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Thread: Giotto steaming question

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    Giotto steaming question

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Ok folks, first question for the giotto!

    Someone told me here that a Giotto would steam 1 lt of milk no probs, now i took that as, it could steam 1 lt of milk without stopping, i mean it will do it but with a break at 42C then build up to 1.2bar again and hit it again, not overly worried as i only do 600ml Jugs usually, but even with the 600ml Jug, (say 500ml milk) it screams in the last 5 C or so, is this normal for the Giotto?

    And one more, where is the ml measurement on milk jugs taken from, is it total capacity or to the bottom of the spout?

    cheers snobbers!

    ps i love the Giotto ;D

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B4F697070756A7D721C0 link=1253085027/0#0 date=1253085027
    Ok folks, first question for the giotto!

    Someone told me here that a Giotto would steam 1 lt of milk no probs, now i took that as, it could steam 1 lt of milk without stopping, i mean it will do it but with a break at 42C then build up to 1.2bar again and hit it again, not overly worried as i only do 600ml Jugs usually, but even with the 600ml Jug, (say 500ml milk) it screams in the last 5 C or so, is this normal for the Giotto?

    And one more, where is the ml measurement on milk jugs taken from, is it total capacity or to the bottom of the spout?

    cheers snobbers!

    ps i love the Giotto ;D
    I would have thought that seeing as you can only make 2 shots, 300-400ml of milk woud be adequate? *:-?

    Measurement is total capacity- which is why you need a 600ml jug for 2 coffees....

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    The mL measurement is full capacity

    I havent tried steaming a 1L jug, but when Dennis (Cuppacoffee) demoed my GPP, he ran the steam wand from full to exhausted and it went for some time. I would be very surprised if you cant get a non-stop texture of 500mls of cold milk ina 1L jug.

    Give it a go and let us know.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    THe giotto can easily steam 500ml of milk in one hit, sure the boiler has to fill during that time but it doesnt diminish the steam to the point that you need to stop, I did 100 coffees the other week and saw no issue with the machines ability to produce enough steam.

    Mal

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    As mentioned, if its only a half-filled 1L jug (i.e. 500ml) then the Giotto should be able to texture that without skipping a beat.


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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Cheers guys, yeah it will do 500 without a prob, still having dramas with microfoam though, I get decent silkiness but still some larger bubbles that dont knockout when tapped, Im not a fan of tapping on the bench I might add, is it possible to get a photo of someone holding the jug to show the angle, Ive got the depth ok its Just the angle Im confused by, the milk just swirls so quick and im not used to it coming from a Silvia *:( I had a laugh, i used to get brilliant microfoam from silvia, and im sure ill get there, but it just alludes me at this stage ;)
    cheers
    Warren

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Heres what I do

    Rest the jug on the drip dray with the steam wand inside.

    Lower the wand till its just touching the surface (in the middle of the jug) and turn the steam on full.

    When the desired amount of stretching has occurred (a couple of seconds), push the steam wand to near the side get the whirlpool happening.

    Wait until desired temp is reached and turn off the steam.

    Tap jug on bench to get rid of any bubbles and swirl to polish the milk.

    Works for me

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Ill give that a go flynn, is that with the 600? are you saying literally a couple of seconds? what temp approx are you looking at when dumping it lower, i know it was around 35 C on the silvia,
    cheers
    warren

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    600 or 400ml jug

    I no longer use a thermometer and didnt ever use one when judging the point to dump lower. Based on KKs advice the initial texturing of a 400ml jug should be about 1 sec. A couple of secs for the 600ml.
    Theoretically you start with the wand near the edge.
    I find that the initial stretching raises the milk to the corect level so I dont have to dip lower when stretching.

    I should give credit to Dennis as this is pretty much how he did it during the demo. Worked a treat. Good thing is that you dont have to hold the jug while texturing

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    I have no troubles at all steaming 1 lt of milk.

    2 latte for the grown ups
    2 hot Chochies for the kids

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Cheers Flynn, Ill give it a go

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E2C28342F2F38313A2F342D5D0 link=1253085027/9#9 date=1253095200
    I have no troubles at all steaming 1 lt of milk.

    2 latte for the grown ups
    2 hot Chochies for the kids
    so 1lt in a 1.5 lt jug? mine wont do that.......... :(

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Unless................

    Quote Originally Posted by 6F6B4D5454514E5956380 link=1253085027/0#0 date=1253085027
    i mean it will do it but with a break at 42C then build up to 1.2bar again and hit it again
    anyone else tried 1 lt volume of milk?

    On another note, flynns advise in regards to texturing works a treat, anyone reading this who is haveing dramas should give it a go, so easy!<

    cheers flynn

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    i have done 1ltr of milk with no problems on my ecm giotto premium

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    When lots of milky drinks are ordered, I just use a 1.0Lt Pitcher filled to the bottom of the spout impression and clean out/refill as many times as needed. Doesnt take long and the shots dont get a chance to cool down very much.... ;)

    Need to work on a routine and itll all fall into place.... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C31353934580 link=1253085027/14#14 date=1253261017
    When lots of milky drinks are ordered, I just use a 1.0Lt Pitcher filled to the bottom of the spout impression and clean out/refill as many times as needed. Doesnt take long and the shots dont get a chance to cool down very much.... ;)

    Need to work on a routine and itll all fall into place.... :)

    Mal.
    I could go a L of coffee right now..... Check ya PM.. In a servo just down the road...

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Ok folks, so if your Giottos do 1lt of milk ( actual milk) and mine will only do it with 2 hits, should I be returning it for repair?

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 1B1F392020253A2D224C0 link=1253085027/16#16 date=1253272198
    Ok folks, so if your Giottos do 1lt of milk ( actual milk) and mine will only do it with 2 hits, should I be returning it for repair?
    Hi WSully. A 1L jug = 500ml milk...Are you using a 2L jug and if so why?

    You can only make 2 shots at once and therefore should never need more than 400ml. Are you attempting hot coffee milkshakes?

    Your machine is normal but perhaps you have unrealistic expectations. Its not a 12L boiler commercial machine ;)

    Maybe you needed this http://www.espressocompany.com.au/steam.htm *:P

    2mcm

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E2B2C2A05440 link=1253085027/13#13 date=1253253945
    i have done 1ltr of milk with no problems on my ecm giotto premium
    no 2 mcm, Im not trying to make coffee milk shakes, people are saying they can do 1lt, I gave it a go to test the machines limits, my question was, can ppl steam 1lt of actual milk....ppl said yes, I was simply wondering if their was a genuine problem with the machine.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 090D2B323237283F305E0 link=1253085027/18#18 date=1253273957
    Quote Originally Posted by 0E2B2C2A05440 link=1253085027/13#13 date=1253253945
    i have done 1ltr of milk with no problems on my ecm giotto premium
    no 2 mcm, Im not trying to make coffee milk shakes, people are saying they can do 1lt, I gave it a go to test the machines limits, my question was, can ppl steam 1lt of actual milk....ppl said yes, I was simply wondering if their was a genuine problem with the machine.
    Id suspect that theyre using a 1L jug...

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Cheers

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    nope 2l jug

    havent done it in a while, but this Sunday have lots of guests with a few kids, so ill put it to the test again as i will have to make a fair few hot chocs.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 644146406F2E0 link=1253085027/21#21 date=1253276142
    nope 2l jug

    havent done it in a while, but this Sunday have lots of guests with a few kids, so ill put it to the test again as i will have to make a fair few hot chocs.
    Hi John,

    Youre pushing your machine well beyond what it is designed to do. Firstly, check that you dont run it below 0.5bar or youll end up with milk in the boiler.

    My advice FWIW- use 2 x 1L jug and let the machine recover or you may end up with premature component failure.

    2mcm

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 124D554348434F464645454D414E200 link=1253085027/22#22 date=1253276842
    Youre pushing your machine well beyond what it is designed to do. Firstly, check that you dont run it below 0.5bar or youll end up with milk in the boiler.

    thank god for this site and for the knowledge people like you have. Thanks for the tip. ill make sure i dont do that to my giotto.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 633C243239323E373734343C303F510 link=1253085027/22#22 date=1253276842
    Firstly, check that you dont run it below 0.5bar

    Am I the only GPP owner only who feels a bit put out by that info? I bought the GPP with the impression that its steaming power was well above my old VBM Piccolo. Am I really back to the scenario where I can really only prepare two milk-based drinks at a time? Yeah, yeah I know this ensures the shots dont cool while milk is being textured but, I would like to think I could comfortably prepare 4 at a time.

    Ive been keeping my eye on the gauge and I find that after texturing a 600mL jug the gauge didnt finish that far above 0.5 bar -> about .7 or .8. How would this compare to the VBM DS which has more grunt or other HX machines?

    Id recommend milk steaming ability be quoted in the specs as it might influence buying decisions for those who need greater steaming ability

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Thats fine Flynn,

    A 600ml jug will be no problem at all. A 2L jug is massive overkill though and the machine is not designed to do that.

    Chris

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Ok, so this morning i steamed a 500 ml of actual milk in a 1lt jug, it started screaming at 45C but got to 65C, the guage got to just below 0.5bar..........surely this cant be right, as flynn said, i was under the impression that this machine had a greater steaming ability, my silvia did 500ml of milk without screaming........with a 300ml boiler!, also if it sits idle at 1.0 bar i cannot steam 500ml of actual milk, i have to wait for it to hit 1.2bar on the guage at the top of its cycle to start steaming......is this right? :o

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 020F0C02600 link=1253085027/3#3 date=1253085893
    THe giotto can easily steam 500ml of milk in one hit, sure the boiler has to fill during that time but it doesnt diminish the steam to the point that you need to stop
    Oh and when the boiler refil does kick in, steam virtually stops......

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A4F4245716D4148484B4B2E0 link=1253085027/25#25 date=1253664820
    A 600ml jug will be no problem at all.
    That I know, or did you mean 1L? A 2L jug would be overkill, but it sounds like steaming in a 1L jug is not advisable despite your advice to JohnA as the manometer drops below 0.5 as WSully just pointed out.

    So if 0.5bar is the minimum safe limit to avoid milk in the boiler, should we be looking at some sort of mod to improve steaming capacity or is it just boiler size which determines this?

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    at what point does yours scream flynn? if at all, its so loud!, from 45C to 65C no one can talk in my house >:(

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Mine doesnt scream. It sings sweetly ;D

    I think screaming has something to do with how deep the steam wand is immersed after stretching. With the technique I use, the steam wand stays just below the surface after initial stretching.

    Check out Scottie Callaghans milk texturing vid here.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Ill give it a go flynn when i get home, to see if it makes a difference, from my experience though, its through lack of steam power, well thats what it was in the silvia, sometimes i wish i could just up the pressure of the boiler! ;)

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Fe me, its still a case of how much milk can you add to a single shot and still taste the coffee. Lets keep *$ out of the home I say :-?...

    Prosumer espresso machines are not commercial steam machines, nor are they hot chocolate machines or kettles. Use them as designed and they will perform well. Choose not to and you may face problems. Your choice....

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    What sort of milk?

    The only time Ive had "trouble" with the 2 Giottos that Ive had is when using weird milks... and even then I tend to agree with Flynn that it might just be technique.

    Grab some full cream milk, make sure its nice and cold and try again with the tip just under the surface, close to the middle of the jug.

    The type of jug might have something to do with it too. *For a lot of cups in a row I use a couple of the Pura 1lt jugs that work great (bulb shaped), but mostly its a generic 600ml one I use. *

    The espro jug is a screamer if everything isnt right too.

    (edit--- I should have said... 1lt jugs with 500-600ml of milk!)

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Ok chris, my question was, well implied anyway was, what causes the screaming? is it from the depth of the wand or steam pressure?,

    And secondly, surely 500ml of steamed milk is not an unreasonable request out of a 3k machine, 2 x 250ml milk drinks??? i just dont think it should be a problem,

    This is a genuine question on whether i have a faulty machine or not, ppl on this thread have said they have steamed 1lt of actual milk, not that i would now attempt this after your advise, but there isnt a chance that my GPP will do it sucessfully without hitting it twice......suggesting there IS something wrong....or are you suggseting "freak machines" are out there, ive known cars to do simular things, two cars, brand new, excact same vehicle, one faster than the other.........

    Interested in your thoughts chris

    cheers mate
    warren

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 43476178787D62757A140 link=1253085027/34#34 date=1253677155
    Ok chris, my question was, well implied anyway was, what causes the screaming? is it from the depth of the wand or steam pressure?,

    And secondly, surely 500ml of steamed milk is not an unreasonable request out of a 3k machine, 2 x 250ml milk drinks??? i just dont think it should be a problem,

    This is a genuine question on whether i have a faulty machine or not, ppl on this thread have said they have steamed 1lt of actual milk, not that i would now attempt this after your advise, but there isnt a chance that my GPP will do it sucessfully without hitting it twice......suggesting there IS something wrong....or are you suggseting "freak machines" are out there, ive known cars to do simular things, two cars, brand new, excact same vehicle, one faster than the other.........

    Interested in your thoughts chris

    cheers mate
    warren
    Hi Warren,

    My honest thoughts are that this is a silly thread ::)

    If you are making a 250ml drink, it will include coffee and textured milk- i.e more like 400ml max. As to how youll taste the coffee, I dont know because it will be very weak.

    I sometimes use an 800ml (<400ml milk) jug with our Giotto demo and it does it comfortably. If you are looking to do more than that in one hit, my opinion is that your expectations are unrealistic. The ultimate steam volume is influenced by the boiler size and pressure it runs at as well as valve diameter. If you want more steam, take your boiler to 1.25 bar max. This will come at the expense of a cooling flush.

    As for screaming, I find that the most common cause is that the nut on the group handle requires adjustment. If the milk screams, you are heating rather than aerating and need to lower the jug until you hear air. There is no need to immerse the Giotto wand. Work just under the surface.

    Once again, my opinion is that your machine is operating normally but if you are still not convinced, have it tested by an authorised service agent. You will either get a repair or an invoice for the test if nothing is wrong with your machine.

    Ill leave this thread to you guys now...

    Chris

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Thanks for the answers chris, very helpful, once again text doesnt convey emotion and im guessing you may have got a little stroppy about this question, sorry about posting a "silly" question, and im sorry about not knowing everything, seems im not the only one with concerns in this thread.


    Thankyou

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 696D4B525257485F503E0 link=1253085027/36#36 date=1253678392
    seems im not the only one with concerns in this thread.
    Actually, if you go back through the thread it seems you do have far more concerns than any of the other contributors.

    Im totally curious as to where you got your machine because I would expect that these fundamentals to be covered in your relationship with the vendor (if it was a Sponsor).

    Following that, it sounds like some training might not go astray.


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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A7B7070776D1E0 link=1253085027/37#37 date=1253680521
    (if it was a Sponsor).
    Yes den, i bought the GPP and Best from Serge at Go Barista, a site sponsor, no i havent asked him these specific question.......i thought that was one of the ideas of CS ;), ive never had problems asking questions in the past, dont really know why this one turned heads :(

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A7B7070776D1E0 link=1253085027/37#37 date=1253680521
    Following that, it sounds like some training might not go astray
    Im consistently getting amazing microfoam with the GPP now thanks to flynns tips, it was simply a capability based question. And i will always take advice from the experts here, its just one person was saying one thing, another was saying another.......

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A7B7070776D1E0 link=1253085027/37#37 date=1253680521
    you do have far more concerns than any of the other contributors
    Hence i started the thread :P, flynn was aslo concerned about the GPPs capabilities, i was just asking the brainstrust for some advice, to share their experiences with the GPP in relation to steaming.

    Cheers Dennis


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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 0602243D3D3827303F510 link=1253085027/38#38 date=1253681668
    Im consistently getting amazing microfoam with the GPP now thanks to flynns tips
    Denniss actually. He demonstrated steaming on the GPP that way and got a great result. I used the same method and ditto. Im just sharing it.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Oh yes, i stand corrected, cheers den!

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Caution--rash speculation and inappropriate comparisons ahead!--

    Im going to say that I think Warren has an issue, whether it is an issue in real practice I cant say.

    However,--

    I just steamed 500 ml of water to 80°C using my machine. The pressure dropped from 1.05 bar (idle) to .6 bar.

    Now, I wouldnt want 500 ml of milk that hot, and that much milk would do about 8 of my standard piccolo lattés anyway, so Id probably never do it.

    But I would have thought its steaming capability was very similar to the Giotto. Anybody out there with a Giotto prepared to do the test?

    Greg

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 767C697E7E716563100 link=1253085027/39#39 date=1253684996
    Quote Originally Posted by 0602243D3D3827303F510 link=1253085027/38#38 date=1253681668
    Im consistently getting amazing microfoam with the GPP now thanks to flynns tips
    Denniss actually. He demonstrated steaming on the GPP that way and got a great result. I used the same method and ditto. Im just sharing it.
    I dont think Ive ever sold a machine where I didnt explain the fundamentals in relation to how it operates, pointed out what I think are positives and could be improved upon, given the purchaser the opportunity to learn how to make a pretty good coffee before they leave the shop, and asked them to call me in a week or so to let me know how they were going. I guess this is why I was bamboozled. I regard Serge as a good friend (and a great Roaster) and feel confident he would also be happy to help.

    Anyway Warren, if youre ever down Sylvania way, Id be pleased to freely provide any assistance if you feel it would be of benefit.

    Cheers!


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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 74415654645C415E525F57330 link=1253085027/41#41 date=1253687190
    Caution--rash speculation and inappropriate comparisons ahead!--

    Im going to say that I think Warren has an issue, whether it is an issue in real practice I cant say.

    However,--

    I just steamed 500 ml of water to 80°C using my machine. The pressure dropped from 1.05 bar (idle) to .6 bar.

    Now, I wouldnt want 500 ml of milk that hot, and that much milk would do about 8 of my standard piccolo lattés anyway, so Id probably never do it.

    But I would have thought its steaming capability was very similar to the Giotto. Anybody out there with a Giotto prepared to do the test?

    Greg
    Im happy to give it a go but probably wont get a chance to do so until tomorrow morning.

  45. #45
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 013423211129342B272A22460 link=1253085027/41#41 date=1253687190
    I just steamed 500 ml of water to 80°C using my machine.
    Was the water as cold as milk straight out of the fridge?

  46. #46
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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 71505B5B5C46350 link=1253085027/42#42 date=1253688284
    Anyway Warren, if youre ever down Sylvania way, Id be pleased to freely provide any assistance if you feel it would be of benefit.
    cheers den! :)
    Quote Originally Posted by 72475052625A4758545951350 link=1253085027/41#41 date=1253687190
    I just steamed 500 ml of water to 80°C using my machine. The pressure dropped from 1.05 bar (idle) to .6 bar.
    Now i just attempted to steam 500ml of water (tap) in a 1lt Jg using the Giotto, the pressure dropped from 1.2(idle) to >.5 and it only got to 67C >:( and it was screaming from about 50C and on.

    Having said that, this afternoon i made 4 milk drinks for the family, 2 shots 400ml milk, screamed a little, then ground tamped poured and steamed teh same again, with no screaming, and it steamed without any hesitation, it seamed as though it would have prolly taken the milk to beyond 85C, just wondering why it steamed the second jug easier than the first?

    I did a heap of milk drinks the other day and noticed this too, the first one was the problem, after that they seemed ok

    And i can only guess that the Diadema with the 2lt? boiler handles the steaming job a little better due to the .2lt difference

    Serge was great too den, made an amazing offer on the GPP, i was severely short on time when i picked it up from him in his beautiful little shop in Ashmore, personal circumstances didnt allow me to stay for too long :(.

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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 13173128282D32252A440 link=1253085027/27#27 date=1253667884
    Oh and when the boiler refil does kick in, steam virtually stops......
    I dont have this issue when the boiler does a top up while steaming, i dont get any noticeable change in steam pressure, the swirling motion is just the same

  48. #48
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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B76757B190 link=1253085027/46#46 date=1253707893
    Quote Originally Posted by 13173128282D32252A440 link=1253085027/27#27 date=1253667884
    Oh and when the boiler refil does kick in, steam virtually stops...... *
    I dont have this issue when the boiler does a top up while steaming, i dont get any noticeable change in steam pressure, the swirling motion is just the same
    what about the manometer? Does it drop?

  49. #49
    Caffeine Junky
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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Out of pure curiosity I took 700ml of cold (fridge) water today and heated to 80C in a 1L jug using my ECM Giotto. No issues at all and still had plenty of steam. Boiler pressure dropped to ~0.6bar.

    WSully if you managed to make all those coffees without a sweat then, as Chris suggests, there is probably nothing wrong with your machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B7F594040455A4D422C0 link=1253085027/45#45 date=1253698602
    just wondering why it steamed the second jug easier than the first?
    Did you use the same jug? *If so then you would have started at a higher temperature due to the warm jug.


  50. #50
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Giotto steaming question

    Whats the boiler size of the ECM Giotto, CJ?




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