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Thread: Does size really matter?

  1. #1
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    Does size really matter?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I am considering buying a Giotto Premium Plus however my coffee mad friend says to buy one with the biggest boiler I can. The GPP is just 1.8L but everyone seems to love them. Does it matter? Can a GPP make 10 cups of coffee on the fly?
    I think the GPP has a 1700W element - does this compensate for the small boiler?

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 78495A525C7A3B0 link=1237633261/0#0 date=1237633261
    I am considering buying a Giotto Premium Plus however my coffee mad friend says to buy one with the biggest boiler I can. *The GPP is just 1.8L but everyone seems to love them. *Does it matter? *Can a GPP make 10 cups of coffee on the fly?
    I think the GPP has a 1700W element - does this compensate for the small boiler?
    Hi Craig,

    1.2 L is a small boiler for a HX machine...

    Andy Freeman has a Giotto and recently used it to make 2000 coffees in a 40hr straight session...I reckon thats a tad more than 10 ;)

    10 coffees back to back is a walk in the park ;)

    2mcm

  3. #3
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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Hi Craig and welcome to CS!

    a) Bigger isnt necessarily better
    b) 10 cups in a row? No problem. Giottos have been used reliably to deliver far, far, more than that.
    c) Yes, the element is 1700w. While this has something to do with recovery times *within* the boiler, briefly, HX machines dont rely on the boiler for delivery of water for the production of espresso...but thats another story.

    Theres one at the following link for a ridiculously great price. And if you want one that is blemish free, either Chris or myself would be happy to assist.

    Cheers
    Den

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1163933911


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    Re: Does size really matter?

    GraigA,

    Everything depends on how many coffees youd be expecting your machine to cope with.

    If youd been using your machine for fund raising events, church gatherings, any other social get-together or even frequent dinner parties that would require the machine to cope with minimum 30 milky cups in a go, you need a large boiler AND a powerful element to cope with volume and support minimal steam recuperation time.

    HOWEVER,

    If youre domestic consumption averages at 3-4 coffees per day and 10 cups rarely in those busy entertainment scenario, you dont really NEED that boiler size. A standard 1.2 L machine (like the Isomac Tea for example...) paired with 1400W heating element, is certainly capable of making 10 milky cups in a row.

    Note that The Giotto, with its 1.8L Boiler has only 1200W element, (www.espressocompany.com.au/giotto.htm), which means that in comparison to a smaller boiler machine, recuperation time *for steaming on the Giotto will not necessarily be significantly shorter if the smaller boiler machine is paired up with a is more powerful element. *

    You are welcome to come to the shop and try both machines and compere.

    Otherwise, CS specials on all machines mentioned above, are available on: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1163932885

    Regards


    Renzo

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E4375684B585E4546432A0 link=1237633261/3#3 date=1237678755
    GraigA,

    Everything depends on how many coffees youd be expecting your machine to cope with.

    If youd been using your machine for fund raising events, church gatherings, any other social get-together or even frequent dinner parties that would require the machine to cope with minimum 30 milky cups in a go, you need a large boiler AND a powerful element to cope with volume and support minimal steam recuperation time.

    HOWEVER,

    If youre domestic consumption averages at 3-4 coffees per day and 10 cups rarely in those busy entertainment scenario, you dont really NEED that boiler size. A standard 1.2 L machine (like the Isomac Tea for example...) paired with 1400W heating element, is certainly capable of making 10 milky cups in a row.

    Note that The Giotto, with its 1.8L Boiler has only 1200W element, (www.espressocompany.com.au/giotto.htm), which means that in comparison to a smaller boiler machine, recuperation time *for steaming on the Giotto will not necessarily be significantly shorter if the smaller boiler machine is paired up with a is more powerful element. *

    You are welcome to come to the shop and try both machines and compere.

    Otherwise, CS specials on all machines mentioned above, are available on: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1163932885

    Regards


    Renzo
    Hi Renzo,

    The element in the Giotto is 1700W. Its one of the specifics of the Australian spec.

    Ill forward your post on to ECA and request that they update their website. The inclusion of a 1700W element was one of the upgrades incorportated into the GPP.

    2mcm

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Hi All
    My local coffee shop is trying to sell me a GIME Ambra. It has an E61, 1400W element and 3.5L Boiler. I imagine it has a very long "first cup" time. Anybody got any experience of it? (The GPP is still top of the pops)

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0031222A2402430 link=1237633261/5#5 date=1237690931
    Hi All
    My local coffee shop is trying to sell me a GIME Ambra. *It has an E61, 1400W element and 3.5L Boiler. *I imagine it has a very long "first cup" time. *Anybody got any experience of it? (The GPP is still top of the pops)
    Looks good but I think that 1400W and 3.5L worth of boiler could be frustrating. Id want a good 2000W in that boiler Id reckon.

    2mcm

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A67514C6F7C7A6162670E0 link=1237633261/3#3 date=1237678755
    If youre domestic consumption averages at 3-4 coffees per day and 10 cups rarely in those busy entertainment scenario, you dont really NEED that boiler size. A standard 1.2 L machine (like the Isomac Tea for example...) paired with 1400W heating element, is certainly capable of making 10 milky cups in a row.

    Regards


    Renzo
    Just out of curiosity...what if boiler was 1.3L but heating element was 200W less, only 1200w? Still 10 Milky drinks in a row no problem? Any disadvantages? Currently looking at different speced HX machines. A bit worried about the one with these specs (although everything else about it appeals) because I believe even my Piccolo has 1400w with its smaller .75L boiler.

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    [QUOTE=5C6B6D7D76671E0 link=1237633261/7#7 date=1237722863]
    Quote Originally Posted by 4A67514C6F7C7A6162670E0 link=1237633261/3#3 date=1237678755
    Just out of curiosity...what if boiler was 1.3L but heating element was 200W less, only 1200w? Still 10 Milky drinks in a row no problem? Any disadvantages? Currently looking at different speced HX machines. A bit worried about the one with these specs (although everything else about it appeals) because I believe even my Piccolo has 1400w with its smaller .75L boiler.
    Hi Buschy,

    I *think* I know the machines you are referring to. *:-/

    If I am right, they do the job well and I have used them to do coffee for 50 pax. You may wish to PM me...

    Key things to keep in mind is that the Piccolo needs element grunt as it has to rapidly turn 93ish deg brew water into milk texture steam. Thats the whole concept of dual purpose, single boiler.

    HX is totally different. The brew water in the HX is flash heated in the boiler environment. The boiler provides steam and hot water...

    Design a HX well and you get the right brew temp and good steam reserves. Design it badly and you get a shot burning pig of a machine...

    There are some fantastic HX machines and some boat anchors. The key is to find an honest dealer who provides the facts rather than selling snake oil with only margin in mind.

    Hope that helps...

    2mcm

  10. #10
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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 48796A626C4A0B0 link=1237633261/0#0 date=1237633261
    I am considering buying a Giotto Premium Plus however my coffee mad friend says to buy one with the biggest boiler I can. *The GPP is just 1.8L but everyone seems to love them. *Does it matter? *Can a GPP make 10 cups of coffee on the fly?
    I think the GPP has a 1700W element - does this compensate for the small boiler?
    Perhaps you could take a look to a double boiler machine if you are worried about brewing/steaming performance.

  11. #11
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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Hi Buschy,
    Is the Piccolo a La Pavoni machine? If so, that is what I have at the moment and have had for about 15 years. 0.8L boiler with 1000W element. Trouble is every 4 cups you have to depressurize, refill, reboil. Very time consuming for more than 4 cups.

    I think I decided on the GPP as it appears the group head has better temperature regulation than the Vibiemme Domobar Super Lever (the other machine Chris said I should look at) and possibly has a faster start up (100W less but 1L smaller boiler). Or am I again mistaken?

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    The question:

    Does size really matter?

    Common Sense Reply:

    Depends on what kind of entertaining you want to do at home and the kind of person you are and what you expect from your equipment. The fact is, in most cases in the home situation size DOES NOT matter because in 99% of cases, its only just you and your wife / partner / girlfriend / boyfriend / whatever.

    Whejn you have people over, you are not trying to win races in coffee making as you do in a cafe. You are relaxing, entertaining, people are talking, usually mixing it wine or beer, the coffee making can be as slow as you like.

    Most of these discussions are rendered purely academic over time. People worry about the size of things, or the tech specs of things, before they buy and use them to make decisions. Once the equipment goes home, the size and the tech specs are out the window for ever.

    I have been using a 1.3 litre Diadema Junior heat exchanger machine (or several because I can) *at home for years. It has a 1300W element. I have had up to 40 people in the house at the one time. Most of them are into the red wine. Some of them want me to make them coffee....I do, they wait as long as it takes me to make them, while I get involved in conversations with others, see people off, etc etc etc and everyone is happy.

    We can sell you a 2 litre machine if you like, but I personally cant see the problem with the smaller boiler machines.

    Done forget. They are smaller, therefore they recover just as quickly as a larger boiler machine with more water in it, and a larger element.

    People talk about "consistency".......most of them have been reading articles on consistency instead of enjoying their coffee ;)

    ....or is it just that our 1.3 litre Diadema Junior plus machines outperform ;everything else on the market????????? ;D


    Regardz,
    Attilio
    first / original CS site sponsor.


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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Great post Attilio! thank you for taking the good, old common sense out of the closet....

    Weve been saying for years that mere specification analysis without considering our own habits and home scenario would not be given us a comprehensive picture nor help us to take knowledgeable decision on the best matching set up for our home.

    We often say to people that in this level of prosumer HX, it comes down to what would look better on their bench and which one theyd feel more at ease with. If we feel compromised by our choice each time we walk into the kitchen, not only wed be discouraged taking advantage of the machines capabilities, but would also risk the progress of our learning process towards a better quality cup. **

    Hope it makes sense too. *:)

    Ofra

  14. #14
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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Hi Attilio
    Youre absolutely right. You get your machine home and all the specs go out the window.

    Isnt that why you do the research before the purchase? You have to live with this thing for the next 10+ years. Like so many things, it isnt always clear what is important. Thats why Im here.




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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Hi CraigA,

    As has been pointed out, you dont need the biggest boiler in town for a capable machine for home. In fact, some smaller machines can be a whole lot nicer to live with than a bigger machine.

    Example: A smaller machine can have an idle temperature which allows you to walk up and pull a shot without flushing half a litre to cool it sufficiently. Bigger machines, especially if they havent been setup properly by the retailer, can run *hot*. As an example the 1.3l Diadema Junior Plus is a "small" machine that I think most homes would perfectly happy with.

    Of course a properly setup bigger machine may also be easy to live with while having more in reserve - but at a price.

    charlie




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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 217E66707B707C757576767E727D130 link=1237633261/4#4 date=1237678964
    Hi Renzo,

    The element in the Giotto is 1700W. Its one of the specifics of the Australian spec.

    Ill forward your post on to ECA and request that they update their website. The inclusion of a 1700W element was one of the upgrades incorportated into the GPP.

    2mcm
    Chris,

    Just to clarify, following a discussion with ECA this afternoon:

    The Giotto Premium Plus is a 1300W machine.

    In the last few batches arriving to Australia there has been a mix of both 1200w & 1300w units, hence the inconsistency in specification on the different publications.

    If you look at the bottom of your Demo Giotto, you will find the units ID Card which is your most reliable indication of element capacity. You will find either 1200w or 1300w.

    It is understood that all units from now on will come with a standard 1300W element, and all publication would be gradually modified to reflect that.

    Kindly contact ECA for further queries, if any.

    Renzo




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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Thanks Renzo- bizarre mixed messages ::)



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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3A657D6B606B676E6E6D6D656966080 link=1237633261/1#1 date=1237634385
    Andy Freeman has a Giotto and recently used it to make 2000 coffees in a 40hr straight session
    That 1200 or 1300w element obviously slowed him down! ;D


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    Re: Does size really matter?

    Im confused. So is the GPP 1200, 1300 or 1700W?

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    CraigA;

    Any machine that will be purchase from today onwards will come with 1300w element.

    Regards


    Renzo

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    Re: Does size really matter?

    All good Renzo,

    As per any other machine, I guess its always a case not so much of size rather than execution ;D

    Thanks for clarifying...

    2mcm



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