Results 1 to 34 of 34
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By TC

Thread: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4

    Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Long time lurker first time poster.

    I have had a Giotto for the last 6 or so months and have been having some probelms with the water temp at the brew head.

    The machine is still pressure cycling between 1.08 and 1.3 bar but if I run water out of the brew head I can drink it straight away. That leads me to think its not a problem with the boiler pressure?

    It was returned to where I purchased it from approx 3 months ago and for the same problem and received some of the worst service I have ever experienced and was basically told they were no longer interested in servicing it and to take it elsewhere in the future.

    Not sure of what to do now seeing as I am experiencing the same problem?

    It seems like a pretty easy fix if all it requires is turning up the thermostat?

    Any advice or has anyone else experienced the same problems.

    Help........ :-[

  2. #2
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,081

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    If you dispense water from the hot water tap, is that still really hot? It should be above boiling point with a lot of noise and steam. Is the steam tap producing steam? If so, it isnt a boiler temp problem.
    That suggests it might be the brew temp needs adjustment. It could be other causes. It is hard for us to judge without seeing the machine.

    Have a look at the list of sponsors on the left and pick one near where you live and get them to have a look.

  3. #3
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Gday tomb and welcome,

    The definitive answer will be to find a tech with a Scace II who can do an accurate brew temperature check.

    Your pressurestat is as expected and in a machine operating as expected will deliver circa 94 deg. at the puck. You should be able to drink the espresso straight away, so if youre expecting to wait while it cools, you will be disappointed. Cool espresso from freshly roasted beans will deliver sour, watery espresso with pale crema from a good dose and normal pour rate. This is another way of picking a cool shot.

    Turning up the pressurestat is not the answer. Many Australians are accustomed to drinking tea at near boiling, so we need a more definitive test. ;)

    If youre in Melbourne, were happy to run a test and report for you. Quite a few Sydney sponsors also have Scace II devices.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Yeah no the steam pressure is still quite good and the hot water tap all seems as it should be.

    Is adjusting the brew temp as simple as popping the cover off and adjusting it via the black control box?

    Also I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, is this a know issue with some giottos? I have done a lot of searching but cant come up with much....

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by 02373A3D09153930303333560 link=1330761829/2#2 date=1330769238
    Gday tomb and welcome,

    The definitive answer will be to find a tech with a Scace II who can do an accurate brew temperature check.

    Your pressurestat is as expected and in a machine operating as expected will deliver circa 94 deg. at the puck. You should be able to drink the espresso straight away, so if youre expecting to wait while it cools, you will be disappointed. Cool espresso from freshly roasted beans will deliver sour, watery espresso with pale crema from a good dose and normal pour rate. This is another way of picking a cool shot.

    Turning up the pressurestat is not the answer. Many Australians are accustomed to drinking tea at near boiling, so we need a more definitive test. ;)

    If youre in Melbourne, were happy to run a test and report for you. Quite a few Sydney sponsors also have Scace II devices.
    Thanks for the offer, unfortunately Im in Brisbane so will have to hunt around up here for someone with a Scace.

    I have only been able to pour sour shots for the last 2 weeks and its getting progressively worse. Now it is quite litterlaly impossible to make a bitter shot, I had a play before and pouring 40 ml from a 18gr vst up dosed to 21 grams in 40 seconds is still coming out cold and sour.

    Looks like it will be going back for a service and hopefully determine the root of the problem.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,048

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C57555A380 link=1330761829/3#3 date=1330769479
    Is adjusting the brew temp as simple as popping the cover off and adjusting it via the black control box?

    Also I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, is this a know issue with some giottos? I have done a lot of searching but cant come up with much....
    Unfortunately its not that simple in a HX! There is no thermostat and the control box basically turns element and solenoids on and off in relation to switches. The pressurestat controls the boiler pressure and hence boiler temp. Some nutters (said with admiration!) will be able to calculate specific temps based on that but not me!

    The group temp is related to both HX coil flow, boiler temp and group head thermal mass. The group is related to thermosyphon flow throughout the E61 system, which could be blocked but Im guessing. These are all my own terms put together from reading, so I may be making some experts recoil but the point is there are many things that could be affecting it.

    Dont limit your search to Giottos but look for this issue in E61s. Also how long since it was descaled? Is it on a filter? How long do you leave it till first shot?

    Hopefully that helps a bit but you may have to end up taking it into a good servicer anyway.

    :)

  7. #7
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,081

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A51535C3E0 link=1330761829/3#3 date=1330769479
    Also I would like to get to the bottom of the problem, is this a know issue with some giottos?

    The answer is no. Ive had my Giotto Premium Plus for the best part of 3 years and it has served me flawlessly.

    You say you have had a Giotto for the last 6 months. As it sounds like you bought it new, I assume it is a Premium Plus. The reason you havent read of problems is that it is very good quality machinery. Failures are rare and often due to incorrect operation or maintenance.

    As I said, we dont have enough info to give a qualified response. You didnt explain why the place you bought it from refused to service it.

    As iaindb and Talk Coffee have suggested, it is not a straightforward adjustment and you should have proper measuring equipment to do it properly. If you dont know what you are doing, take it somewhere. We dont know where you bought it but there are sponsors in Qld such as Supreme Roasters or Coffee Roasters Australia.

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Yes it is a premium plus and was purchased new.

    I did not purchase it from a sponsor and wont go into details about the probelms I experienced except to say that it turns out that the people I bought it off are a lot better at being sales men then they are at after sales service / customer contact.

    I had probelms with the machine from the initial bench test, the lever was sticking / catching / grinding during the bench test which I was told wasnt a problem by the people that sold it to me. Had I been more experienced that probably would have set off a red flag with me.

    I usually give the machine 40 mins to 1 hour plus before pulling a shot.

    The machine itself is back flushed at the end of every day without fail and chemical back flushed after every kilo of coffee (approx once a week). I do not have a under sink filter but do use a filter jug, I have read that these may or may not be effective so that could be a cause of scale build but I wouldnt think so after such a short period of time?

    As I said looks like Ill be sending it back to one of the sponsors to get things looked at.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,048

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Yes 6 months is enough for scale to build up in some places but I dont know what Bris water is like.

    Make sure the servicer is willing to show you it working well and not just turn it around. This means they need a bit of coffee making skills as well as maintenance skills

  10. #10
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Playing the devils advocate and not being facetious. Who says there is a problem?

    What if there isnt anything wrong and the owner is under a misunderstanding (often occurs from newcomers reading too much into these internet discussions).

    We havent been told why the service agent dosent want to see the machine again. Perhaps he feels he has spent time looking for something where there isnt anything wrong, and where he cant recoup income for time spent?

    Your only course of action I am afraid is to return to your repairer and ask them to check the machine for the reasons given, and of course ask them to explain to you whatever they do or dont find. If you are nice, there is no reason why they wont be nice back, no?

    In view of the fact there is no indication there really is a problem, it is premature to discuss turning up thermostats or any other kind of intervention. The machine doesnt have a "thermostat" as such, you cannot adjust anything in the black box, and no intervention should be performed by unquailifed persons especially while it is under guarantee as it is the quickest way to render the guarantee null and void.

    Hope that helps.

  11. #11
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Have to admit that I am with Attilio on this one.

    The description of the hot water and steam performance is of a machine operating normally.

    Notwithstanding a production issue where there is a completely blocked thermosyphon due to the fitment of a dud restrictor, the only other possible issue is scale leading to the same outcome. Both of these would be almost immediately evident to a competent tech.

    As previously mentioned, the use of a Scace device would provide clear verification of a good shot temperature and correctly configured machine.

    Lots of old skool places still serve thermonuclear espresso in oven hot cups- neither of which are desirable as an espresso shot should be able to be consumed immediately. It sort of reminds me of the not too distant past:

    "Ill have a _______, and can you make it nice and HOT please"?

    "Well I can make it nice, or I can make it hot. What would you prefer"? :-?

  12. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Robina
    Posts
    21

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Just a comment on water hardness. I am in Ipswich so our water is most likely same as Brisbane. I am not a chemist -not even an apprentice! But I do have access to an instrument that gives some idea of water hardness. I get the following readings: Pure rain water 0, tap water 60ppm, after Britta jug filtering 30ppm. Water from hotwater tap on Giotto 130ppm. This is after about 6 months from new and I do bleed some water from the boiler. I have not yet done a descale. This is just to show how much the hardness can increase by the concentration of chemicals in the boiler through boiling off steam. My understanding is that 0-60 is soft, 61-120 is Moderately hard, 121-180 is hard and above 180 is very hard. I am sure that someone a lot more knowledgeable than me can assist further.
    As to the temp, I can drink (just) a shot from my Rocket PP soon after pouring. And yes I do preheat the grouphandle and the shot glass.
    Caution: I am only new to this coffee game. So treat what I have said with due consideration.
    Regards Noel

  13. #13
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,081

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by 75595F48515D380 link=1330761829/11#11 date=1331172012
    This is just to show how much the hardness can increase by the concentration of chemicals in the boiler through boiling off steam.

    Always try to regularly run off some hot water from the tap to cycle fresher water in the boiler. I try to run at least a cupful every day or 2.

    Once a month, turn off the machine and (carefully) drain as much water from the boiler as possible via the hot water tap. Tilt the machine the right to get more water to drain out.

    Empty the water tank and fill with fresh filtered water, then turn the Giotto on again.

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Robina
    Posts
    21

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Thanks for the tips on draining the tank.

    I was doing the cup every day or so, but not the rest. Will from now on though.

    Noel

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Since were talking about brew temps, my Giotto decided not to heat up last week. A quick resistance check ( yes by a qualified elec) showed the element fine, but control board dead. I had a service agent supply and fit it. The functional check was to electrically check the board was getting power, Check, job done. When hed left, I reassembled the G , carried it into the kitchen and switched her on.

    About five minutes later there is steam belting out from the boiler pressure relief valve, gauge showing in excess of 2 bar. Normally sits around 1.25. Boiler was hot, dam hot. There doesnt seem to be any change if the pressure stat is wound all the way in or all the way out.

    Any suggestions?

  16. #16
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    You have a dead pressurestat Boris. Time for a replacement :(

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    84

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Taking a stab with my limited knowledge, Id say the pressure stat has either been reconnected wrong or has died.

    Best to wait for someone else with more know how to respond though.

    I assume you will try and get the tech back after the holiday, but in the mean time you might need to find another source for your caffeine fix.

    Where do the wires for the pressure stat go on the control box and what brand is it?

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Thanks for the comments gents.

    Talk Coffee, is it likely the initial not heating condition was the pressure stat all along. I guess I can refit the old board to test. Now to get hold of a pressure stat from some where. The one fitted is a Mater C199900294, anyone know if theyre repairable?

    Control box is the Rocket A190004275. The white wire runs to the last pin on the long board side labeled pressure SW. The black runs to the third last on the same side, no label. The replacement box is the same PN though the labels markings are different. The tech did a pin location to location swap. Wiring diagram indicates its correctly wired.

  19. #19
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Hi Jon,

    The current box used is the proelind. Your tech should also have wired the board and your machine to the current standard. If you have black and grey going to the pressurestat, you will in time blow another board- so ask him to complete the work.

    The pressurestat switches at the top of the heat cycle and to put it simply, it tells the board to stop sending power to the element. If its dead, it cannot tell the mahcine to stop heating. Your machine is doing precisely this- so I suspect you will find a dud pressurestat.

    My opinion is that the 2 issues are unrelated.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Thanks Talk Coffee, I just checked the other side of the board, and it has Proelind written on it. Plus a grey wire, not white, its been a long day..

    The pressure stat fitted is a Mater. From the parts breakdown I read C199900294, anyone know if theyre repairable and or where I can get one if the techs here cant get one?

  21. #21
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Coffeeparts do them, but we have found the low end XP110-L prone to failure. Plakky screw at circa $50 =* [smiley=thumbdown.gif].

    Look for the better brass screw version at more like $90. I think the T125 is probably better than the 110 :-/. Any pressurestat will do the job. Sirai, Jaeger even commercial- so long as it will fit.

  22. #22
    Site Sponsor
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Frenchs Forest NSW
    Posts
    751

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Hi Boris,

    We stock the brass screw Mater XP110 in preference to the plastic screw type:

    http://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/s...urestat-xp110/

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Thanks Gents,

    Order placed with JetBlack Espresso, I opted for express post. Hopefully Ill get it Friday.. ;)

    Thanks for your assistance.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Ok so the new brass screw Pressure stat arrived Friday (at the post office). Fitted it this morning, exact same result. Boiler keeps going and going, tank pressure valve starts to bleed off at around 1.7 bar. With the Press stat screw all the way in, or all the way out, no difference. I bleed the tank pressure back down to 0.5 bar before re-testing.

    Any ideas?

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problemsGhost

    Ghosts I tell ya..!!. Refitted the old board, just to rule out gremlins. Wrong, now the boiler heats up, was not expecting that. Pressure is doing its thing, though kind of low. So what do I do now? Ahhhh >:(

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,048

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    I guess its possible - if the pressurestat is wired through the control board - that there is a fault in the board or even in the wiring.

    However:
    Quote Originally Posted by 1D302D362C5F0 link=1330761829/14#14 date=1335263088
    but control board dead. I had a service agent supply and fit it. The functional check was to electrically check the board was getting power, Check, job done. When hed left, I reassembled the G , carried it into the kitchen and switched her on.
    If you paid a service agent, and youre left with a non-functioning machine, then shouldnt the same service agent be called back to fix it? After all, you paid to get it working, so he should deliver it working...

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Take two, the old board is now refusing to heat again, so at least that confirms the old board is dodgy, but the old Pstat was fine. Refitted the new board, heating, but no response by the pstat. Me thinks a dodgy board I got.

    Yes, the service agent is booked to come out again, while I dont have to pay the 187 call out fee, Im still up for the 97 per hour labour, and what really chaps my grits is, I reckon it will be the board, and I know they dont carry them in the service vans, so itll be another week !!

  28. #28
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Yes Boris- normal for a flaky board.

    You now need to adjust the pressurestat to 1.2 bar at top of boiler pressure.

    Owners- some things to keep in mind:
    1- If you repair your own machine, you take on all warranty responsibility.

    2- If you own a Giotto Classic or Premium, check the wiring to the pressurestat and if you see thin black and grey, take your machine to an appropriately qualified tech. and have it rewired to current spec. It will prolong the life of your current board and may well save you a few hundy on a new board at some point in the future. The new wiring protocol is much easier on the control board.

    Dont say you werent warned ;)

    Chris

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Thanks for the heads up Talk Coffee. The wiring in mine looks pretty close to the post 2005 wiring diagram, only grey and black wire to the Pstat. Isnt that something a tech should notice? Why are good tradies so hard to find..

  30. #30
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D607D667C0F0 link=1330761829/28#28 date=1335599404
    Thanks for the heads up Talk Coffee. The wiring in mine looks pretty close to the post 2005 wiring diagram, only grey and black wire to the Pstat. Isnt that something a tech should notice? Why are good tradies so hard to find..
    Yes Boris. If it isnt rewired, you will be back with the same problem. My advice is to ask him to complete the job properly or find someone who can do the work.
    towe0609 likes this.

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Gday Chris,
    Since I had the time , I compared my wiring to the post 2005 diagram found in ECM Giotto Premium - Diagram of machine post. As it matches the diagram, what are the changes that need to be rectified? Is there a diagram of the mod I need?

    regards
    Boris

  32. #32
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Hi Boris- as previously stated, if you see black and grey direct from the control board to the pressurestat, you will need the rewire.

    Chris

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Augustine Heights QLD
    Posts
    302

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    Ok so the same service agent came back and apologised for not performing a complete functional. I did have to point out that even though the board numbers were the same part number, the wiring picture on them was slightly different.

    He then twigged that this new board needed a different wire set up (huzaar ;D) and removed the white and grey wires and replaced with a single black and some other wire location changes.

    Then he checked the Pstat (the old one),panelled up and job done. So in the end, albeit a week longer than it should have been, my world is back to normal.

    .. though Ive just noticed the pressure gauge is no longer rock steady as it was. It reaches the desired setting of 1.25 bar and then starts to slowly drop to 1.0 and then pressures back up again.

    any ideas?

  34. #34
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Rocket Giotto brew temp problems

    All good Boris,

    Its just slight variation between pressurestat styles.

    Time for shots ;)



Similar Threads

  1. Advice needed - Rocket Giotto Brew Lever scraping at Top of Lifted Position
    By sando in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 21st February 2013, 12:33 PM
  2. Giotto Premium Brew Temp Low
    By kcstueber in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 26th January 2010, 01:05 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 8th September 2009, 11:37 PM
  4. Giotto Brew Temp
    By mcknightp in forum Brewing Equipment - Pointy End ($1500-$3000)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 16th June 2008, 02:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •