, which I put down to a combination of me and the fact that I was using a Breville BCG820 grinder (they're too inconsistent to make using a VST easy). I later for some EP HQ to try out but found that I got more clarity and sweetness from the VST, and since I'd already figured out how to hit the VST target I went back to what I knew better and to me what tastes better.

    There are people out there who look down on other people due to the type of baskets they use. Obviously this is wrong, you should only look down on people if they're producing terrible coffee and like it. :P
    Ronin, Dimal, simonsk8r and 1 others like this.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,714
    Its popcorn time.
    images.jpg
    simonsk8r and gordons like this.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,574
    Another little bonus of the naked portafilter is the ease of cleaning....just rinse the both sides of the basket after use, with a chemical soak every so often.
    artman and Dimal like this.

  15. #15
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Funny this, I've actually recently been researching the topic of the effect of naked vs spouted on flavour. Not effect on anything else but just on taste, and whether there is any difference.

    I'm looking into it because many times of late that I switch over to the spouted portafilter, the coffee just tastes so much better, and I can't figure out why. From theories that the naked doesn't properly fit/seal on my machine, to more crema in the naked etc, I just don't think I'm making it up to haha.

    Has anyone else found this change in effect on flavour at all? Naked PF definitely produces more crema (or perhaps doesn't dissipate it as much as the spouted moreso), although some surmise that it's sort of a fake extra crema, more air or something. But if it is actually legitimately more crema, surely there would be an impact on taste.

    I've pretty much mostly used the naked, but now really leaning towards the spouted, with just a few naked shots when dialing in a bean.

    (Done to death or not, I love this type of chitchat ;D, and sometimes we can progress beyond old paradigms and learn new things)

    Oh and on baskets, yep they definitely make a difference. I'm loving my Pesado precision basket! I actually bought a couple of EP/HQ baskets just for extraction tests, but found the Pesado I liked better.
    herzog, 338 and SunnyCoastDazza like this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    I also just watched the Advanced Coffee Making lecture with Matt Perger and all the experiments they've been doing, and constantly just extolling the virtues of always aiming to go a finer grind as it increases extraction dramatically.

    So I'm really curious about VST baskets now (however unsure if they require a finer or the same grind as my Pesado). Any basket that can allow you to or requires that you go finer with your grind makes sense to go with.. but this to me may be not worth considering if one is new to coffee. Best to keep it simple to begin with, then explore this stuff later
    gordons likes this.

  17. #17
    338
    338 is online now
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    694
    Amazed no one has mentioned, positively or negatively, the new kid on the block, the coffee slide. Standard on the Lelit Bianca and designed, according to the manufacturer "actively helps the cream creation of the espresso"





    Maybe everyone has been injuring their coffee with the long fall from their naked portafilters?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by 338; 26th March 2019 at 07:06 AM. Reason: made photo larger

  18. #18
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    260
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    I also just watched the Advanced Coffee Making lecture with Matt Perger and all the experiments they've been doing, and constantly just extolling the virtues of always aiming to go a finer grind as it increases extraction dramatically.

    So I'm really curious about VST baskets now (however unsure if they require a finer or the same grind as my Pesado). Any basket that can allow you to or requires that you go finer with your grind makes sense to go with.. but this to me may be not worth considering if one is new to coffee. Best to keep it simple to begin with, then explore this stuff later
    vst baskets are worth it dude. you can go so much finer and extract more as a result.
    simonsk8r and SunnyCoastDazza like this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,714
    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Amazed no one has mentioned, positively or negatively, the new kid on the block, the coffee slide. Standard on the Lelit Bianca and designed, according to the manufacturer "actively helps the cream creation of the espresso"





    Maybe everyone has been injuring their coffee with the long fall from their naked portafilters?
    Interesting! have not previously seen this.

    "actively helps the cream creation of the espresso" Wonder if its a sophisticated version of the infamous Sunbeam pressurized or dual walled coffee basket?

  20. #20
    338
    338 is online now
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    694
    Yelta it is the spout themselves, more a gentle slide than a spout. Takes everyday standard baskets of 58mm. As I understood it the slide allows the crema to slide down more gently with more headroom than a spout. All the reviewers of the Bianca commented on it, I am sure it looks more interesting to watch than a spout. Absolutely no idea if it makes any difference

  21. #21
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,361
    Nothing really new about it, there have been similar types of spouts around for decades.


    Java "Not impressed" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  22. #22
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by woodhouse View Post
    vst baskets are worth it dude. you can go so much finer and extract more as a result.
    Cheers mate, I wonder how they compare with the Pesado, I think I usually have to go finer if I'm coming from another basket to the Pesado. Am sure this topic has been covered somewhere hehe, I'll have a browse...

    But makes sense, go as fine as is humanly possible to get not only full extraction from each particle, but a more even extraction as an average across the board (the coarser it is the less chance the water can penetrate through to the centre, or the more resistance to it fully extracting the particle). Still wondering about where the limitations would be in regards to how low a dose you can go to get finer.. a thread I may bring up soon actually...

  23. #23
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,375
    Go naked I say! After making a naked for curiosity/diagnosis etc many years ago, I havenít gone back.

    I just find it so much less messy (unless you get s squirter!! = poor technique).

    With a spout you get drips etc as you remove PF and knock the puck out. Then you have the additional cleaning inside the PF etc.

    If I get guests who canít take a ďnormalĒ coffee (ie my standard double ristretto) I just stop the shot shorter than normal.

    This leave the spouted pf free to use as a permanent backflush tool with a blind basket!

    I got the convertible cafelat stainless PF from beanbay, itís a quality bit of kit. Very deep and converts quickly to a spouted PF if you are that way inclined.

    Cheers
    Dimal and SunnyCoastDazza like this.

  24. #24
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    This fellow does pretty cool vids, and covered this recently (spouted vs naked), thought it was interesting and it mirrors my experience flavourwise. Just food for thought, no absolutes from me

    https://youtu.be/QcyJyseXUqg
    SunnyCoastDazza likes this.

  25. #25
    Junior Member SunnyCoastDazza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    This fellow does pretty cool vids, and covered this recently (spouted vs naked), thought it was interesting and it mirrors my experience flavourwise. Just food for thought, no absolutes from me

    https://youtu.be/QcyJyseXUqg
    The thermal mass must be a benefit!
    simonsk8r likes this.

  26. #26
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,199
    Yeah I spotted that video the other day. Itís a good video that succinctly covers this issue. Most of the Sprometheus videos are pretty good, but I like this one in particular as itís short and to the point. He states the pros and cons of each type then gives his preference and why. Obviously a taste test, especially one that isnít blind is going to be subjective so take it as you will, but at least he made the effort to do one. Thereís more to it than the points raised in this video, but for any beginners that are wondering what itís all about then this is a great place to start.
    simonsk8r and SunnyCoastDazza like this.

  27. #27
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Yeah I spotted that video the other day. Itís a good video that succinctly covers this issue. Most of the Sprometheus videos are pretty good, but I like this one in particular as itís short and to the point. He states the pros and cons of each type then gives his preference and why. Obviously a taste test, especially one that isnít blind is going to be subjective so take it as you will, but at least he made the effort to do one. Thereís more to it than the points raised in this video, but for any beginners that are wondering what itís all about then this is a great place to start.
    Yeah for sure I found it a great succinct vid, and his others are cool too. And that's right, a limited taste testing setup but he still got out there and did it and that's what he found.

    And it makes sense to me, even as I'm dosing with the naked you can actually feel the heat loss, whereas the spouted retains it much longer. I would think it would have an effect on the water travelling through... but knows for sure hey!

  28. #28
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,275
    Does the heat at that point do anything other than keep the espresso warmer? Like if I heated the cup a bit hotter so it put the exact amount of heat lost to air back into the espresso would it taste the same, or is there still extraction/science going on between the bottom of the basket and the cup? The first time I used a naked I noticed a taste difference (to me it was a positive difference that I took to be testing sweeter, it might have not been sweetness but it was definately different).

    Here's an interesting poll, can people comment both their preference for spouted / naked, as well as their preference for less / more acidity in espresso (assuming proper extraction).

    I'll start: naked and more acidity.

  29. #29
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    Does the heat at that point do anything other than keep the espresso warmer? Like if I heated the cup a bit hotter so it put the exact amount of heat lost to air back into the espresso would it taste the same, or is there still extraction/science going on between the bottom of the basket and the cup? The first time I used a naked I noticed a taste difference (to me it was a positive difference that I took to be testing sweeter, it might have not been sweetness but it was definately different).

    Here's an interesting poll, can people comment both their preference for spouted / naked, as well as their preference for less / more acidity in espresso (assuming proper extraction).

    I'll start: naked and more acidity.
    Yeah I guess I was more referring to the heat being greater all throughout the spouted portafilter, thus also keeping the basket at a higher temp, and potentially affecting the water temp stability throughout the extraction process.

    Agreed that if it was only affecting the liquid espresso at the bottom of the basket it wouldn't change taste, just the temp of the drink.

    I used a naked for years, but now am leaning towards the spouted, but I honestly need a bit more time and testing I think. It really seemed like the spouted was maybe more consistent in extraction, and a more perceived harshness at times in the naked. Spouted has been more consistent and perhaps more flavorful, but again I'd need to test more. And my naked pours always looked great once I'd sorted my technique/grinder out.

    It's very fascinating to me... and I wonder if there is some affect on actual extraction through the process.

    So I guess there are few factors to ponder...

    -Whether the extra crema in the naked is actual real crema that contributes to extra bitterness potentially, although if it dissipates who knows.. (crema being not overly pleasant in taste)

    -Whether the lower residual heat throughout the portafilter in the naked affects the actual extraction.


    Also I love a real nice acidity, but depends on the coffee, if it's too overpowering it can take away from other elements of the coffee. But that could tend more towards roasting or technique error.

  30. #30
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,275
    That's a good point, I hadn't considered the effect of the portafilter heat on the basket. Matt Perger did some stuff a little while ago talking about the starting temperature of the puck and how quickly it comes up to water temp changing extraction. Now I wonder if you prep and tamp the puck and leave it to sit in the heated spouted portafilter for an extra minute will it change things again? If I do that then put the basket in a naked and pull the shot will it be similar to the normal spouted shot?

  31. #31
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    That's a good point, I hadn't considered the effect of the portafilter heat on the basket. Matt Perger did some stuff a little while ago talking about the starting temperature of the puck and how quickly it comes up to water temp changing extraction. Now I wonder if you prep and tamp the puck and leave it to sit in the heated spouted portafilter for an extra minute will it change things again? If I do that then put the basket in a naked and pull the shot will it be similar to the normal spouted shot?
    Yeah I wonder that too. Or whether it even makes an iota of a difference as the water coming out the group head brings everything UP to that temp, or whether the water is brought DOWN in temp due to where its travelling. Of course there's a sort of balancing out and they meet in the middle so to speak.

    When you start the pump, the water is touching the coffee first out of everything, so maybe nothing is changed. But along the walls... I know that many have said using their dual boilers that a change of even 1 or 2 degrees in water temp they can absolutely tell the difference...

    All just theories just for fun haha.. but would be cool for some sort of experiment and of course its effect on flavour being the main/only focus.

  32. #32
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Another interesting thing I remember was done at the barista comps one time was someone (Berg Wu I believe) using chilled portafilters, which was so darn cool, and he won the WBC. Regardless of one's thoughts on the comps as a whole, it clearly made a winner of a coffee. A quote I just found "Cooling down the portafilter allows you to preserve the ďexplosiveĒ floral aroma and complex citric acidity."

    Perhaps a topic for another time haha, but just interesting the topic of the temp of the portafilter and how it affects extraction...

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,341
    Here is my 2 cents worth. BTW, all testing was done on correctly aged light and medium roasts at Perth's top roaster at the time. For dark roasts YMMV (and you are on your own in terms of any differences).

    Nakeds are a bit like VST baskets - if you are a true coffee aficionado you will spend the time to nail your technique. After that, you will never go back to a spouted. Here is why (IMO)

    1) The temperature argument is an utter furphy. Coffee will exit the naked p/f at the same temp as any spouted pour. I use twin wall borosilicate glass, I stopped using ceramic cups years ago as the twin wall not only lets you see the shot ("exit stage left" that "cannot see" furphy in the video), they are way more temperature stable than even the thickest ceramic cup - which slowly loses more heat than a twin wall. Assuming you set the height of the glass correctly (yep, easy to adjust) the fall should be the same as any spouted p/f. Needless to say, you can prewarm the twin wall to any temperature you desire...
    2) Once set up the naked's extra crema will also taste a lot better. I was part of some fairly extensive blind testing in the late '80's or early '90's when an Italian barista (who really deserved the title, unlike some today) brought a few nakeds over from Northern Italy to my favourite roaster. Much more quantity, longer lasting and better tasting crema was a universal result - to the point that unless you were also literally blindfolded one glance could tell you which p/f was being used. The coffee was always quite a bit sweeter, clearer and cleaner in taste and (surprisingly to me at the time) richer in texture as an espresso. The utter killer during testing was using genuine Ethiopian Mocha (yep, the original - very rare, only a few hectares still exist today). The naked added so much more "chocolate bomb" that we had to readjust the settings noticeably to rebalance the shot. BTW, no one has yet explained to me how bouncing delicate crema around can improve either its quality or the quantity. FYI, the naked cannot possibly add any crema or artificially enhance it - use a glass and see for yourself as it pours.
    3) Poor technique will be obvious. Put it another way, if the shot squirts or channels you may not see it using a spouted, however you can taste it easily enough. That is why I always use a naked when training people - any issues with the puck prep and it is immediately apparent to all and sundry.

    The other comments about VST vs other baskets - VST's have a much higher percentage of accurately sized "holes to metal" than their alternatives which leads to a much higher flow rate. That means balancing the shot will require grinding finer - which leads to a higher extraction ratio (i.e. more quantity of flavour for the same amount of beans). That also implies that if your grinder is not up to grinding finer (i.e. the old "too many unwanted fines" issue), the bitterness will hit you over the head - why a lot of people with crappy grinders cannot get decent results out of a VST. The main reason VST baskets are used for Barista Championships is because the VST will deliver a much stronger and clearer tasting shot so any differences in the barista techniques will be revealed.

    Hope this helps.

    TampIt
    simonsk8r, level3ninja and chippy like this.

  34. #34
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,361
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    -Whether the extra crema in the naked is actual real crema that contributes to extra bitterness potentially, although if it dissipates who knows.. (crema being not overly pleasant in taste)
    I think this common way of describing the effects of using a naked portafilter (i.e. The part in bold.) has lead to ill-conceived preconceptions such as the remainder of the sentence. This description is based on the attitude that the naked portafilter is somehow making/adding to the amount of crema. In point of fact it doesn't. All of the crema a shot produces is done upon its' exiting the basket. After that no more crema is/can be generated. So is the 'extra' crema seen with a naked portafilter 'real crema'? With the understanding that all crema is produced at the exit from the basket then by definition that 'extra' crema is indeed real crema.

    This new understanding brings on a new view of what is going on with the crema. The naked isn't making more crema it's simply allowing all of the crema produced to make it to the cup. The standard/spouted portafilter on the other hand can now be seen for the culprit it is. It is removing crema. Not only does it reduce the volume of the crema it also affects its' taste. The material of the interior surface as well as its' cleanliness also has an impact on the volume and taste of the shot/crema.


    Java "View from a different angle" phile
    Dimal, simonsk8r and TampIt like this.
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  35. #35
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Here is my 2 cents worth. BTW, all testing was done on correctly aged light and medium roasts at Perth's top roaster at the time. For dark roasts YMMV (and you are on your own in terms of any differences).

    Nakeds are a bit like VST baskets - if you are a true coffee aficionado you will spend the time to nail your technique. After that, you will never go back to a spouted. Here is why (IMO)

    1) The temperature argument is an utter furphy. Coffee will exit the naked p/f at the same temp as any spouted pour. I use twin wall borosilicate glass, I stopped using ceramic cups years ago as the twin wall not only lets you see the shot ("exit stage left" that "cannot see" furphy in the video), they are way more temperature stable than even the thickest ceramic cup - which slowly loses more heat than a twin wall. Assuming you set the height of the glass correctly (yep, easy to adjust) the fall should be the same as any spouted p/f. Needless to say, you can prewarm the twin wall to any temperature you desire...
    2) Once set up the naked's extra crema will also taste a lot better. I was part of some fairly extensive blind testing in the late '80's or early '90's when an Italian barista (who really deserved the title, unlike some today) brought a few nakeds over from Northern Italy to my favourite roaster. Much more quantity, longer lasting and better tasting crema was a universal result - to the point that unless you were also literally blindfolded one glance could tell you which p/f was being used. The coffee was always quite a bit sweeter, clearer and cleaner in taste and (surprisingly to me at the time) richer in texture as an espresso. The utter killer during testing was using genuine Ethiopian Mocha (yep, the original - very rare, only a few hectares still exist today). The naked added so much more "chocolate bomb" that we had to readjust the settings noticeably to rebalance the shot. BTW, no one has yet explained to me how bouncing delicate crema around can improve either its quality or the quantity. FYI, the naked cannot possibly add any crema or artificially enhance it - use a glass and see for yourself as it pours.
    3) Poor technique will be obvious. Put it another way, if the shot squirts or channels you may not see it using a spouted, however you can taste it easily enough. That is why I always use a naked when training people - any issues with the puck prep and it is immediately apparent to all and sundry.

    The other comments about VST vs other baskets - VST's have a much higher percentage of accurately sized "holes to metal" than their alternatives which leads to a much higher flow rate. That means balancing the shot will require grinding finer - which leads to a higher extraction ratio (i.e. more quantity of flavour for the same amount of beans). That also implies that if your grinder is not up to grinding finer (i.e. the old "too many unwanted fines" issue), the bitterness will hit you over the head - why a lot of people with crappy grinders cannot get decent results out of a VST. The main reason VST baskets are used for Barista Championships is because the VST will deliver a much stronger and clearer tasting shot so any differences in the barista techniques will be revealed.

    Hope this helps.

    TampIt
    Great food for thought TampIt, cheers . Regarding temperature, do you reckon though that the less heat retained in the naked would affect the actual extraction process (due to the water coming into a cooler environment or contact with a cooler environment)? I know you said that the temp of the liquid coming out is the same in both, and that's what I'm still wondering about. If the water hits the coffee first, I wouldn't think the actual ground coffee temperature would have drastically changed from being in the basket for those few seconds, so extraction you would think would be the same in spouted and naked. But ambient temp may affect things potentially.

    Interesting observations about the blind taste tests... I've found the spouted nicer as have others, but I guess there are so many variables... perhaps the coffee itself being of most importance. Tasting is always the best measure anyway, I may have another experimenting play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    I think this common way of describing the effects of using a naked portafilter (i.e. The part in bold.) has lead to ill-conceived preconceptions such as the remainder of the sentence. This description is based on the attitude that the naked portafilter is somehow making/adding to the amount of crema. In point of fact it doesn't. All of the crema a shot produces is done upon its' exiting the basket. After that no more crema is/can be generated. So is the 'extra' crema seen with a naked portafilter 'real crema'? With the understanding that all crema is produced at the exit from the basket then by definition that 'extra' crema is indeed real crema.

    This new understanding brings on a new view of what is going on with the crema. The naked isn't making more crema it's simply allowing all of the crema produced to make it to the cup. The standard/spouted portafilter on the other hand can now be seen for the culprit it is. It is removing crema. [/BOLD]Not only does it reduce the volume of the crema it also affects its' taste.[\BOLD] The material of the interior surface as well as its' cleanliness also has an impact on the volume and taste of the shot/crema.


    Java "View from a different angle" phile
    Ah, makes perfect sense JP , thanks for that. I guess I didn't mean it created more crema, bad choice of words on my part, but yes more crema making it into the cup for sure.

    The bolded part I highlighted is one of the factors I'm wondering about. Whether the extra crema (so to speak) that's making it into the cup is affecting the overall taste of the espresso (assuming a clean spouted portafilter).
    Last edited by simonsk8r; 3rd April 2019 at 04:57 PM.

  36. #36
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,361
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    The bolded part I highlighted is one of the factors I'm wondering about. Whether the extra crema (so to speak) that's making it into the cup is affecting the overall taste of the espresso (assuming a clean spouted portafilter).
    Ah, I guess I should have been clearer that I had added the bolding so that what I was referring to could be seen in context.

    Whether, and to what degree, the larger volume of crema makes a difference to you can only be determined...by you. Some like it, some don't, and some taste no difference.


    Java "Test it again on the next bean, and the next bean, and the..." phile
    Dimal and simonsk8r like this.
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  37. #37
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    Ah, I guess I should have been clearer that I had added the bolding so that what I was referring to could be seen in context.

    Whether, and to what degree, the larger volume of crema makes a difference to you can only be determined...by you. Some like it, some don't, and some taste no difference.


    Java "Test it again on the next bean, and the next bean, and the..." phile
    Ah yep nah that made sense what you were referring to, all good . (I tried "bolding" a part of your quote in Tapatalk and it failed miserably haha).

    Great point

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,341
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Great food for thought TampIt, cheers . Regarding temperature, do you reckon though that the less heat retained in the naked would affect the actual extraction process (due to the water coming into a cooler environment or contact with a cooler environment)? I know you said that the temp of the liquid coming out is the same in both, and that's what I'm still wondering about. If the water hits the coffee first, I wouldn't think the actual ground coffee temperature would have drastically changed from being in the basket for those few seconds, so extraction you would think would be the same in spouted and naked. But ambient temp may affect things potentially.

    Interesting observations about the blind taste tests... I've found the spouted nicer as have others, but I guess there are so many variables... perhaps the coffee itself being of most importance. Tasting is always the best measure anyway, I may have another experimenting play.
    G'day simonsk8r

    You asked for my thoughts on temperature, so here goes - IMO, YMMV and all the other weasel words apply as these are preliminary impressions only.

    The basket is held in by a small ring of metal contacting the top only. That means any transfer of temperature "pre spout" would have to be minimal. Assuming the time taken from grinder to group is the same, I suspect any temperature difference there would be hard to measure - if any exists at all. This goes double if the time and preflush temperature are identical and both p/fs are fully up to temperature. The extra thermal mass of the spouted may actually work against it slightly as it takes more heat to warm it through, whilst the extra thermal mass will hold whatever heat it has for a longer time. Even during the shot the naked will heat up faster, although I still suspect the difference in thermal transfer will be almost nil.

    Adjusting the height of the "drop" from bottom of the naked p/f / spouts to the bottom of glass to match each other would mean that the contact time of the coffee in the air would also be a match - no real difference there either.

    Then there is the extra distance "post basket, down the p/f and then down the spouts" for the spouted p/f. I cannot see much of a shift in temperature there as the p/f is (hopefully) prewarmed via a preflush and the extra mass would minimise any cooling, and yet would not be hot enough to add much heat.

    Over to the naked - crema is a pretty good insulator, so the actual coffee drop would possibly cool down a little less on its way to the glass.

    I suspect it would be very close to a draw between the naked / spouted in terms of temperature hitting the cuppa all things being equal. I also suspect that they are probably not very equal in practice.

    Why? There is another, far more critical factor not covered so far. I have a few 6910 nakeds - all mine are brass, as the stainless nakeds takes a lot longer to warm up. As near as I can tell, the brass p/fs are a lot heavier than the stainless, so they have both more thermal mass and are faster to heat via a preflush. They also would transfer more heat via that small contact area. Testing with exactly the same materials is implied in all the above, which may not be true at all.

    So if you want to set a particular temperature in the cuppa, I would suggest that prewarming the glass to whatever the desired temperature is (allowing for the actual temperature of the shot plus any milk froth) would be a far more effective way to do it.

    Over to "Interesting observations about the blind taste tests... I've found the spouted nicer as have others, but I guess there are so many variables... perhaps the coffee itself being of most importance. Tasting is always the best measure anyway, I may have another experimenting play."

    My gut feeling is that the quality of the crema is more affected by the processing methodology, the state of the roast and the grinder's particle spread than anything else. More of a crappy crema is not really a bonus. That was probably the biggest difference when I bought my first Vario - the crema of a good roast was a big step up in flavour. Poor roasts - hard to find any positives at all, and the crema was simply terrible. Naked p/f's actually exaggerated that, so I guess that picking good roasts (or DIY) became even more of an issue.

    TampIt
    buderim11 likes this.

  39. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    I think this common way of describing the effects of using a naked portafilter (i.e. The part in bold.) has lead to ill-conceived preconceptions such as the remainder of the sentence. This description is based on the attitude that the naked portafilter is somehow making/adding to the amount of crema. In point of fact it doesn't. All of the crema a shot produces is done upon its' exiting the basket. After that no more crema is/can be generated. So is the 'extra' crema seen with a naked portafilter 'real crema'? With the understanding that all crema is produced at the exit from the basket then by definition that 'extra' crema is indeed real crema.

    This new understanding brings on a new view of what is going on with the crema. The naked isn't making more crema it's simply allowing all of the crema produced to make it to the cup. The standard/spouted portafilter on the other hand can now be seen for the culprit it is. It is removing crema. Not only does it reduce the volume of the crema it also affects its' taste. The material of the interior surface as well as its' cleanliness also has an impact on the volume and taste of the shot/crema.


    Java "View from a different angle" phile
    Thanks Java "font of all coffee knowledge" phile.

    My "FYI, the naked cannot possibly add any crema or artificially enhance it - use a glass and see for yourself as it pours." is nowhere as clear as this post of yours. Says it all. Thanks.

    Your next sign off:
    Java "Test it again on the next bean, and the next bean, and the..." phile
    not only brought a smile to my face, it is the best advice I wish I had given.

    Regards


    Tamp"I wish I had thought of that"It

  40. #40
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,199
    I actually cast a spell on my portafilter each time Iím making a single origin espresso. Works a treat and comes out perfect every time.

  41. #41
    338
    338 is online now
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    694
    Hi Tamp it,
    Just out of interest do the 6910 portafilters work on your Decent? Or do you use their stainless ones (which may be more suitable if their machines are tuned for certain characteristics of their portafilters)?
    Thanks

  42. #42
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    G'day simonsk8r

    You asked for my thoughts on temperature, so here goes - IMO, YMMV and all the other weasel words apply as these are preliminary impressions only.

    The basket is held in by a small ring of metal contacting the top only. That means any transfer of temperature "pre spout" would have to be minimal. Assuming the time taken from grinder to group is the same, I suspect any temperature difference there would be hard to measure - if any exists at all. This goes double if the time and preflush temperature are identical and both p/fs are fully up to temperature. The extra thermal mass of the spouted may actually work against it slightly as it takes more heat to warm it through, whilst the extra thermal mass will hold whatever heat it has for a longer time. Even during the shot the naked will heat up faster, although I still suspect the difference in thermal transfer will be almost nil.

    Adjusting the height of the "drop" from bottom of the naked p/f / spouts to the bottom of glass to match each other would mean that the contact time of the coffee in the air would also be a match - no real difference there either.

    Then there is the extra distance "post basket, down the p/f and then down the spouts" for the spouted p/f. I cannot see much of a shift in temperature there as the p/f is (hopefully) prewarmed via a preflush and the extra mass would minimise any cooling, and yet would not be hot enough to add much heat.

    Over to the naked - crema is a pretty good insulator, so the actual coffee drop would possibly cool down a little less on its way to the glass.

    I suspect it would be very close to a draw between the naked / spouted in terms of temperature hitting the cuppa all things being equal. I also suspect that they are probably not very equal in practice.

    Why? There is another, far more critical factor not covered so far. I have a few 6910 nakeds - all mine are brass, as the stainless nakeds takes a lot longer to warm up. As near as I can tell, the brass p/fs are a lot heavier than the stainless, so they have both more thermal mass and are faster to heat via a preflush. They also would transfer more heat via that small contact area. Testing with exactly the same materials is implied in all the above, which may not be true at all.

    So if you want to set a particular temperature in the cuppa, I would suggest that prewarming the glass to whatever the desired temperature is (allowing for the actual temperature of the shot plus any milk froth) would be a far more effective way to do it.

    Over to "Interesting observations about the blind taste tests... I've found the spouted nicer as have others, but I guess there are so many variables... perhaps the coffee itself being of most importance. Tasting is always the best measure anyway, I may have another experimenting play."

    My gut feeling is that the quality of the crema is more affected by the processing methodology, the state of the roast and the grinder's particle spread than anything else. More of a crappy crema is not really a bonus. That was probably the biggest difference when I bought my first Vario - the crema of a good roast was a big step up in flavour. Poor roasts - hard to find any positives at all, and the crema was simply terrible. Naked p/f's actually exaggerated that, so I guess that picking good roasts (or DIY) became even more of an issue.

    TampIt
    Thanks for your very informative response mate, appreciate it . And yeah again I wasn't too concerned with the temperature drop AFTER the espresso has already been extracted and left the basket, but whether the water changes temperature upon entering the ground coffee due to the environment being potentially cooler, and then affecting the actual brewing process.

    After the espresso has left the basket the temp drop wouldn't be much of issue as such. Just mid-brewing. Like how with a PID dual boiler where you can change the water temp out of the group. But very interesting, some good thoughts in there

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,341
    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Hi Tamp it,
    Just out of interest do the 6910 portafilters work on your Decent? Or do you use their stainless ones (which may be more suitable if their machines are tuned for certain characteristics of their portafilters)?
    Thanks
    Nope, the 6910 ones will not fit without some mods - possibly easy enough, however given the huge number of family / friends serious medical issues lately I haven't even examined the possibility closely enough to be sure. BTW, I am still frothing with the 7000 as the Decent cannot do both at once (yet).

    Like all machines I use, I ordered a spare (stainless, naked) p/f with the Decent, so I can do multiple shots with it. Daily use: not needed, however when the ravening hordes visit it makes life much easier (and delivering the shots a lot faster). For those interested, I am currently writing a mini review about the new toy - time is a real issue at the moment, so do not hold your breath waiting.. Short version - Yep, it can equal a manual lever with a bit of tinkering, so for me it is easily worth the price. I have pulled quite a few sink shots and quite a few magic ones - either of which can be repeated ad infinitum... It shares another (frustrating to get your head around) trait with the Strada - it is very sensitive to different roasts, almost to the point of exaggerating the differences - which I know it actually cannot do, so I guess it is also more revealing. Mercifully, unlike when I was in the US playing with the Strada, it will be unlikely to be exposed to poor roasts.


    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Thanks for your very informative response mate, appreciate it . And yeah again I wasn't too concerned with the temperature drop AFTER the espresso has already been extracted and left the basket, but whether the water changes temperature upon entering the ground coffee due to the environment being potentially cooler, and then affecting the actual brewing process.

    After the espresso has left the basket the temp drop wouldn't be much of issue as such. Just mid-brewing. Like how with a PID dual boiler where you can change the water temp out of the group. But very interesting, some good thoughts in there
    G'day again simonsk8r

    Yep, all coffee in the group will be cooler than the p/f "pre shot". FWIW, I cannot see how that will change from naked p/f to spouted p/f unless you leave the shot sitting in the p/f for long enough for heat transfer from p/f to basket. Personally, I would never do that and I suspect most CS'r's wouldn't either.

    One interesting side effect of the Decent is that you can select the coffee sensor (presumably just above the grouphead) or the more traditional water sensor. Merely changing over to the coffee sensor noticeably affects the pour (didn't expect that one!).

    Enjoy your cuppas


    TampIt
    simonsk8r and 338 like this.

  44. #44
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    60
    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    I made a naked portafilter from a stainless steel standard em6910 , I used a 100mm angle grinder and a thin disc , It isnt very pretty but it works . I like watching the coffee coming out of it and it makes it a lot easier to see the blonding .

    My Torino and EM7000 both have crap flowmeters so weight or sight are the best options for me to get a good cup.

    On the heat side my wife like hot flat whites and we know there is a limit to how hot you can make the milk , so I put the portafilter in the cup and fill them with boiling water as I wait for the sunbeam to heat up.

    I have not noticed much difference in taste between portafilters but I drink flatwhites.
    Attached Images Attached Images



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •