Think you might have meant rogue, e-61 :-?
I appreciate that you might be concerned about “rouge” or "grey" importers but please don’t dare to insinuate that all importers are dodgy just because their machinery is not Australian Certified.
Is the Rocket Giotto or any of the VBM machinery certified to Australian standards? This machinery has been represented by a distributor for many years in Australia and has not been certified.
I think we both agree that all machinery subject to any type of pressure or is powered by electricity should be certified to appropriate Australian Standards, however Customs are not holding uncertified machinery at the border and it is not illegal sell espresso machinery in Australian without an Australian certification.
I think you will find that all reputable European imported machinery has the `CE certification which is required through out Europe. Australians consumers can take comfort in that.
Think you might have meant rogue, e-61 :-?
Just trying to make a firm point and included a bit of a pun to keep the discussion "cool" 2mcm
I dont take much comfort in that at all. Many European companies self-certify rather than third party certify and conform to a set of directives that arent stringent. ;)Originally Posted by 0D7E79480 link=1254711856/3#3 date=1254722850
The assessment process used by EU manufacturers to determine whether their product conforms to the relevant legislation differs from product to product. Yes - A manufacturer can make a self-declaration to obtain the CE Mark for products which are classified to be low risk, however products which are classified as high-risk require a comprehensive assessment of the product and quality system.
FYI *product categories and their assessment requirements are specified in the "New Approach Directives" which are published by the European Union
Dennis - if you dont find any comfort in the CE mark then why are you reselling machinery to your customers which is not Australian certified *and only CE marked?
I think the concern here is whether an Australian distribution and support network has been created yet.
e-61, can you clarify things as to which company imports and distributes in Australia for Gruppo Izzo? Also, has testing for the Australian market occured?
Interesting line of thought you have.Originally Posted by 136067560 link=1254722851/4#4 date=1254725863
I resell machinery despite the CE mark - not because of it. And because what I sell has been tried, proven, and comes from an importer that I trust. I know the equipment I sell and I know it makes good coffee. I like promoting the idea of making coffee at home, on equipment I would happily have in my own home, and especially when the customer uses the coffee I have roasted.
How about you?
Im sorry Dennis are you saying that you have tried and disproven Izzo machinery and that that the importer is untrustworthy or that all CE marked machinery is dubious except the machines you sell?Originally Posted by 67464D4D4A50230 link=1254722851/6#6 date=1254731026
Not how I read Dennis reply e-61.Originally Posted by 463532030 link=1254722851/8#8 date=1254736421
I read that he has similar and very reasonable concerns to those expressed earlier in the thread. Can you enlighten us on the appointed distributor and the existence of any testing regime for Australian product in our conditions, or is this still to happen? *:-?
Many other Euro machines have arrived to Australia only to fail in significant numbers. CSers will probably be keen to know if theyre going to be paying test pilots.
I think theres a lot of misunderstanding going on here and it needs to be sorted out in private.Originally Posted by 5A5E786161647B6C630D0 link=1254722851/7#7 date=1254731795
2mcm - As you have mentioned previously the Australian Distributorship is currently in the process of being formalised by Gruppo Izzo. This is a sensitive issue given that a huge number of boxes must be ticked including the best possible national support, reliable national distribution channels etc.Originally Posted by 257A62747F7478717172727A7679170 link=1254722851/5#5 date=1254727228
The appointed distributor would be wise to consider investing in Australian certification, however, this is a long and difficult process which is why so few machines imported into Australia have successfully obtained an "Australian" certification.
No doubt Gruppo Izzo will announce an Australian Distributor once they have done their due diligence and found a firm which will tick all their boxes, represent their brand in a professional manner and negotiated an agreement.
Without wanting to spam this thread - and only in response to your question - I will say that E61 Espresso Machinery Co is what you would call a "grey importer" of Izzo machinery. E61 is not a distributor for Izzo Machinery nor do we formally represent their firm here in Australia.
The Izzo machinery has enjoyed immense success in the UK and Italy. A lot of positive feedback can be found on the internet from many satisfied Izzo customers. Our dealings *with Izzo resellers and distributors worldwide lead to a relationship where we import a small number of machines from a reseller in Italy. Each machine sold in Australia is covered by an international warranty backed up by our local guarantee.
No doubt this relationship and our supply will cease once an Australian Distributor is formally appointed.
CE marking is a declaration by the manufacturer that the product meets all the appropriate provisions of the relevant legislation implementing certain European Directives.
It can be assessed via many different methods but is NOT the Golden stamp... Just Like Quality Certification..
In many cases the directives are about safety, be it electrical ie. 61010 etc or that it meets some other manufacturing guideline etc etc...
It does not always mean that it is fit for purpose... No unlike some Fridges from OS... Meets and exceeds most of the EU requirements but fails over here at well beyond any forecast... 220V is not 230V is not 240V and our ambient temp in the above 32C was never catered for in the standards etc that they built to in the EU..
The CE and Quality means that as consumers; there is some recourse and teh supplier may or may not choose to manage a recall or a after market fix or even a disclaimer as to its use.. In addition one can take some comfort that it should be electrical safe for use... May not perform but still safe.
With GREY importers, NO true Certification and or dodgy brothers - EVERY one looses except for the Grey importer; who just moves on and or changes names when shit hits the fan..
Be it an Izzo and or Behmor importer it should not be about TBM ( Tick based management) but more about a true focus on Quality and ongoing support for the equipment and those that have bought..
Bugger... The cheep soap box has just started to crack and the blue CE and C Tick markings has run; when I pissed my self...
Must jump on the e-bay and provide a neg feedback... ::)
ROFLMWAO... ;D :o
Not at all. There are no cryptic messages in what I said.Originally Posted by 186B6C5D0 link=1254722851/8#8 date=1254736421
Why?Originally Posted by 0A0E283131342B3C335D0 link=1254722851/7#7 date=1254731795
And why the angry face?Originally Posted by 0935283339382F3A32395D0 link=1254722851/10#10 date=1254737767
This is a coffee forum after all and Im sure there will always be plenty of interest when there is a possibility that a new machine is on the horizon. I dont see there is a necessity to keep such a thing private.
:) (to make up for your angry face)
Angry face was my reaction to the sniping comments.
Ill see your smiling face and raise you a :P
But AM, until the start of this thread I would have taken Australian Certification (with all the benefits you and the Behmor thread list) for granted when buying locally - its claimed above that this isnt a legal necessity and could in fact be common but everybody is skirting around that issue.Originally Posted by 0E21282A3D022E212E282A222A213B4F0 link=1254722851/12#12 date=1254738422
There isnt much consumer info on this is there ? *is it just an insurance issue for the distributor/importer/seller? *Your comment re voltage & climate design assumptions suggest product life issues?
Should we be hassling sponsors about this when considering shiny new toys ? *Did you ?
I look forward to seeing the new machines , specs look good .....
Though I think the tone of this thread is becoming tooooo personal.
If guys want to defend your turf , fine , just do it with great service and a customer focus....
Simple but expensive make more espresso machines in Australia
I believe that Boema - Australian made coffee machines since 1956 is the only manufacturer
I have been told but not confirmed that they make the machines as an assembly of Italian parts ??
What can I say... Let the buyer beware ::)Originally Posted by 4C5C5E4D5A463F0 link=1254722851/15#15 date=1254742855
Assume nothing... Often the real information is in the silence or what is not said...
People need to start to think for them selves... And to take responsibility for their OWN action... Top quality S&W Pistol meets large number of standards... And comes with its certification... Functionality is not 100% covered off as Accuracy and Performance is affected by the user and other factors.. Has a double safety action... User takes said item, disables Safety and places to head and states "I wonder if this is loaded" and pulls the trigger.
DOH... Is this a Performance issue / Functionality Or USER...
As to the last comment YES and YES..
I ask lots of Questions and yes.... CosmoreX Coffee coped a fair few e-mails from me; both prior to purchasing and afterwards... Why... Because I found issues that I did not expect and were foreseeable as to the potential for Safety issues.
My e-mail were polite and I received timely responses that addressed my concerns......
As an evaluator of tender responses and having to write many over the past 9 years... Many issues as to Certification / Accreditation / C Tick / CE marks / Standards and Performance are often a major issue.... I am also doing Contract Law and going for a Electrical Contractors Licence in 48hs... So for me it is second nature...
Like with Quality... Do I complain to the front desk... Na... I know quality does not always work teh way it should...
If the company has Certification.....
I ask to speak / be connected to the Quality or Regulation Affairs officer. I then make / provide feedback and request this a NCR or Ref Number be provided to me NOW. I also ask what their time frame is to provide me with the outcome of their investigations and to identify any actions and time frames....
I usually give them about 75% of the time they advised and follow up for a progress report.. By then I have also found out who the Certification company is and ask when their next Audit is due..
Things usually happen for me :-)
OPPS BOT - That soap box is still shaky... Bloody blue tack does not replace nails.. Will have to raise a NCR ;D
AM on a soapbox with a Smith and Wesson? *Sheez!
*ducks for cover*
Back to the topic though...
There does seem to be excessive faith being placed in the Australian certification system. Im all for certification and sensible regulation of safety critical products but the allusion its not Australian certified so it cant be safe is quite frankly, rubbish. There are numerous foreign regulations that exceed their Australian counterparts. To name a few:
- electrical sockets requiring a mechanical gate to prevent access by unearthed plugs (Singapore)
- direct contact electrical switches and electrical sockets other than low current shaver only type not permitted in bathrooms (UK).
In the case of the latter, does it make UK electrical regulations better/safer than Australia? Of course not. Every modern (first world?) jurisdiction will make risk vs. commercial based decisions and set their own regulations accordingly. The UK has decided that the risk your misses dropping her hairdryer into your bath is not acceptable and Australia has decided it is. :O
Now being new to smiley poker, I dont know what trumps a ;D so Ill just sit here confused :-?
Originally Posted by 6E31293F343F333A3A3939313D325C0 link=1254722851/9#9 date=1254736893both assumptions are spot on. Theres alot of us out here in the market and we need this level of info to enable us to make informed decisions.Originally Posted by 18393232352F5C0 link=1254722851/13#13 date=1254741628
To the forum as a whole....keep it up.....its these very frank and passion-fuelled discussions that draw me everyday to this forum.
Originally Posted by 5761617D655B4865707061040 link=1254722851/20#20 date=1254789117
Swings both ways Epic....
Ive worked in an Electrical Engineering capacity both here in Oz and overseas in quite varied situations and capacities in mining, mineral processing, power generation and heavy industry.
In by far most situations, the Oz certified electrical products exceed the design criteria of most overseas manufacturers and generally on a par with UK regulations, albeit with modification to suit our climatic conditions which has to do, in most cases, with..... Elevated ambient temperatures, higher relative humidity, higher air dust content, water ingress due to torrential rain, higher incidence of lightning strike, U/V light resistance, etc etc....
It is not at all uncommon to have foreign certified equipment retro-fitted and upgraded in order to comply with our regulations.
Gotcha Mal, great point. *But you seem to be talking about industrial equipment for mine sites etc?
Im not aware of any regs for domestic appliances that test for resistance to torrential rain, higher dust content and increased incidence of lightening strike. *But it would be one hell of a machine that held up to that, eh? *;)
Originally Posted by 06332A207475430 link=1254722851/23#23 date=1254881424
The issue is that for many - the ambient requirements and voltage management for Australia does have some interesting requirements..
Many of teh domestic items that do come in from OS (the EU- as a general); that just scrap in... Often have a higher failure rate on some parts / components due to the different standards..
But we are a bit OT... Most suppliers try to do the right thing, but $$$ is always a factor... Safety is often a bigger driver and thus functionality and other specs drop slightly to maintain $$$$.
I did not intend to suggest that some involved here are GREY importers... It was more around being aware and I have seen many a cheep shop selling White goods that should be marked as SINGLE use only..
You mean that you recommend that there should always be a distributor between the retailer and the manufacturer? I laud E61 for bringing in the Izzo - at one point there was only a dodgy Vic. company (non-sponsor) both distributing and retailing them at $4599. No real stock of them, no product knowledge etc.
If E61 are bringing them in, perhaps we should give them the same weight we give other site sponsors (and the same respect) regarding faith in their ability to do due diligence on products they sell and their ability to provide warranty repair and servicing on said machines.
Coming from the UK, I love being able to charge my shaver in the bathroom (and make toast if I so choose). ;D
I recommend that there is somebody who invests in the infrastructure and personnel required to test for suitability for the Australian market and then provide a support network including parts and service facilities for those who purchase them. A few machines purchased from an Italian retailer might not achieve that? *:-?
Think back to the Expobar Minore II. It was absolutely fine for Spain and the rest of Europe and yet when landed in Australia by Expobar, they died one by one.
Fortunately for those who purchased them here, Expobar provided amazing after sales support and every one was rectified, even if it failed out of warranty. Had the owners purchased direct from a middle man in Spain, they most likely would have been left holding a boast anchor.
I completely agree with you Chris.
However, Im not going to cast aspersions on the ability of a sponsor to arrange proper support with the manufacturer, or to provide it unless they have a track record of failing to do so with other products.
(not referring to anyone in particular in this post, more a general comment). Ideally everything would be certified, however as a previously qualified electrician (UK), Im aware that a skilled DIYer can produce products as well finished as a fully automated plant, and that certification can be prohibitively expensive. If certification achieves nothing for the user save pushing the price up to reflect certification costs, the benefit may be limited.
Agreed 100% coffeehorse. I understand that Gruppo Izzo are hoping to appoint an Australian distributor to ensure that whoever imports the machinery has the support network in place.Originally Posted by 624F4E455F425F522B0 link=1254722851/27#27 date=1255597280
In the meantime, Id love a play with one because the spec. sheet looks really good ;-)
hell yes, me too! added to that, theyre not tooo ugly, and much cheaper than a GS/3. so maybe the missus will let me have one when we won the lotto (if we started playing it!)Originally Posted by 613E26303B303C353536363E323D530 link=1254722851/28#28 date=1255605535