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Thread: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all
    I noticed on the Talk Coffee website that it has "Coming soon- Vibiemme Domobar Super Lever- dual boiler + PID.".

    I have a PIDd Silvia and I can understand that as the Silvia does not have an E61 group head and the group head is much lighter in weight so it can fluctuate in temperature depending on the state of the boiler. The PID on my Silvia relieves me from having to manually temperature surf.

    A PID on a VBM though would surely not be able to effect the heavy group head in a short time? What sort of improvement is it designed to provide in this case? A PID on a Silvia makes a huge difference but how much difference does a PID make to a high end machine?

    Mike (looking at sponsor sites as upgraditis is upon me)

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike link=1212727884/0#0 date=1212727884
    Hi all
    I noticed on the Talk Coffee website that it has "Coming soon- Vibiemme Domobar Super Lever- dual boiler + PID.".

    I have a PIDd Silvia and I can understand that as the Silvia does not have an E61 group head and the group head is much lighter in weight so it can fluctuate in temperature depending on the state of the boiler. *The PID on my Silvia relieves me from having to manually temperature surf.

    A PID on a VBM though would surely not be able to effect the heavy group head in a short time? What sort of improvement is it designed to provide in this case? A PID on a Silvia makes a huge difference but how much difference does a PID make to a high end machine?

    Mike (looking at sponsor sites as upgraditis is upon me)
    Hi Mike,

    The PID will give temperature control at the group, but as you correctly presume, temperature changes will be slow- due to the thermal mass of the group.

    It will however give a much better level of control than the temperature controller on the Minore II which has more in common with fridge controllers (by being one!).

    Speaking with ECA this week, they have informed me that they hope to air-freight one over for Aromafest and I will be fighting to (with my Talk Coffee hat on) be the bloke who gets to demonstrate it on the day.

    What we do know is this technology wont come cheaply and I think home users nead to really make an informed decision as to whether the complexity and expense of this technology over say a thermostable Giotto is justified *:-?. More complexity ultimately leads to higher long term running expenses so the pertinent question as always is, "Do I really need it"? ;)

    Chris

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Hi Chris

    You seem to have forgotten that he who has the most toys wins

    (pirated from TG in a previous post) ;D

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    ;)

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1212727884/0#1 date=1212738737
    It will however give a much better level of control than the temperature controller on the Minore II which has more in common with fridge controllers (by being one!).

    Speaking with ECA this week, they have informed me that they hope to air-freight one over for Aromafest and I will be fighting to (with my Talk Coffee hat on) be the bloke who gets to demonstrate it on the day.
    Chris,

    If you do get your hands on that DB DS, for Aroma, I might have to fight you for a swap, as Ill be on the Minore II c/w fridge controller :D all day over at DiBarts

    YeeZa

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    It will however give a much better level of control than the temperature controller on the Minore II which has more in common with fridge controllers (by being one!).
    Suggest that instead of making presumptions about what we get at the head based on properties of the controller, we simply grab one of the Scace devices around Melbourne and just check it out. Or we could, you know, just brew some coffee on the thing and see how it tastes - do people do that any more? ;P

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1212727884/0#5 date=1212767160
    Suggest that instead of making presumptions about what we get at the head based on properties of the controller, we simply grab one of the Scace devices around Melbourne and just check it out. *Or we could, you know, just brew some coffee on the thing and see how it tastes - do people do that any more? *;P

    Cheers,

    Luca
    Too right you are Luca,

    The ONLY important factor is whats in the cup and is it repeatable. I think that ECA wil spec. up a formidable machine when we finally get access to it. What Im not so sure about is how many of us actually need one but agree that a new toy is always fun...

    I see a shootout in the future...

    Chris

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    Senior Member tasadam's Avatar
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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1212727884/0#1 date=1212738737
    <snip> so the pertinent question as always is, "Do I really need it"? ;)
    Chris
    Hhmmm need. A good point.
    Like need as in desire?
    Like I dont need a Domobar Super. But I desired it.
    And now I have it. *And I wonder how I put up with what I had prior. Things are THAT much better.
    But need as in a PID for a Domobar? Well I cant comment, really, because I dont have one so dont know what it will really do for me and whether it will change things for me to the extent that I thought I couldnt live without it.
    But having had the Domobar for a few weeks now, I cant imagine what the big deal is with HX machine temp problems.
    Mine runs fine as is, boiler pressure surfs between 0.9 and 1.1 or 1.2, *no more, and if I was offered a PID for my domobar tomorrow for free, I think I would say "No thanks".
    If it aint broke, dont fix it.
    Havent burnt a shot yet, and the cooling flushes arent that big - duration controlled by ear - hissing stops then a bit more - what seems right...
    I hope my perspective helps.


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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Hi all

    The Domobar Super has excellent specs and looks a great machine but its depth from the specs is 57 cm! Thats deep. My bench in the kitchen is 55 cm deep. I think that wipes out this machine for me :-(
    Its a very narrow machine, in fact 4 cm less that the width of my Silvia + PID so I gather that the makers moved something big like a boiler to the back compared to other machines.

    Mike

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    The handle on the drip tray is about 2 centimeters.

    It fits! :D

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1212727884/0#1 date=1212738737
    It will however give a much better level of control than the temperature controller on the Minore II which has more in common with fridge controllers (by being one!).
    The Minore controller is surprisingly effective since the mass of the group seems to even out most of the variation in the boiler. I replaced the controller on mine with a full PID since I like to tinker and it was easy and cheap to do, but I think youd need a Scace device to tell the difference.

    The interesting thing about a PIDed Minore (and presumably the new Domobar) is that unlike a Silvia where the boiler temp drops dramatically as you pull a shot and then you need to wait for it to rebound and settle, the combination of the 1.5l brew boiler and having it filled by the HX means that the brew boiler temp just doesnt move.

    Ill make a string of shots, and use brew water to heat cups and flush water to clean the grouphead and the boiler temp just sits there stable. Presumably if you really pushed it it would wander and need time to settle, but in my home use its very steady.

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark link=1212727884/0#10 date=1213055247
    The Minore controller is surprisingly effective since the mass of the group seems to even out most of the variation in the boiler. I replaced the controller on mine with a full PID since I like to tinker and it was easy and cheap to do, but I think youd need a Scace device to tell the difference.

    The interesting thing about a PIDed Minore (and presumably the new Domobar) is that unlike a Silvia where the boiler temp drops dramatically as you pull a shot and then you need to wait for it to rebound and settle, the combination of the 1.5l brew boiler and having it filled by the HX means that the brew boiler temp just doesnt move.

    Ill make a string of shots, and use brew water to heat cups and flush water to clean the grouphead and the boiler temp just sits there stable. Presumably if you really pushed it it would wander and need time to settle, but in my home use its very steady.
    Great and very valid points Mark...

    I wonder if Jim is reading? Could be a terrific upgrade with a big market if Jim wanted to produce a plug and play kit for the Minore II?

    Chris

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    Senior Member tasadam's Avatar
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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike link=1212727884/0#8 date=1213019840
    Hi all

    The Domobar Super has excellent specs and looks a great machine but its depth from the specs is 57 cm! Thats deep. My bench in the kitchen is 55 cm deep. I think that wipes out this machine for me :-(
    Its a very narrow machine, in fact 4 cm less that the width of my Silvia + PID so I gather that the makers moved something big like a boiler to the back compared to other machines. *

    Mike
    The bench that supports my machine is 53 cm wide.
    See the photos... http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1211499685

    You have got 2 cm extra!


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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Hi
    Ohhhhh I know, I have seen your thread and oogled at it.
    I dont think it will fit. Its nice to have some space at the front to work.
    Still I will be taking my tape measure into Di Bartolis and have a close look and measure :-)
    Mike

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Mike,

    So I may see you soon.

    Regards

    Renzo

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike link=1212727884/0#13 date=1213056782
    Hi
    Ohhhhh I know, I have seen your thread and oogled at it.
    I dont think it will fit. Its nice to have some space at the front to work.
    Still I will be taking my tape measure into Di Bartolis and have a close look and measure :-)
    Mike
    Hi Mike,

    I popped a tape on one for you. 50cm from the back cover to the front of the front leg will do the job. Youll be ok with your 55cm bench, so no need to exclude the VBM 8-)

    Hope that helps ;)

    regards

    Chris

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark link=1212727884/0#10 date=1213055247
    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1212727884/0#1 date=1212738737
    It will however give a much better level of control than the temperature controller on the Minore II which has more in common with fridge controllers (by being one!).
    The Minore controller is surprisingly effective since the mass of the group seems to even out most of the variation in the boiler. I replaced the controller on mine with a full PID since I like to tinker and it was easy and cheap to do, but I think youd need a Scace device to tell the difference.

    The interesting thing about a PIDed Minore (and presumably the new Domobar) is that unlike a Silvia where the boiler temp drops dramatically as you pull a shot and then you need to wait for it to rebound and settle, the combination of the 1.5l brew boiler and having it filled by the HX means that the brew boiler temp just doesnt move.

    Ill make a string of shots, and use brew water to heat cups and flush water to clean the grouphead and the boiler temp just sits there stable. Presumably if you really pushed it it would wander and need time to settle, but in my home use its very steady.
    Seeing as you dont seem to have a scace device, how did you measure the temperature fluctuation to be able to say that it "just sits there, stable" ... or are you saying that the boiler readout just sits on one number?

    The Scace device measurements that I remember showed that the second and third shots on the US equivalent of the machine were one and two degrees hotter than the first, respectively, after which the brew temp stabilised. This is consistent with what people say about e61HXs in general - that they are at their best under a heavy load. Its also consistent with what my friend says about his expobar, which is that it needs a considerable warming flush or a throwaway shot to really get in the zone. Id expect that to be more or less the case with any dual boiler e61 type machine, seeing as the thermosyphon is heated by brew temperature water and there will be a temperature dropoff to the tip of the saucer. Ill post a link when I find the graphs.

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Sorry, Im saying the boiler temp is stable, Im fully aware that the water exiting the brewhead wont have this level of stability, although I do flush water to heat the group prior to making shots.

    This wasnt intended to imply that a PIDed dual boiler E61 could produce a repeatably flat temp profile at the brewhead, it was more a comment that a large PIDed boiler fed from a HX (so you dont get cold water running in to it) was a pretty stable starting point compared to smaller boiler machines like a Silvia. Frankly I think the saturated groups are the only way to go, but since the consumer market seems infatuated with E61s thats not an easy option for the home user.

    In practice I flush by filling the cups Im going to use, you dont need to worry about how much because youre flushing with water at the temperature you want to heat the group to, and since the boiler temp stays nice and constant you can bang out the shots without having to time boiler or HX rebound. Of course Id love to play with a Scace device to really dial in a procedure, but I dont know that my taste buds would pick the difference.

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Hi all
    Well I have learnt something - I had to lookup what a "saturated group head" was.
    Now I know. Apparently its where one uses water to saturate and circulate about the group head to transport the heat there and maintain its temperature instead of relying on the thermal conduction of brass and its mass to maintain temperature stability during a shot.
    Articles about saturated group heads seem to link to lots of articles on PIDing HX machines - the pros and cons.
    Mike

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    What do you guys define a small hx flush to be?

    I have my boiler pressure set to 0.9-1.1 bar. If I flush n go, I pull through about 200ml, if I flush n wait, its more like 400ml.

    I have one of Eric Ss e61 thermometers (From H-B) to base my temps on. The flush n go seems to give a more repeatable result in the cup, but uses more water.

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    What do you try & get the temp to?
    I dont measure my temp, I just do a cooling flush and listen - you can hear it sort of steaming for the first second or four (seems like, but not measured), depending on how long its been sitting. I generally just leave it go for up to a few seconds longer then lock & load.
    These few seconds I do for flushes doesnt "seem" to be that much water, but I havent measured it.
    Like, if it only needed a second or so to stop steaming, I dont need for it to go for another few seconds, but if it took a few seconds to get it to stop steaming, then I might need a bit more beyond that.
    By "steaming", I mean like its coming out as boiling water.
    OK Im about ready for my 2nd cup this morning and the machine has been sitting idle for more than an hour, so stand by...

    On this line, I do have one question - should I be doing cooling flushes through the PF to cool it as well, before I load my grinds into the basket? Or is it that if the PF is a bit hot, it wont matter that much as by the time the grinds go in, no damage to them (and the resultant taste) will be done?
    Or is this all a bit too pedantic, and "if it tastes good just keep doing it the way I am"?

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    Senior Member tasadam's Avatar
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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    OK Well I just did a 20 second cooling flush into a measuring container and ended up with half a cup - about 125ml.
    If you are doing flushes of about 400ml to stabilize your thermometer, my advice would be to throw the thermometer away and go by sound and more importantly, taste.
    That sounds to me like WAY too much water for any kind of cooling flush.
    I suspect the anomolies you are getting is because of the thermometer setup, and your possible regime of trying to let the thermometer tell you whats going on. Cover it up with a bit of electrical tape for a few days and see how the coffee tastes with minimal flushing.

    But I am fairly new with machine, I still think I see no need to flush that much water through.


    EDIT. BTW I have never done a cooling flush of 20 seconds before. Its always way under half that.

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by tasadam link=1212727884/15#21 date=1213139573
    OK Well I just did a 20 second cooling flush into a measuring container and ended up with half a cup - about 125ml.
    If you are doing flushes of about 400ml to stabilize your thermometer, my advice would be to throw the thermometer away and go by sound and more importantly, taste.
    That sounds to me like WAY too much water for any kind of cooling flush.
    I suspect the anomolies you are getting is because of the thermometer setup, and your possible regime of trying to let the thermometer tell you whats going on. Cover it up with a bit of electrical tape for a few days and see how the coffee tastes with minimal flushing.

    But I am fairly new with machine, I still think I see no need to flush that much water through.


    EDIT. BTW I have never done a cooling flush of 20 seconds before. Its always way under half that.
    Weird. I only have to flush for about 20s to get my 400ml. And I cant see or hear any steam coming from my grouphead, even after its been idling all night. And Im not throwing away my thermometer, because its a good guide - its accurate and also calibrated regularly. And most importantly, I do go by taste.

    I know from comparing graphs of the temperature taken at the group access (as I do) and taken with a Scace device, there is a difference of a couple degrees (the group access reads warmer). Either way, regardless of how much you flush or dont flush, if I do a 1 or 2 shot flush as many claim is plenty, the result isnt quite undrinkable (afterall, the estimated brew temp is roughly 97C), but its certainly hotter and more bitter than I like it. To each their own, I say.

    Sam

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    Senior Member tasadam's Avatar
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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by Sammus link=1212727884/15#22 date=1213169508
    Weird. I only have to flush for about 20s to get my 400ml.
    This seems to be the biggest difference.
    My only advice would be to encourage you to either talk to where you got the machine from to see if it is normal for 400ml from 20 seconds, or ask other users how they go to see whether that is an issue / problem.
    Only way I can get anything near that much water in 20 seconds is through the hot water outlet tap. You do your cooling flushes through the group, dont you? *;) :)

    I dont know actual volumes thru the hot water tap, will check some time.
    And I was jesting about the thermometer throw... but am surprised you cannot hear the steam at all.

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1212727884/0#11 date=1213055812
    I wonder if Jim is reading? Could be a terrific upgrade with a big market if Jim wanted to produce a plug and play kit for the Minore II?
    Might be a fun project. Now, if I could just get someone to ship me a machine for prototyping...

    The temp stability reported by Mark is really encouraging. I have seen similar behavior on other single boiler machines in the class of the Isomac Zaffiro, QM Alexia, VBM Levetta, etc. The small variation in boiler temp during, and after, a shot seems to be closely related to the larger volume of the boiler.

    Jim

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    Re: Vibiemme Domobar + PID

    Quote Originally Posted by tasadam link=1212727884/15#23 date=1213187031
    Quote Originally Posted by Sammus link=1212727884/15#22 date=1213169508
    Weird. I only have to flush for about 20s to get my 400ml.
    This seems to be the biggest difference.
    My only advice would be to encourage you to either talk to where you got the machine from to see if it is normal for 400ml from 20 seconds, or ask other users how they go to see whether that is an issue / problem.
    Only way I can get anything near that much water in 20 seconds is through the hot water outlet tap. You do your cooling flushes through the group, dont you? ;) :)

    I dont know actual volumes thru the hot water tap, will check some time.
    And I was jesting about the thermometer throw... but am surprised you cannot hear the steam at all.

    I had a laugh alright, I guess time flies when your flushing. What seemed like 20s is actually a bit longer I just did a 20s flush and recorded 150ml.

    I would love to get my hands on a Scace to see whats going on from the coffees POV...



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