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Thread: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

  1. #1
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    2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Previously owned a very reliable cheap Breville 800 fitted with unpressurized basket which produced acceptable coffee with fresh beans.

    My experience since Upgrading *to a new 2009 Giotto Premium has been very disappointing owned this lemon for 3 weeks.

    Day 1 *was a positive day achieved excellent shots *with the Giotto and my new Mini Mazzer grinder.

    Day 2 went to turn Giotto on and the water tanks contents had leaked out all over the kitchen not impressed.
    Pulled tank out the o ring seemed very loose wrapped Teflon tape *in tanks groove *this minimized leaking.
    Contacted site sponsor I purchased the Giotto from and arranged to return the Giotto *back to Graham *at Euro Coffee.
    Graham had a look at the Giotto and ordered a new component that the tank slides into.

    Day 20 picked up the Giotto went home pulled some shots all OK

    Day 21 woke up to *discovered Giotto still has a leak at least only a slight leak. I *turned the Giotto on for 30 minutes and when I
    lifted the group lever to pull first shot Nothing happens vibrator pump
    is not working tried working *lever up and down still not working.
    The lever seams to push the limit switch in Ok
    Noticed lever *is becoming very stiff and is squeaking turned Giotto off
    in disgust.

    Has anyone else experienced issues with their new Giottos

  2. #2
    TC
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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Hi Bienz,

    :-? I think thats just a tad of an overstatement.

    These are minor issues and more likley to be transit related than anything else. The fixes are simple. Its unlikley that they occured on the Grahams bench when he was checking your machine.

    Are you using over filtered water? If there are very low levels of dissolved solids, the machine will think it has no water as there is no conductivity through your water.

    1. The leak is most likley caused by a loose tank probe. This extends into the tank and is attached to the body of a machine by a lock nut. Check that this has not loosened due to movement. Check also that the tank is pushed fully into the tank coupling

    2. The stop is caused by the machine thinking that it has no water and protecting the element from failure. My advice is to disassemble the coupling on the base of the tank and *Check also that there is no plastic impeding the flow of water through the two holes out of the tank and then reassemble.

    Youre welcome to call if you need any assistance.

    Chris

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Absolutely no blame is or was directed towards Graham .

    My understanding is if the probe detected low water then the green indicator light should flash.

    I fail to see how a stiffening lever is a transit related issue.
    So far only 300 grams of ground coffee has been put through the machine.

    The probe is not loose and over filtered water is not the problem.
    Yes the tank was fully inserted in the machine I will not be removing the tank to refill with water just filling from the top.

    I believe this is a lemon I would have expected a machine in this price range would be free of issues.
    My son has had a Giotto since 2003 with no issues possibly the new Giotto"s are not as reliable time will tell.


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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 113A21333A37215B0 link=1247358679/2#2 date=1247361263
    My understanding is if the probe detected low water then the green indicator light should flash.
    Yes- but if there is plastic blocking the flow of water, this is exactly what will happen as the machine will think its low on water.

    Quote Originally Posted by 113A21333A37215B0 link=1247358679/2#2 date=1247361263
    fail to see how a stiffening lever is a transit related issue.
    No- more likley due to heavy use of backwash detergent removing all coffee oils from the lever spindle. We recommend no more than 1/4 teaspoon once a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by 113A21333A37215B0 link=1247358679/2#2 date=1247361263
    The probe is not loose and over filtered water is not the problem.
    You will only be able to check this by removing the tank. If there is any movement whatsoever, its loose. This could have happened when Graham reassembled the unit or in transit from him to you.

    If you are not prepared to check it yourself, have your machine checked. As stated, I believe that all except the lever are more likely than not transit or reassembly errors. Small issues present in many machines and across brands as well- which is why most sponsors run a comprehensive bench test.

    Chris

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    A_M
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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 517A61737A77611B0 link=1247358679/2#2 date=1247361263
    Absolutely no blame is or was directed towards Graham .
    While that may not be your intention... *Many would read it as such... As with any txt or e-mail the context and emotions cannot be seen but are assumed... *And we all know what happens when every one assumes...

    I am not going to jump on either side as to support... *However I have always found that working through all the issues over the phone with a follow up confirmation in writing (more often than not e-mail) and remaining calm; regardless of how my gut might feel is a good way to go...

    It is only once a resolution has been achieved or NOT ( as to what has been agreed to, ) *that I would post on a public forum...

    Any thing else opens an opportunity for mud slinging etc and this is detrimental to BOTH parties..

    Have the sponsors and other suppliers always delivered what I wanted and on time... NO.... *:o

    However in all but one case that went to Court "Village Road Show"; I have usually gotten an outcome that was more than acceptable to me and and not too heavy on/for the supplier..


    In addition:

    Quote Originally Posted by 517A61737A77611B0 link=1247358679/2#2 date=1247361263
    I believe this is a lemon I would have expected a machine in this price range would be free of issues.
    My son has had a Giotto since 2003 with no issues possibly the new Giotto"s are not as reliable time will tell.
    This could be seen as rather in "ya face "... *And could have been rephrased in such a way as to obtain further feedback... *As someone said here in another post.... *Information is one thing and making decisions on information is not always good... The information needs to be reviewed and assessed into intelligence ...

    Am I having a bad day... *Yes... *IS the post directed at you personally... *NO... *Many including myself make or have made the same errors in judgement and behaviour... *::) :o

    At the end of the day; I trust you get your system sorted and the RCA is performed such that your happy and every one understands what went belly up and what might have caused it...

    Welcome to CS... *We all like to have a say and the open communications and rigor that is applied; is to ensure everyone gets a fair hearing....

    Oh my dear... I need a coffee bad... ;)




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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C232A283F002C232C2A28202823394D0 link=1247358679/4#4 date=1247362820
    And we all know what happens when every one assumes...
    You make an ASS of U and ME ?

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    I will simply say that I did plenty of research before purchasing my 2009 GPP a month ago. I am completely happy with my purchase and the service I received and have had no problems...well my caffeine consumption has increased by 2 or 3 times. ;D

    One thing that was pointed out to me by the seller at the time of purchase was the need to ensure the tank is seated properly. It isnt that easy and you need to be fairly gentle; once you have located the tank properly it will go in easy and doesnt need to be forced. Like you, now I usually fill by a jug but you still need to take it out once per week and give it a clean.

    One box that was ticked while making my decision was that the quality of the Giotto has improved over earlier versions. If my understanding is correct, Rocket and ECA are constantly tweaking it t make further improvements. I also understand each machine is bench tested by at least ECA before distribution.

    Does this mean that every single machine produced will be completely fault free? No.

    Am I trying to sound like Kevin Rudd by asking and answering my own questions? Not on your nelly. Fair suck of the sauce bottle :P

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Bienz

    when i purchased my giotto (5 years ago) i had a few small issues and most user error rather then a faulty machine.
    Once it was shown to me i felt a little silly.

    Like you, i was frustrated, and let people know i was unhappy with the purchase....
    I was soon eating humble pie.

    Now, i am not saying you are wrong or right, but, just run a few simple checks as mentioned by Chris, or take it back again to get looked at.

    Stiff lever, agree, for such a new machine that is not good, can be repaired though.

    Nothing happening when handle lifted to brew a shot, again, i have had this issue and its always related to tank not in properly, or dirty probe. Dirty probe will not be your issue, so look at tank and make sure its seated properly and the probe is making good contact.

    Trust me, once you get it sorted it will all be worth while.
    At the end of the day, if it is a lemon, then i am sure you would be entitled to a replacement.

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Hi Bienz,

    Im with the others on this one. You have had an upgrade and the learning curve starts again.

    The leak is disappointing and Im sure that Graham will make it high priority to rectify it for you. I suspect it will be a tank seating issue or a loose tank probe allowing a leak from the coupling. Your description of the base of the tank and the teflon is is also normal. A spacer separates the section through which the water flows from the tank proper to maximise flow to the probe. Sometimes there can be plastic "leaves" partially blocking the holes in the tank and once these are cleared, flow from the tank is restored and hey presto, youre in operation again.

    If the lever remains tight, this is also easily fixed. Many owners have seen this with e-61 machines if backwashed using too much cleaner. A few water shots or a simple lubrication always solves it.

    Graham knows the Giotto well and Euro Coffee will get it right for you. He knows his stuff and operates a great business. Worry not about a lemon. I have had my head inside many hundreds of Giotti and am yet to see one. These are just teething problems and Im certain that they will be quickly rectified.

    Chris

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Hi Everyone ,

    I did not mean to come across the way some have interpreted my comments apologies to all.

    I am confident in Graham he is a very competent Technician and he spent considerable time fixing this Giottos *leak. Graham showed me the Giotto stripped down the machine looks very well made .
    He mentioned having issues with the probe leaking when he fitted the new tank receptacle he did not guarantee the machine would not leak again. I know I can return the machine again 120klm round trip.

    Chris I had removed the tank checked the probe and it was not loose
    Could not see any plastic blocking the tanks valve.

    When the Giotto failed to pump water the tank had *not been removed and reinserted as the *Giotto was working ok the previous day and the tank had approx 1 litre in it. I have since removed the tank numerous times I also wrapped a few turns of Teflon tape under the tanks O ring seams to have stopped the leaking.
    I have tried the *Giotto numerous times today *I was successful in making coffee on one occasion I suspect the problem maybe a
    faulty limit switch?

    The stiff lever was not caused by using excessive cleaner as I have not back flushed with cleaner as yet only water.
    I was planning to use cleaner on a monthly basis what are your thoughts regarding this cleaning regime.

    What is the recommended lubrication for the lever.

    Thanks to all

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Hey Bienz, dont let go of all your sense that it is just plain wrong to pay big bucks for a machine, only to have it not it for service apart for 1 day. It would have been reasonable for it to come to you in working order and especially it should have come back to you from initial return fixed.

    Was it anyones fault, probably not, but it does raise a question about the specific machine you have been provided with. The real question now is how does the supplier fix the situation for you. Hopefully quickly.

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 5972697B727F69130 link=1247358679/9#9 date=1247403900
    I was planning to use cleaner on a monthly basis what are your thoughts regarding this cleaning regime.
    Depends on the amount of coffees you make but Id be saying fortnightly at most.

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 2803180A030E18620 link=1247358679/9#9 date=1247403900
    I was planning to use cleaner on a monthly basis what are your thoughts regarding this cleaning regime.
    Just as a rule of thumb do it every 1 kg of beans you have made coffee with the machine

    Quote Originally Posted by 2803180A030E18620 link=1247358679/9#9 date=1247403900
    What is the recommended lubrication for the lever.
    Food grade hi temp grease about $8.50 per tube from Jaycar or some good hardware shops

    This grease can also be used on the problematic O Ring at the bottom of the tank for a good seal

    KK

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 765D46545D50463C0 link=1247358679/9#9 date=1247403900
    Chris I had removed the tank checked the probe and it was not loose
    Could not see any plastic blocking the tanks valve.
    Hi Bienz,

    Just to clarify, you will only see an issue here if you remove the tank and then unscrew the base from the tank to check that the 2 holes leading from the tank are clear.

    Cheers..

    2mcm

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 653A22343F3438313132323A3639570 link=1247358679/13#13 date=1247447519
    Just to clarify, you will only see an issue here if you remove the tank and then unscrew the base from the tank to check that the 2 holes leading from the tank are clear. *
    Yes the ports *leading away from the tanks receptacle are clear of
    blockages.

    Quote Originally Posted by 363532216560676E570 link=1247358679/10#10 date=1247405822
    Hey Bienz, dont let go of all your sense that it is just plain wrong to pay big bucks for a machine, only to have it not it for service apart for 1 day. It would have been reasonable for it to come to you in working order and especially it should have come back to you from initial return fixed.
    Yes *buying a machine and having problems is disappointing a Giotto
    is usually a good machine.

    My original posts intention was too see if other owners had similar issues with *their new *2009 Giottos.

    Some companies do strive to improve their *products on an ongoing basis , some just cost cut regardless of the outcome and sometimes a planned improvement fails. I am not pointing a finger at Giotto its just
    reality.

    The initial leaking was successfully rectified by *Graham he had issues with the design of the probe,s *sealing so he fitted a small O ring to rectify this problem.


    I removed the top cover of the Giotto and discovered that the current small leak is *when the water tank is reinsert *water is forced out of *a tube leading from the top port of the tanks receptacle to the top of the machine.
    The nylon stop ball that should be inside the ports tubing has either fallen out or was never installed at the factory.

    Since I removed the top cover the Giotto is functioning *occasionally the vibrator has refused to work so far the limit switch has been eliminated as a suspect along with the water being too pure or a *tank blockage being the issue.
    I am waiting for the pump to stop again.
    I am in the electrical / electronic service industry myself and resolving the source of an intermittent issue can be elusive at times.
    Current thoughts are maybe the vibrator or the control module is the problem may even be a loose connection.
    Would any one know where to locate an electrical circuit for the Giotto.
    Weekends are my only option to visit Graham at Euro. I am confident the issues can be resolved one way or another.

    The question is when is a purchased product a lemon.

    Sorry I am drifting of course now. *
    A company I worked for a few years ago bought seven Mercedes *total cost $A1.5 million *and the managers * Mercedes *$350000.00 was a *unreliable lemon *one issue after the other, poor bugger no lemon laws covering vehicles in Australia.
    The reality is all companies can produce an unintentional lemon

    May God shots flow for all. *(I do mean coffee *)

    Bienz



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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Hi Bienz,

    You really need to return your machine to your vendor for service and/or inspection by ECA.

    By fiddling around, you risk voiding your warranty and making your unpleasant experience a whole lot worse by being refused a warranty claim.

    For your own sake, please do the right thing and return the machine for inspection and service by an ECA authorised service centre. Alternately, Graham may be able to offer you a more convenient alternative.

    2mcm

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    Re: 2009 Giotto Premium Poor Quality and Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by 654E55474E43552F0 link=1247358679/14#14 date=1247572686
    My original posts intention was too see if other owners had similar issues withtheir new2009 Giottos.
    As an owner of both a 2007 and a 2009 Giotto (not long out of the box) I have to say that I have had no problems at all.

    Side by side, I think the 2009 model is a far better machine, nice update on the drip tray, the perspex cup warmer wall is better designed and the lever itself has a better "feel". *

    Im sure yours will be as good as mine when you get it off to ECA for inspection.



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