hey chris, can the thermo thingy be purchased and added to my giotto?
Talk Coffee Giotto Thermostability upgrade
Giotto with thermostability upgrade....Improvements on what is already a great machine! *8-)
Our upgraded Giotto offers better control of group temperature with decreased cooling flush between shots. You will also notice a subtantial increase in steam pressure.
Most e-61 based espresso machines tend to run hot- and the Giotto is a prime candidate for upgrade.
We used a scace device to monitor group temperature across 20 shots. After a long period of experimentation and and 12 months of testing on our Giotto, we offer a set of modifications and a full calibration of your machine to optimise performance. A modified Giotto is more forgiving and performs better than the standard machine. No other Giotto dealer has access to our specific calibration.
As of January 08 we have modified 50 Giottos with 100% customer satisfaction so we have long term experience with upgrades of this nature.
Talk Coffee can retrofit this to any Giotto premium and will this year release a modification set for the Vibiemme Domobar super and Diadema as well.
hey chris, can the thermo thingy be purchased and added to my giotto?
Yes Andrew. PM sentOriginally Posted by mr fox link=1180142910/0#1 date=1180433570
dropped giotto premium to 2mcm 9.30am wed morning for its pimping and picked the beast up later that day...took it home, plugged it in and wailked away...returned about an hour later and lifted the leaver to run the machine and see whats going on, just a gentle stream of hot water...nice, turned the steamed water knob and a nice gentle stream of boiling water, great..
turned the steaming knob and WHOOOOSHHHHHH a great puff of dry steam consistant and the pressure valve not even twitching.....excellent.
anyway the point being that anyone with this machine will know that it runs hot, and without its cooling flush you run the chance of bitter coffee...making two to four coffees a day aint that bad but once freinds come over and your pumping 10 to 20 lattes your thermal stability has to be fairly stable and the machine needs to be quick!...and boy after 2mcms performance enhancement, i think ive got 300 rwkw now! :P
sat night was my sons 2nd bday and i think i pushed 10 lattes in about 15-20 min, the machine was keeping up with the demand with ease now...couple hot chocs too...
so in all the machine is even finer than before and alot quicker...much faster recovery and extremely stable...texturing was a breeze and lightning fast.
thanks in all to 2mcms performance enhancing pimping thingy...and quick turn around...
Id have to kill you if I told you.....oO(secret espresso techs business, a whole heap of experimentation and lots of intellectual property)....We aim to better control the temperatures at group head whilst allowing higher boiler pressure.Hey Chris,
You mind telling what you put in to pimp it? curious:)
The Giotto is a sensational machine out of the box....does it need pimping? No....Does it make a difference? Yes...Small improvements to make the process a tad easier 8-)
What happened with my post? :S >.< Guessed you edited it
Oh and is it possible to do it on other machines?
Sorry CK....I think I may have done that by accident.....At the moment my experimentation and learning is with the giotto....
Its feasible on any HX...its about first learning whats going on and then figuring out how to manipulate it....
if you ever get round to it, just to satisfy the geeks in us all. Id love to see the temp curve on the giotto, before and after the modification. :)
If rule #1- Check the grey before engaging the pearlies
then rule #2- Check the grey before pressing delete :P ;D
Could we hear a little more about the results of the mods on the giotto and if they effect warranty?
No effect on warranty Dennis- after all, Im providing it!
The ECM brains trust are aware that we are making modifications. We provide the warranty on the modifications.
Curves- maybe someday.....
what does 2mcm mean???
An abbreviation of his screen name 2muchcoffeeman
So Chris is this something (either physical or a single licence set of instructions) that can be purchased from you and installed at home, or does it have to come to you?
Well, If Chris would have to kill me if he told me what he put in it then I dont think he would put together an installation which includes instructions and parts :-?Originally Posted by Dennis link=1180142910/0#12 date=1181549384
Dennis- I regret it has to come to me. Its not only bits, there is recalibration too- needing *my pf pressure gauge to check that pump pressure is perfect as well as pressurestat adjustments. For those who need to ship a Giotto, well provide a subsidy for return freight.Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1180142910/0#13 date=1181550126
One possibility is that I could do a few whilst Im in Sydney for Aromafest....
three weeks on and i couldnt be happier...thick, sweet, syrupy coffee and im enjoying short blacks in the morning now, where as before the mod only lattes???.........even my wife swore by the coffee she buys from the cafe next to her work in richmond was the best!..till last week said my lattes were so smooth that she didnt need to add sugar anymore???.....and nothings changed other than the mod from 2mcm....roast 200g in the hottop for 15-18min...grind,distribute and tamp all the same?....
Is the best part of the mod the decreased cooling flush or better steam pressure?
How many seconds does the Giotto need to be flushed on both the standard and modded models.
Hi Scott- I guess the answer is both ;)Originally Posted by scottc link=1180142910/15#17 date=1183768087
Steam pressure is increased a fair amount 1.1 becomes 1.3 bar
Average flush is always dependent on idle time- but Id estimate halved after an hour of idle and only a rinse then between up to about 20 shots..
The most dramatic improvement is in thermostability
I dont have a demo at present. Perhaps an owner may be able to add some specific numbers. Andrew??
prior to the mod i was flushing half to three quarters of a cup of steamy hot water...and thats maybe a hour after machine has been on...when making lattes for a group had to flush in between each coffee, heat up glasses, run coffee, and then texture. By the third set of lattes the machine had not much left to texture milk, so had to slow down for the machine to keep up.Thats when others were finishing their lattes and others were getting theirs...
now just a quick rinse, wipe grind and go...
the other week was just knocking out the pucks, wiping clean , grinding,locking in and ran about 6 lattes in minutes....mind you i always heat the glasses with hot water, and prior to the mod that used to take alot out of the machine...
in numbers think of half the work with half the effort to produce lattes for a group,,,
no flushes just rinse and go...
Well, ive pulled the trigger and ordered a Giotto from Talk Coffee.
Im looking forward to learning all about this beast. :)
The worst part will be waiting for it to arrive.
Originally Posted by scottc link=1180142910/15#20 date=1183971029
Ahh..the wait... Tis bitter-sweet for sure.. :(
Take a long deep breath Scott- we know that there will not be a heap around for Aromafest...
Im hoping end of the month....
Ahh..the wait... Tis bitter-sweet for sure.. :(
What a disaster, looks like that they will not arrive till October possibly even later.
You have to feel for the sponsors, not being able to fill orders for customers.
Chris has got other machines on hand though that are the equal of the Giotto in practically every regard, maybe something else can be worked out.... ;)
Yeah- its beyond frustrating all...
You put your heart and soul into great product and meanwhile Italy refuses to fill orders and then takes a month off....In that timeframe, how many lost sales??? I hope that someone in Italy actually reads this....They had better show me something a whole lot better than simply a suntan and expanded waistline at the end of August >:( NOT HAPPY!
In the meantime VBM have lifted the bar and Id be buying one at the pricepoint of the ECM...Better build, componentry and bang for buck- in addition to terrific espresso and huge steam...There are many other great options. New Unicos with ball-joint wands and all calibrated up are a gorgeous little machine and will be part of our August offer...coming shortly...
Im interested in the pimp mod, anything to boost steam and reduce the spray during the flush. Plus I was hoping you can get hold of an ECM group head seal and steam tip o-ring. Ive replaced the GH seal, but its non genuine hence the PF rotates further round to the 5 oclick position. I would have to ship from ACT, could you let me know what I would be up for please?
Special thanks Chris I am really enjoying the new Giotto & grinder..
Justin (lucky last Giotto from TC)
Great to hear that all is going well Justin! Just wish we could get more of them :(Originally Posted by kingswood link=1180142910/15#28 date=1192958750
I have taken the plunge. I sent the Giotto off on Monday last week and it was back at Fyswick TNT by 10:00am Thursday. My machine is 14 months old, it had always splattered hot water during the cooling flush with pleanty of steam, not any more. And to be honest I had been a little disappointed with its steaming capability, not any more. There seems to be more steam and dare I say there is no need for a cooling flush? I still do it as habit, but now more so to prove the mod was worth the effort. No scalding splatter or steam.
I can honestly say, if it take less than an hour or two to complete the mod, then ECM sould not release their machines until they perform like this. Its almost like they come de-tuned and Chris mod is what the last guy to test it should be looking for to fix up.
He also picked up I had a seized anti vacumm valve. For those who have a 12 months + machine, might be worth checking. But dont ask me, I have no idea how.
Well done Chris.
I have always said that the Giotto is sensational right out of the box....This just makes it a tad better...
Im glad that youre enjoying your "new" Giotto...
Well, after about 11 months of satisfaction with my Giotto Premium, I decided to take advantage of Chriss "pimping upgrade".
Dropped the machine off mid-morning and picked it up mid-afternoon.
First impressions are as others have stated, a dramatic reduction in flush requirements. Where I would have previously flushed 100-150ml of spitting, steaming water before locking and extracting, now the flush is virtually not needed. I find that over the 11 months I have established a routine that is taking some time to re-program, but now just a 20ml flush is ample, in fact zero flush is probably OK, but it is difficult to change the habits!
I find that I am probably using half the water per day, so it is a valuable water saving mod as well!
Steaming appears to be more powerful also, but is also proving difficult to re-establish a new routine. I am tending to get frothy milk at present.
Overall, I feel that the Giotto is certainly improved considerably with these modifications, and I would also like the thank Chris for the high standard of service he provides.
If you happen to own a Giotto, then you will know how good these machines are, and perhaps like me, wonder how they could possibly be improved.
Having now had my own machine pimped by Chris, I am surprised by the fantastic improvement in performance - apart from the descriptions above, its like moving from a stock commodore to a HSV.
If youve been toying with the idea, then do it. If you havent considered it before, you should still do it!
And as usual, unsurpassed five star customer service!
Thanks Chris! I mean that sincerely. [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]
Oh, and Chris...the giotto tells me she preferred the inflight movie on the way down more than the one on the way back ;) ;D
Thanks Dennis! Happy clients make me happy....and as for in-flight movies, your Giotto told me she was conceived in the back of a truck...so I figured shed be comfy there for the ride back to you :POriginally Posted by Dennis link=1180142910/30#33 date=1196237985
Chris, what did you do to my machine?! ;D
Left it on yesterday for 4 hours then went to pour a shot and thought Id run some water through the head - not one hiss or spurt and perfect temp! 8-)
Ever since the pimp all my shots have been sweet, and I think Ive easily saved over a litre of water! :)
Thats what its all about Dennis,
I have been running the same mods on my Veneziano and ran them for 12 months- to ensure that they were the right ones. They do improve an already very good machine. The couple of hours modifying, adjusting and then testing are well worth it IMHO...
Enjoy the godshots! *8-)
I must say I am interested, but cannot commit at the moment. We are 8hrs from Sydney and 4 hrs from Brisbane. There is a good chance we will get to Brisbane in the next week and have a chance of visiting CS sponsors there, but no chance of Melbourne. However, Im quite happy dealing on the Net. So, with our brand new (read expensive) black and white kitchen, with an appliance hutch 355mm high, and as S W M B O has very definite ideas on what is to be allowed, you will understand that I am interested in a Giotto/LaSpaziale Junior combination. I would be most interested in your thoughts on this.
I apologise in advance if this is an unsuitable thread for this message
Hi Richard- I have sent you a PM
Hi Richard,Originally Posted by Gracey link=1180142910/30#39 date=1199876544
I took the plunge and ordered a Giotto and Mini-Mazzer from Chris on NY day, following about a year-and-a-half of indecision. Hes very good with his time and advice and I have no hesitation in dealing with him from Adelaide. The Handbrake was my biggest obstacle, but she eventually came around after she realised she can soon have better-than-cafe coffee on demand. As for storage space, were doing a renovation this year and Ive asked the architect to allow for a coffee nook in the kitchen. In the meantime, Im setting up on the laundry benchtop so I can see what sort of layout Ill need (ie grinder on the left or right, where will the knock-box go, etc.).
Good luck with your pontifications and SWMBO.
Wildcard, Im really looking forward to hearing about how you like playing with these new toys. Is this you when they arrive? [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]took the plunge and ordered a Giotto and Mini-Mazzer from Chris on NY day
Gracey, I cant wait - i just hope it doesnt take me long to get the hang of it.... but it will be fun trying...
Hey Chris,Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee link=1180142910/30#38 date=1199830460
How are the new giottos looking on the bench? Is the modding already done, or still required?
My understanding is that the mod has been available standard from the importer for quite some time. For example, Di Bartoli have them with the mod already done and Im sure that other vendors probably have the modified machine without even knowing it.Originally Posted by ona rampage link=1180142910/30#44 date=1202781491
It would be really interesting to put one of these through its paces with the scace device ... but, ultimately, brew temperature is only part of the picture.
Sorry Luca- Ill need to correct you on that one.Originally Posted by luca link=1180142910/45#45 date=1205453821
There has been no change to Giotto specification in that respect for quite some time and we are continuing to implement the modification set which was the result of our testing- which incidentally did use data from a scace device- gathered quite some time ago. The mod set was then tested on my Veneziano and a Giotto over 12 months before we offered it to retail customers.
Renzo has been offering his own version of the Giotto for the past few weeks now. You would have to talk to him about how he has gathered data on the machine and what modifications are employed on his machines.
Hi Chris & Luca,
First, Di Bartoli would like to thank Chris for the lengthly research and testing of a modified Giotto prior to releasing it to the market.
We believe it was thanks to your findings and Peter Cairis ex ECA whove pioneered the mod and made it possible to implement it locally to improve even further the performance of this greet machine.
Experimenting ourselves for quite some time, weve approached the importer to learn more our possibilities, and with the kind guidance of their chief tech, weve managed successfully to implement it ourselves, on Di Bartoli premesis, with each Giotto received from the importer. We wish to emphasis that this mod DOES NOT come by default from factory, nor is performed in ECAs factory.
It is up to each vendors business strategy, whether to pursue any modification for on any brand / model, a decision not taken lightly, as the mod is time and labor consuming: performing the mod, calibrating and testing the machines performance. Obviously not every business would want to take on that the logistically challenging and costly exercise.
It is businesses like Talk Coffee and Di Bartoli whod seek their customers ultimate satisfaction from both equipment and service aspects, that drives us to initiate innovative adaptation of our products, occasionally without passing the extra cost to end users, simply offering the best product we can, for the best value.
Well said Ofra.
I also thank Peter (who I believe is one of the most talented technical minds in the business in Australia) for planting the seed and getting me started experimenting with Giotto and then helping to run some numbers with my test Veneziano.
Can I emphasise that the Giotto is an excellent machine straight out of the box, but like many other HX machines can need a largish cooling flush. In a commercial environment, load on a machine can keep the group cooler but home machines when left to idle often heat up.
The mod allows for the minimisation of the cooling flush and allows for a little extra boiler pressure as a bonus. This could quite possibly be achieved using a number of strategies and anybody who embarks on this route will make their own decisions as to what is right. A Giotto Classic for example requires a different calibration and does not benefit to the same extent.
I think that there are some other machines which would benefit with a set of modifications as well and will have candidate #2 on the bench soon.
Any indication as to how much they will go up by?
Hi Ona,Originally Posted by ona rampage link=1180142910/45#50 date=1205911020
I am no Nostradamus- but I wouldnt be surprised if they were closer to VBM pricing....
Id recommend that you move relatively quickly as Id expect to see an increase when the next shipment lands... :(.
Can the mod be retrofitted on a Giotto Classic?Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1180142910/0#0 date=1180142909
I have an idea of what its about so the question is - can I purchase the component(s) via your web site?