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Thread: My New Giotto

  1. #1
    sjn
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    My New Giotto

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Well I have finally updraded from my Sunbeam EM6910CoffeeMachine *and EM040 grinder.
    I was in Melbourne a couple of weeks ago and arranged to visit Chris at Talk Coffee. He was very informative and ran me through the features of the different machines he had on offer.
    I decided on the Giotto Premium Plus coupled with a Compak K3 Touch Grinder.

    It arrived at my Brisbane home securley strapped to a wooden skid all in good condition.

    Now comes the learning curve, I thought my 2 years experience with the Sunbeam would give me a fairly good start at being able to get a good espresso extraction out of my new toy. But not so easy, First unpack & setup up the new gear (easy fun part) All ready to go I grind & tamp just like I have been doing for so long, give the Giotto its first cooling flush and what do I get, lots of steam so much so that about a cupful of hot water came out before the steam & bubbles died down. Anyway ready to pour my fist shot - 30mil in 30seconds not bad I thought but the taste was woeful. Try again, make some changes to grind tamp dose etc but still extended cooling flushes required between shots. All up I used about a kilo of beans before I got to drink a cup of coffee that tasted OK. I am still experimenting and trying for better shots, the Giotto is behaving better now and not producing so much steam (from the group head).I guess it must have been the settling in period. Hopefully some photos soon.

    Regards to all


    Steve

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Hi Steve

    I too got a new Giotto last month. Im still learning as well, but I dont get steam at all out of the group head - I rarely do or need a cooling flush :-?

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Congratulations on your choice. One I endorse (unbiased opinion, of course ;))

    First thing, dont do a cooling flush unless its been sitting there idling for a long time. They are quite thermostable. I rarely do them on my GPP and if you cool it too much, you will get a sour shot. Try it without doing any cooling flush.

    also, I didnt have to worry about a settling-in period (mine came fro TalkCoffee/Cuppacofee as well)

    Whats your pressure gauge doing? It should move between 1.0 and 1.2 bar while idle (mine between 0.9 and 1.1). If it is going well above or below these limits while idling, give Chris a call to discuss (or Dennis at cuppacoffee while Chris is on hols)

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    Re: My New Giotto

    I also bought a GPP off Chris this year - it was fine straight out of the box.

    I rarely do a cooling flush.

    It seems strange that you are having problems, as Chris bench tests them before shipping - have you purged all the air from the boiler? (refer to the manual). ;)

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    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 252F3A2D2D223630430 link=1256091541/2#2 date=1256093393
    Congratulations on your choice. One I endorse (unbiased opinion, of course *;))

    First thing, dont do a cooling flush unless its been sitting there idling for a long time. They are quite thermostable. I rarely do them on my GPP and if you cool it too much, you will get a sour shot. Try it without doing any cooling flush.

    also, I didnt have to worry about a settling-in period (mine came fro TalkCoffee/Cuppacofee as well)

    Whats your pressure gauge doing? It should move between 1.0 and 1.2 bar while idle (mine between 0.9 and 1.1). If it is going well above or below these limits while idling, give Chris a call to discuss (or Dennis at cuppacoffee while Chris is on hols) *
    Thanks for your reply, I only do a cooling flush now before the first use after warmup (I let it warm up for about 1 hour)

    Pressure gauge Ok between 1.0 & 1.2

    I spoke to Chris on the phone before he went away he got me to make sure things were OK inside the machine. I must say again that it seems to have settled down now, just a mystery quirk.

    Steve

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    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 0F343A3F5B0 link=1256091541/3#3 date=1256101902
    I also bought a GPP off Chris this year - it was fine straight out of the box.

    I rarely do a cooling flush.

    It seems strange that you are having problems, as Chris bench tests them before shipping - have you purged all the air from the boiler? (refer to the manual). ;)
    Yep, followed instruction manual word for word.

    Steve

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    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Just did a check on the guage, it sits on just a fraction above 1.0 rises to a fraction above 1.2 at which point I can hear the water boil in the tank then slowly drops back to 1.0 whereby it repeats the process.

    Also to the owners of the Giotto PP how hot do your non-burn steam and hot water wands get? No way could I touch mine after steaming
    (way too hot)

    Steve

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Steve,
    my steam arm and water arm do get hot, but no hot enough that I cant touch em with a finger to move em back in, with out the cool touch you couldnt even do that, it makes quite a difference
    cheers

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    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B5F796060657A6D620C0 link=1256091541/7#7 date=1256123719
    Steve,
    my steam arm and water arm do get hot, but no hot enough that I cant touch em with a finger to move em back in, with out the cool touch you couldnt even do that, it makes quite a difference
    cheers
    Thanks for that,
    I will check it out tomorrow night

    Steve

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Congrats on the new toy Steve and welcome to both "The Pointy End" and "The Giotto Owners Club" ;)

    Firstly, yep as per WSullys post, the arm still gets hot, but nowhere near as hot as an uninsulated wand. I came from a Silvia and after steaming, the wand was untouchable without a tea towel. So the difference was very noticable for me.

    The very tip of the Giotto steam wand will still get extremely hot though, so take caution you dont accidentally brush your arm against it or something when cleaning up (Ive done that once or twice and its not fun *::)).

    Re the cooling flush, Like others have posted here, I too have rarely needed to do this. As you say, perhaps it was just being a bit quirky and if its settled down now, then thats great.

    When I bought mine (also from TalkCoffee), Chris remarked on how little hes been needing to do to these new GPPs in terms of adjustments out of the factory. He gets them up on the bench straight from the box and theyre apparently hitting the mark pretty decently.

    Ive certainly been pretty impressed with the consistency of my unit to date.

    Cheers,

    Caff

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Have to add that Ive had my GPP now for 3 weeks and Im just so impressed the teething problems have all been operator related!! But practice makes perfect and now I just cant wait to get home each day and turn that machine on and enjoy a good coffee. Its reassuring to read comments on this site re making the step up and having to get used to a new bigger and better machine, its not just me after all!

    I havent noticed any problems as youve discussed here, I did find out that the steam wand still gets hot but not untouchable unlike the tip!! :)

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Congratulations on your purchase sjn. Thats a nice combo you have there!

    We are getting our demo Giotto Premium Plus into the showroom next week. So if your still having problems with the operation of the machine Id be happy to have you by and talk through any operational issues and barista techniques that will help improve your experience on the machine. Address is 2/5 Commerce Circuit, Yatala, QLD. (07) 3801 8989


  13. #13
    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7C6769667A6B7C5D676A6B0E0 link=1256091541/11#11 date=1256203894
    Congratulations on your purchase sjn. Thats a nice combo you have there!

    We are getting our demo Giotto Premium Plus into the showroom next week. So if your still having problems with the operation of the machine Id be happy to have you by and talk through any operational issues and barista techniques that will help improve your experience on the machine. Address is 2/5 Commerce Circuit, Yatala, QLD. (07) 3801 8989

    *
    Thanks for that offer, I am certainly interested in improving my skills on this machine

    steve

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    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Just an update, I spoke with a techie at Espresso Company Australia who is making *arrangements for a repair agent in Brisbane to look at my machine. He is pretty sure he knowes what the problem is and is sending up some parts. Hopefully the outcome will be good be because so far it has been all very dissapointing. Putting it back in its box today awaiting drop off instructions.

    Steve

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    TC
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Thanks to the ECA boys for helping sjn with this one in my absence.

    Its really bizarre that it bench tested perfectly, has the usual thermosyphon restriction setup and yet behaves unusually after a road trip. I am out of ideas at present...

    Ill be having a chat with Dave and George from ECA on my return to suss out what (if anything) I missed :-/.

    Hope youre up and running pronto and we apologise profusely for the inconvenience.

    Ill send some browns north for you when I get back into town...

    Chris

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Hang in there sjn, i had a similar problem with my giotto, running too hot , and the guys at ECA fixed it . I had the wrong restrictor leading into the e-61 grouphead. Thanks again to Dave at ECA.
    cheers
    vvmac

  17. #17
    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 5959424E4C2F0 link=1256091541/15#15 date=1256465268
    Hang in there sjn, i had a similar problem with my giotto, running too hot , and the guys at ECA fixed it . *I had the wrong restrictor leading into the e-61 grouphead. *Thanks again to Dave at ECA.
    cheers
    vvmac
    Seems like that might have been my problem as well.

    sjn

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    Re: My New Giotto

    I run my PIDed Giotto at about 1.4 bar as this gives a head pour temp of about 92deg for water. It still needs a good cup flush after sitting for a while and steams for a little bit. After the flush its fine.

    I also run a restrictor in the head which does lower top temps.

    Re, your shots: you do need to tune it with the temp/pressure and get the right grind size. If you need to you can take the back off and adjust the OPV a little. I have dropped back my pressure to allow a coarser grind... but this becomes fiddly and personal taste.

    All the best.

  19. #19
    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C6C7779766A7B6C4D777A7B1E0 link=1256091541/11#11 date=1256203894
    Congratulations on your purchase sjn. Thats a nice combo you have there!

    We are getting our demo Giotto Premium Plus into the showroom next week. So if your still having problems with the operation of the machine Id be happy to have you by and talk through any operational issues and barista techniques that will help improve your experience on the machine. Address is 2/5 Commerce Circuit, Yatala, QLD. (07) 3801 8989

    *
    A big thank you to Roger at Supreme Roasters for your kind offer to assist.
    I spent some time with Roger at his showroom/roastery and his passion for coffee, *from roasting the bean through to brewing and savouring the flavour is truely evident.
    I would suggest that anybody living in Brisbane/Gold Coast region who is considering buying a machine *contact Roger at Supreme Roasters. His no obligation attitude is great and he is happy to share his coffee related knowledge.

    Steve

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Good to hear that youre now happy Steve,

    I am curious to know if anything was wrong with your machine?

    regards

    Chris

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    sjn
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 04313C3B0F133F36363535500 link=1256091541/19#19 date=1257629869
    Good to hear that youre now happy Steve,

    I am curious to know if anything was wrong with your machine?

    regards

    Chris
    The thermosyphon restrictor was replaced (something about wrong size) Still get lots of steamy water from the group head but compared side by side with Rogers machine *its no different.

    Steve

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    SFS
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    Re: My New Giotto

    This is my first post and follows buying a Rocket Giotto Premium Plus + Mazzer Mini Manual yesterday from Chris of Talk Coffee.

    I started with a Saeco Incanto in 2003 and quickly upgraded to a Silvia + Rocky in 2004.

    One hour with Chris demonstrating how to use the GPP and MM together with technique tips on grinding, brewing and texturing has already paid off as my first latte, after an hour warmup, was much better than my wife and I expected and approached a reasonably good cafe standard. *:)

    Touch wood, I have no signs of the initial odd machine behaviour such as that sjn has experienced and look forward to becoming another satisfied GPP owner serving several impressive lattes at a time - something I have not been able to do until the GPP.

    Thank you Chris for the beaming smile on my face.

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Ive been lurking here mostly for over a year. The longer Ive been reading CS the higher my demands have got. So I thought I better nip that in the bud before I start demanding a La Marzocco or something like that. So I am a soon to be the owner of a GPP. It should go well with the Compak K3 grinder and the many beans one finds around inner city Sydney. Im rather excited.

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Great stuff Mentalist, hope you enjoy your Giotto, something to look forward to, its a great and enduring interest.

    Cheers,

    Jon. :)

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C545F45505D584245310 link=1256091541/22#22 date=1262043084
    Ive been lurking here mostly for over a year. The longer Ive been reading CS the higher my demands have got. So I thought I better nip that in the bud before I start demanding a La Marzocco or something like that. So I am a soon to be the owner of a GPP. It should go well with the Compak K3 grinder and the many beans one finds around inner city Sydney. Im rather excited.

    Good choice! Had mine for about 6 weeks now and my only regret is not doing it sooner! 8-)

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E060D17020F0A1017630 link=1256091541/22#22 date=1262043084
    a La Marzocco or something like that
    Itd certainly be an upgrade......oh, how I want a 2Gr Paddle Linea.

    Happy new year!

  27. #27
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    Re: My New Giotto

    Couldnt agree more. Ive currently got seven Italian machines of various types (only three of them coffee) and the Giotto PP is the only one which didnt cause at least some degree of buyers remorse.

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    Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    At 1400 hrs today I acquired a Giotto PP and Mazzer Mini Manual off Chris at Talk Coffee. I got very lucky, with Chris giving me the pre-Dec 31 price on the machine.

    Im not sure if it was down to my confidence or experience, but Chris didnt see the need to run me through the machine. :P

    Home and get everything set up (noticing that I am not supposed to use the Mazzer in a household evironment) and let the machine come up to temp.

    First shot runs veeeeery slowly, so I move the grind adjustment ring around, almost the same. Im still attempting to dial it in, the last shot I made ran 10s before the espresso came out, and then it wasnt flowing smoothly but glugging along a bit.

    I am getting significant tiger striping at the moment.

    Now, the coffee I am using is Chris Urban Blend, but it is rather young, being roasted on 01/01/10.

    So, first off, how much of the appearance of the crema could be put down to the youth of the coffee, and how much would be due to the slower-than-average pour?

    Also, regarding dosing, can anyone suggest an eye-level dose amount that suits the Giotto? I seem to either under-dose and get a little water remaining on the puck, or I overdose and cant actually lock the handle in place!

  29. #29
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 555C54544F525358474850543D0 link=1262779988/0#0 date=1262779988
    Anoticing that I am not supposed to use the Mazzer in a household evironment
    Hmmm,

    Thats a newie.... 2 million householders worldwide must be mistaken then :P ::)

    Given that the GPP is an E-61 based machine, Id suggest that you read through this thread... http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1167622442 from Chris first; especially given that I believe he was referring to a Giotto at the time. All the best mate.... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 48414949524F4E455A554D49200 link=1262779988/0#0 date=1262779988
    Chris didnt see the need to run me through the machine
    :-? :-?
    Quote Originally Posted by 48414949524F4E455A554D49200 link=1262779988/0#0 date=1262779988
    So, first off, how much of the appearance of the crema could be put down to the youth of the coffee, and how much would be due to the slower-than-average pour?
    I cant imagine the youth of the blend being a problem to the pour time, not knowing the blend, but i would imagine it would have a healthy amount of crema, but at this early stage it may blonde earlier........id be checking distribution.......

    i personally use a slightly bent finger to level on the basket, i half fill the basket, collapse, over fill basket, collapse, level, tamp, polish (no NSEW taps with teh tamp, i found it caused channeling)lock in and lever down to brew, 8-10 secs to first drip.

    Now if you not getting a fast enough flow, cant you just back off on the grinder a bit? shouldnt take anymore that 3-4 shots to get it right......ish ;D,

    Best of luck mate, sounds like your happy to be playing with your shiney new toy, its a great machine, and can* produce amazing results....






    *Dependent on so so many factors ;D ;D

    cheers
    warren



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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 032E2A262B470 link=1262779988/1#1 date=1262781273
    Quote Originally Posted by 555C54544F525358474850543D0 link=1262779988/0#0 date=1262779988
    noticing that I am not supposed to use the Mazzer in a household evironment
    Hmmm,

    Thats a newie.... 2 million householders worldwide must be mistaken then :P ::)

    Mal.
    Mal Im guessing that was a reference to the instruction book.

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 172B362D272631242C27430 link=1262779988/3#3 date=1262782046
    Quote Originally Posted by 032E2A262B470 link=1262779988/1#1 date=1262781273
    Quote Originally Posted by 555C54544F525358474850543D0 link=1262779988/0#0 date=1262779988
    noticing that I am not supposed to use the Mazzer in a household evironment
    Hmmm,

    Thats a newie.... 2 million householders worldwide must be mistaken then :P ::)

    Mal.
    Mal Im guessing that was a reference to the instruction book.
    Mine came with an A5 yellow sheet of paper reading:
    "WARNING!

    THIS APPLIANCE IS INTENDED FOR SKILLED PERSONNEL ONLY FOR COMMERCIAL USE, NOT FOR HOUSEHOLD USE"

  33. #33
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 506C716A606176636B60040 link=1262779988/3#3 date=1262782046
    Mal Im guessing that was a reference to the instruction book.
    Yep, thats what I was thinking too.... Just being a bit obtuse about it is all ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D40444845290 link=1262779988/1#1 date=1262781273
    Id suggest that you read through this thread... http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1167622442 from Chris first;
    Howd ya go reading this as suggested by Mal?, its a great starting point, i used it not so long ago when i became the proud new owner of my GPP.

    Im thinking of making a dosing tool for my GPP, my finger can leave lines in the ground coffee that are then compressed in tamping, this might help eliminate them.

    Let us know how your going with it ;)

    cheers
    warren

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Hi haiironezumi,

    Your confidence and stated hospitality background and machine experience when you collected yesterday led me to assume that you were 100% under control. *:-[

    Im more than happy to spend some more time with you and you are welcome to pop back in for a few shots when convenient. Our training notes are also in your email inbox.

    Worry not about 7-9 second delays before you see a pour. This is pre-infusion doing its stuff for you. Look for a pour which retains a little drippiness and most importantly, a moussey mouthfeel, sweetness and balance across your palate from Urban blend.

    The 01/01 batch is still a little young, but the punchiness is starting to subside a little and its more rounded now.

    http://www.espressocompany.com.au/how-to.htm is also a terrific resource.

    Let me know if you need a hand.

    Chris

  36. #36
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 515850504B56575C434C5450390 link=1262779988/4#4 date=1262785742
    Mine came with an A5 yellow sheet of paper reading:

    "WARNING! THIS APPLIANCE IS INTENDED FOR SKILLED PERSONNEL ONLY FOR COMMERCIAL USE, NOT FOR HOUSEHOLD USE"
    Quote Originally Posted by 537E7A767B170 link=1262779988/1#1 date=1262781273
    Thats a newie.... 2 million householders worldwide must be mistaken then
    Standard packaging warning on the Mazzer Mini

    We wont tell anyone that youre using it in a non-commerical environment Matt *;)

    The long pre-infusion time is normal - happens on my GPP too. Up to 10 seconds before anything appears.

    Dosing level is a little above the ridge of the filter basket from my experience. The GPP is fairly forgiving of over-dosed shots. Ive only managed to completely choke it once or twice.

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Pulling better this morning, suprised to have the Mazzer dialed in at just above 6, seems rather course, but then again I do tamp harder than average.

    I guess Im just used to the pre-infusion of around 5 seconds on a commercial machine, still learning the HX nuances.

    I have dosed rather heavily, but still have a watery looking puck on top, even though I have trouble locking the group handle in place!

    I know my tamper is slightly undersized for the basket, but it seems to be going ok for the moment.

    When timing a shot on a HX do you typically include the infusion time, or is it just from first drip to blonding/cut off?

  38. #38
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Look for about 25ml/25-30sec from the appearance of the first drip...

    2mcm

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 257A62747F7478717172727A7679170 link=1262779988/10#10 date=1262819534
    Look for about 25ml/25-30sec from the appearance of the first drip...

    2mcm
    Cheers too much coffee man (yes, I remember you from the magazine-which-Andy-is-not-involved-with forums), I wasnt sure if it included the pre-infuse!

  40. #40
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    I count the time from pump on to pump off when blonding starts.

    Greg

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    ;D With the concurrent thread weve had three definitions of the 30 second rule today (pump on vs full pressure vs first drip) - "And thirdly, the code is more what youd call "guidelines" than actual rules." * :)

    I guess as a guide to the inexperienced it probably doesnt matter which it is - "first drip" makes sense but Ive heard "pump on" the most.

  42. #42
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    More important is to stop the shot at the first sign of blonding (ie. when the extract suddenly goes pale). If you can manage to get 30 seconds after the first drips... then I applaud you and you must be nailing your dosing!

    Cheers
    Stuart.

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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    David Makins course teaches to start counting from the first drip too. That is how they do it at Veneziano first pour.

  44. #44
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B786B6B7C75190 link=1262779988/15#15 date=1262854604
    David Makins course teaches to start counting from the first drip too. *That is how they do it at Veneziano first pour.
    Its different when you have preinfusion though. I work at First Pour and I start counting from the moment I engage the pump, because its full pump pressure from the moment I engage it. Machines that have the ability to preinfuse the coffee will take longer for the coffee to come out. I would then suggest you start counting from the time you fully engage.

    Counting is just a guide. Let your eyes and tongue be the judge.

  45. #45
    Senior Member javabeen's Avatar
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    If you have a naked group handle then its time to use it. If not then try and get your hands on one. :)

    Id be using a naked group handle to help you identify when to stop the shot when using a new machine/roast batch/blend. Itll help you determine your dose and grind as well as highlight any distribution issues that a spouted group handle would hide.

    You can still get a bad tasting shot even if youre within the 7-10 sec preinfusion range and stopping at the first signs of blonding ;)

    Javabeen

  46. #46
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    This morning, first shot came through ok despite being a little heavy on the dose. Now it came through a bit faster than I would have liked. some fine tuning is the order of the day!

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    Re: My New Giotto

    Quote Originally Posted by 3C33375A0 link=1256091541/26#26 date=1262422556
    Ive currently got seven Italian machines of various types (only three of them coffee) and the Giotto PP is the only one which didnt cause at least some degree of buyers remorse.
    Your Ferrari been playing up again? ;)

    Well Ive been enjoying the machine tremendously but it feels like Ive moved from a clapped out old Datsun to a Ferrari. Most espressos Ive made have been undrinkable but the last few have been getting there. Practice and practice again I guess. As for my few attempts at texturising the milk (small steps at a time), oy vey, I need a bit more time on that. At the moment the milk is tasting too milky (if that makes sense) and isnt the right consistency. But it has been great fun so far.

  48. #48
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 28212929322F2E253A352D29400 link=1262779988/18#18 date=1262903965
    some fine tuning is the order of the day!

    fine tuning ....... It never stops


  49. #49
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    Re: Another "I have a new Giotto, now help!" thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 68616969726F6E657A756D69000 link=1262779988/0#0 date=1262779988
    noticing that I am not supposed to use the Mazzer in a household evironment
    I recently got a Mazzer Mini as well and got this yellow warning in it. It put a smile on my face and gave my ego a bit of a stroke! ;D

  50. #50
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    Re: My New Giotto

    I have also recently upgraded both machine and grinder. Until you do, you dont realise how comfortable you became with your previous kit. It is like you knew each other. When you get your hands on the new set up, you really need to go through that "getting to know each other" stage again.



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