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Thread: VBM - quality not quite there

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    VBM - quality not quite there

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Let me preface this by saying that I am very happy with the quality of the shots, the frothing ability and the overall ease of use of my VBM Domobar Super. But ... there are still some little quirks that I would not expect from a machine that costs ~$2500:

    1. Vibration on the cup tray - Ive seen someone on here use the wooden clothes peg fix to alleviate this.
    2. Sharp edges on the cup tray scratches the insides of the machine when removing.
    3. Brew pressure screw is mis-alligned with the gap in the case making it difficult to adjust the brew pressure with a screwdriver.
    4. The handle in the drip tray leaks through the handle fasteners. The fix for this is to add a washer.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    These "issues" are well known VBM quirks and have been discussed elsewhere,

    The VBM represents brilliant value for money at the price and the difficulties are easily overcome. In comparison, a GS3 is almost perfect and is also $6.5k...I reckon you have done ok. What can it put in the cup?

    Like most other machines, VBM are hand made and subject to small variations. I consider these variations to be optional extras which are not charged for. In addition, about 2 minutes of your time will overcome the majority of these issues.

    Keep in mind that your supplier should have adjusted the OPV using a portafilter pressure gauge for you and as such, you shouldnt need to be inside the machine anyway as you probably dont have the equipment required to accurately gauge the effect of any adjustments :-?

    Most espresso machine importers will be reluctant to provide warranty on machines which are user modified/damaged.

    Chris

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there


    All I have to say about this subject is that a seller of a product should do a pre delivery check

    If a problem is common or known to both maker and seller it should be repaired before delivery or handover to the buyer
    This repair should be then charged under warranty to the manufacturer and classified as a manufacturing defect especially sharp panels and leaking drip tray handles
    As for the leaking drip tray handle

    Would I be wrong to say that the reason the factory wont put 2 washers in the handle is because
    1) It is too hard
    2) It costs a prohibitive amount and costs would blow out

    I hear you say none of the above
    hmmm well I am at a loss about this one

    I should send an invoice to VBM because I hand made some leather washers and sent them to a fellow coffee snob to fix his leaking VBM handle

    The question and concerns about build quality that CS Member Garbage has posted is a valid one and known faults should have been addressed before he got the machine
    Remember sharp panels donít discriminate who they cut owner or repairman

    KK




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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    KK, are you familiar with the VBM?

    The ones I have at the roastery DO have spring washers, and although I wouldnt expect these to be watertight, others have mentioned that they have resolved the issue by tightening the nuts. The VBMs drip tray is quite deep and large. If waste water ever gets to the level of the screws, then its already overdue for an empty and clean IMHO.

    As for the sharp panels I agree the finish could always be better. I also have to say that unless you were to run your hand lengthways along an edge, Ill be damned if I know how you would manage to cut yourself. Then again, people manage to do exactly this with a sheet of paper.

    As for access to the OVP, while its not aligned, if you know what youre doing, its actually very simple to make any adjustments. I find it more than a bit surprising when people have spent so much on a coffee machine, and then want to take a screw driver to it at the first chance they get. Kind of like spending an equivalent amount on a car, then deciding to modify and service it myself when Im not a mechanic.

    Im sure I can find fault with any machine. I know that Chris and I continuously encourage people to visit, and compare any equipment side-by-side so that they can make their own assessment. As well as the positives, I also know that we purposely point out everything that might be considered to be a negative, so that a customer can make an informed choice.

    Oh, and if youre ever thinking of buying a GS3, remove the drip tray and check out the framework - its far from perfect. ;)

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    My drip tray did not exhibit any leaking. There is no reason to ever remove the two bolts holding the drip tray handle, so an easy fix would be to use a dab of sealant in the hole, or between the two panels before assembly (RTV?). While on the subject of the drip tray, when it is empty, the vibrations from the pump cause it to walk out of the machine a short distance when running. I need to add some friction to the base where the tray sits.

    The sharp panels are (were?) a hit and miss thing. Some users have reported no such problems, but mine was like an old computer case. I had to hone the edges of the drip tray as well as the inner divider panel. I was replacing the OPV spring and was wondering what all the red markings were on the inner panel when I realized they were coming from me.. I used a diamond stone and rounded over all the edgesó something that should have been addressed at the factory. These were not just a little sharp, but had the micro-serrations that go through flesh like a razor blade.

    I also complained about the water that would run down the face of the machine and get under the drip tray. That has been addressed with a re-formed front panel with an angular flare of the bottom of the face to redirect the water.

    I finally addessed the case vibration problems with the addition of velcro as I described and illustrated here:
    http://www.home-barista.com/forums/taming-vbms-vibrations-t8132.html
    I finally find the source of about 85% of the noise the machine makes and this simple solution did the trick.

    The location of the OPV is a minor problem but one that should have been done differently. The adjustment should have been accessible under the drip tray, the same as the pressurestat access. Alternatively, there should have been a separate access opening instead of sharing the one for the reservoir level switch.

    And as far as taking a screwdriver to the machine first thing, mine came with the out-of-spec OPV spring causing the pressure to be all over the place. I had to change it. just recently I had to readjust it again as it changed. it had held for about a year, then one day dropped about .4 BAR. I readjusted it and now it is fine again.

    Not long after I got my machine I also had a water line pop off under pump pressure because the tie wrap holding it was not tight enough.

    A slot cut in the side of the case to allow viewing of the reservoir with maybe an LED lamp under the reservoir so that the user could see the water level without having to remove the cup warming tray would be very nice. It would be a lot more pleasant than being in the middle of a pull an having the machine shut down.

    BUT.... the other side of this is... with quality beans, a quality grinder, and a barrista who has some skills, knowledge, and experience, this thing is capable of producing amazing espresso, pull after pull, day after day. The difference in the quality of espresso and the consistency of same when compared to a PIDd Silvia is to be experienced to be believed. Using my home roast and blend, I recently went seven consecutive weeks, at least two doubles a day, without a bad pull, and it was that mysterious change in OPV setting that ended that string.

    The things that count (pressurestat, boiler, brewhead, pump, etc.) and top tier in this machine. It is easy to work on and there is a tn of room around the internal components which allow better air circulation and makes it easier for cleaning chores around the boiler, watching for leaks, etc. quite easy. This also helps extend the life of electronic components. The brewhead is probably the best E-61 availableó it should be because VBM holds the patent. The use of socket head screws on the mushroom access cover as well as on the cam cover make access to the brewhead components very simple.

    So, sure, I wish they would have paid a bit more attention to some of the design and manufacturing details, but this is one tough machine, made to last, and it makes GREAT espresso, and as far as I can see, will continue to do so for a long, long time in my house.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by cuppacoffee link=1225344730/0#3 date=1225373491
    Oh, and if youre ever thinking of buying a GS3, remove the drip tray and check out the framework - its far from perfect. ;)
    Yeah Ive seen some shockers with this in regards to the drip tray corners of the frame. Although it wouldnt stop me from accepting one should it be donated to me for testing pruposes ;)

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Like Chris said, there is no perfect machine. Any purchase you make is going to be a compromise with factors such as performance/build quality/price being the most common that people talk about. A GS3 is great value for money if you have plenty of spare cash and a Presso is great value for money if you are a struggling student.

    Remember a few years ago when the Rancillio Silvia was so hyped on internet forum sites that there were 4 month plus waiting lists for one. Not that long ago (before manufacturing issues) the ECM Giotto had massive back-orders because of, once again, internet forum hype. As Luca has been saying a lot lately many users have opinions that are created by other opinions and have never even seen the machines they type about. I guess that is one of the downfalls of accessible information. Wasnt the quote something like "the internet has so far proven that a million monkeys with a million typewriters can recreate the works of Shakespeare" *

    At the end of the day there are many options for machines in a large variety of price/quality brackets. Some represent better value than others, but all are only one part of the equation required to make great coffee at home. *

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Id be thoroughly accepting if these design oversights were present on a $500 Gaggia or Nemox, but for a machine that costs 5 times that amount, my expectations are much higher. Kind of like a Toyota vs Lexus quality/engineering comparison.

    Chris, youre 100% right that the necessary pre-delivery checks werent done in the case of my machine as the brew pressure was set at the factory default. I had even asked the retailer to ensure the brew pressure setting was correct, and he assured me that itll be set correctly from the factory, which it wasnt.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    I will assume that your use of the word hype follows the following definition:

    1 : put on , deceive
    2 : to promote or publicize extravagantly

    Remember a few years ago when the Rancillio Silvia was so hyped on internet forum sites that there were 4 month plus waiting lists for one.
    hyped? it has a proven track record of being well built, dependable, and capable of making excellent espresso. Wheres the hype?

    Not that long ago (before manufacturing issues) the ECM Giotto had massive back-orders because of, once again, internet forum hype.
    back in those days, when it was still an Italian company making the machine in Italy, it was an excellent machine. Again, wheres the hype?

    As Luca has been saying a lot lately many users have opinions that are created by other opinions and have never even seen the machines they type about. I guess that is one of the downfalls of accessible information. Wasnt the quote something like "the internet has so far proven that a million monkeys with a million typewriters can recreate the works of Shakespeare" *
    Many buyers have to form opinions based on the opinions of others because few have the opportunity to even touch let alone use most machines before purchase. I would have had to take a 3 hour round-trip drive to see anything above a Krups. A downfall of accessible information is only created by people unintelligent enough to take the time to read numerous views and see the truth as it applies to their own situation.


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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    The main reason I have made it a point to claim a warranty service charge to the manufacturer is that sometimes only the hip pocket can make them review a production line change in procedure.

    The VBM is a good machine it makes coffee very well (I have no dispute)

    The big picture view of this is always the coffee making process

    But itís the small things that make it a ďgreat machine not just a good oneĒ

    The complaints made by owners are not really that hard and probably cost neutral to fix on the production line

    This is a true story
    One example to a similar quirk to the VBM rattle is from a colleague

    A new car was purchased and loved for all of the good things
    However a persistent rattle in the dash that could not be found or fixed turned him off the new car

    6 months new ;) he sold/traded that car in and got another make

    So what is the moral to all of this?
    "Small things are more important that most people realize"

    KK

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Yes KK,

    One might suggest similar things about any machine though.

    If you take your machine and try to set the OPV to 9 bar you:
    [*]Need to be a 3 handed dwarf rubber man to remove it[*]Need to accept that there will be profanity and most likely blood as well[*]Need to break the locktite seal on the OPV which sets the pressure to more like 12 bar[*]Employ more profanity and the small bloke to get it back again (more blood ::))[*]Get rewarded with the 9 bar scream when all is back together and working as it should...

    All in all, probably a good 30 min to do a job which takes a minute in a VBM...

    Does mean that the Galatea is no good :-? Absolutely not....Its a great machine and works really well as you well know. Its louder than most of the others too...Could something be done about it? Probably...Does it really matter? Nup...

    EVERY machine is a box of compromise. One sharp edge is not the end of the world...

    Chris


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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    I donít believe that adjusting the OPV does anything except force the user to adjust grind size and tamp pressure to compensate for the difference

    However I have read on another forum that the Bezzera Galatea OPV is not made to adjust thatís why it is sealed with locktite and that it has a service life of over 10 years
    But I will check this out to be sure this info is correct?

    KK

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1225344730/0#12 date=1225458017
    I donít believe that adjusting the OPV does anything except force the user to adjust grind size and tamp pressure to compensate for the difference
    Too high a Brew Pressure has a huge impact on the quality of the coffee in the cup KK. With all else being close to the money, it will tend to over-extract the coffee regardless of how well you believe you are controlling the shot with adjustments to grind and tamping force. This results in bitter coffee which has an almost burnt edge to it and a lessening of the volume of crema.

    If your Bezz hasnt been checked for correct Brew Pressure yet, I would ask the guys at Barazi to put it on the bench and set it up with a Pressure PF. You will definitely notice the change in shot quality afterwards; they will be much sweeter, more body and more crema. Highly recommended KK.... :)

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1225344730/0#12 date=1225458017
    I donít believe that adjusting the OPV does anything except force the user to adjust grind size and tamp pressure to compensate for the difference....
    What about if the brew pressure is too low? This would force the user to adjust their grind to a more coarse setting to compensate, leading to under-extraction.

    Try this: With your machine working at about 9BAR, and the grinder set properly, set the OPV to 11 BAR and pull a shot with the same grind and see what happens. I theorize that the flow rate will be increased, with a proportionately increased chance of channeling. So you will need a finer grind and thus take the chance of over-extraction.

    if nothing else, it is easier on the pump if it doesnt have to work any harder than necessary.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1225344730/0#11 date=1225458017
    I donít believe that adjusting the OPV does anything except force the user to adjust grind size and tamp pressure to compensate for the difference

    However I have read on another forum that the Bezzera Galatea OPV is not made to adjust thatís why it is sealed with locktite and that it has a service life of over 10 years
    But I will check this out to be sure this info is correct?

    KK
    Hi KK,

    I reckon thats a cop out....An OPV is essentially a spring and they should all be adjustable.

    Prior to having the opv return to the tank, Galatea OPF relief water ended up in the drip tray- up to 150ml per shot. These days it is (correctly) routed back into the tank. There is no reason whatsoever to ship these machines with the OPV set closer to 12 bar and in fact, I reckon its pretty pig-headed to dictate to the market against all the research, wisdom and experience that has proven that circa 9 bar is optimum.

    To lock it down with locktite is laughable- so regardless, it gets set correctly on every machine I see- unless the client requests for it not to be. Springs can be more gently or heavily compressed. Theyre still springs!

    The writing is on the wall IMHO to get it right and to remove the head from the sand.

    I really like the machine and set correctly, its terrific. I dont like it at all at 12 bar and every time I open one up to do this job, it really irritates me that the OPV is so poorly located in contrast to the wisdom of a myriad of other manufacturers. Even Rancilio saw the light with Silvia. The proof is in the cup.

    Its time for a change ;)

    Chris

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Itís the engineering skeptic in me that questions that wisdom

    The main problem that I have is the spring itself or to put it in another way, the springs resistance value
    The spring can control the speed of release depending on its tensile strength from fast to slow however that said it is a soft release

    If one sets the OPV at 9 bar you are telling the OPV to release at that value
    Looking at it another way? It will release pressure at the most crucial time. The optimum brew setting?

    So the users changes the grind size and tamp strength to compensate and ensure the OPV valve does not trip and release as set pressure is reached continuously

    The question remains what is the actual pressure after user compensation?
    It surmise that it is under 9 bar more likely 7 or 8 bar

    Ideally you donít want the OPV to trip at all
    If it is set just above at the ideal bar level the actual brew pressure will be aprox 1 to 2 bars below.

    KK

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Except vibe pumps have a running pressure of around 12 - 15 bar (depending on whether it is ulka or fluidotech). I spose the the theory of the OPV is to bleed off (albeit rather crudely) the excess pressure so as to achieve a relative constant pressure down stream of the OPV.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Depending on machine and pump combo you may have one or two pressure relief valves (OPVs). They are a standard item in industrial fluid or air control systems but there is some variations but they are simple and do a good job of maintaining pressure.

    All they are is a valve stem and an adjustable spring holding the valve closed when the down stream pressure is above the spring tension the valve cracks and some fluid is allowed to flow to waste when the pressure then matches the valve shuts again and this cycle continues as required.

    Providing the pump can maintain adequete flow for both the shot and waste requirements then the set outlet pressure can be maintained at the puck (assuming grind and tamp are correct) and it doesnt matter if the valve is open or shut you will still have pressure X at the showerhead. In an ideal world the back pressure from the puck would keep the valve shut and at 9 bar but you are never going to be able to creat a 9 bar puck with any regularity.

    In addition to this some rotary pumps have a PRV fitted with the same type of valve but instead of dumping to waste they recirculate the waste water internally to maintain a constant pressure downstream. Playing with these is a different matter as it depends on pump inlet pressure to set these.

    With PRV springs over time will develop a different set and require adjustment and in the long term generally need replacing (10+ years in most cases). The valve faces may need reseating prior to that or even the valve stems may wear out and cause the valve to stick.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    maybe im mistaken :), but the pump pressure remains constant at about 4-5 bars, and the OPV responds to the resistance created BY the puck. so if an OPV is set at 12 bars, essentially it is being told to keep the resistance pressure from the coffee puck at 12 bars.
    My point is that the 9 bar OPV, is ensuring that the pressure AT the puck (ie the brewing pressure) IS 9 bars.

    the real question is..... if commercial coffee machines are factory set at 9 bars, why are the home/ prosumer machines OPVs set at 12?

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    HI Soupy,

    the pump is a constant VOLUME (varies slightly with pressure in the case of these types) and pressure is created by restricting the flow either by using a valve or puck pressure.

    Pump pressure will need to be slightly higher than 9 bar to get to 9 bar at the screen due to other system losses. The OPV or PRV does not create pressure magically at the screen ;) In the case of a plumbed in model inlet pressure from the mains + pump pressure is the total pressure supplied to the system so the pump may only be adding 5 or 6 bar depending on setup.

    Setting the PRV at 12 bar is fine providing you can create a puck that will cause a 9 bar brew pressure as the machine will still brew at 9 bar even with a valve set to 12. As this is not repeatable or consistant the OPV takes care of that variable so even if you grind really fine and tamp heavilly there is still only X pressure across the puck. This is why the valves are best set at 9 bar.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Taking into account everything that has been explained above, the important criterion is that where so-called "Vibe Pumps" are being used, the OPV pressure is adjusted to operate at between 8.5-9 Bar when there is a flow-rate through the Group of 120ml/Minute. This is a very specific adjustment and takes into account any variables that exist from one machine to another. This does not apply to machines employing Eccentric Vane or so-called Rotary Pumps.

    Adjusting the OPV on its own without taking into account the above flow-rate, is a pointless exercise and the reason that Chris and other coffee specialist professionals employ special tools and aids such as the "Scace Device".

    Cheers,
    Mal.


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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Can someone have a look at this photo and tell me whether this is the wrong coloured light bulb behind the light?


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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    The bulb is orange, though Im colour blind. *Doesnt really matter what colour it is though does it?

    The stainless in your photo looks coffee-coloured. *Id be more concerned about that. :P ;D

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1225344730/20#22 date=1225837929
    The bulb is orange, though Im colour blind. *Doesnt really matter what colour it is though does it?

    The stainless in your photo looks coffee-coloured. *Id be more concerned about that. *:P *;D
    Looking at your tagline you say you like shiny colourful objects - coffee is a nice colour! ;D

    PS Im guessing it might be just the normal orange cast that incandescent lighting can throw.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Looks as though the stainless steel is reflecting the light brown colour of my kitchen cupboards.

    So do all Domobar Super machines have a green coloured light with an orange coloured bulb? Or was my machine assembled on a late Friday afternoon just before a big Italian football match?

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by garbage link=1225344730/20#24 date=1225848672

    So do all Domobar Super machines have a green coloured [s]light [/s] lens with an orange coloured bulb?
    Yep...its magic!

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    You would think a machine in this price range would at least have a lens that matched the colour of the light bulb!

  28. #28
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by garbage link=1225344730/20#26 date=1225852513
    You would think a machine in this price range would at least have a lens that matched the colour of the light bulb!
    And if it were the same colour then you could complain that its too hard to discern whether its on or off. Price of the machine has absolutely nothing to do with the choice of colours.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by garbage link=1225344730/20#26 date=1225852513
    You would think a machine in this price range would at least have a lens that matched the colour of the light bulb!
    If that is the biggest problem youve found with the machine, consider yourself lucky! *::) If the coffee is good then thats all that really matters! Bulb colour is rather superficial...

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1225344730/20#27 date=1225852759

    And if it were the same colour then you could complain that its too hard to discern whether its on or off. *Price of the machine has absolutely nothing to do with the choice of colours.
    The orange lens/globe on the left hand side of the machine is easily discernible. Surely they could have done the same on the right hand side, but in a green lens and globe. Coupled with all the other points I raised in the original post, its a lack of attention to detail in my books, something that should not be happening on a machine that costs 5-10 times that of an entry level machine.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by NE14COFFEE link=1225344730/20#28 date=1225853354
    Quote Originally Posted by garbage link=1225344730/20#26 date=1225852513
    You would think a machine in this price range would at least have a lens that matched the colour of the light bulb!
    If that is the biggest problem youve found with the machine, consider yourself lucky! *::) If the coffee is good then thats all that really matters!
    Dont get me wrong - no qualms about the coffee whatsoever. Its just that there are far too many design oversights (razor edges, vibrations/noise, brew pressure screw alignment, drip tray leaks) and poor quality control (wrong lens/globe colour) for a machine of this price.

  32. #32
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    garbage, with your particular style of attention to detail I would have thought you would have spent more time looking for these "faults" before you decided to purchase. Keep looking though...Im sure youll find more faults with it.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Seeing as its a big heavy box of oversights and design faults, Ill give you $500 for it....

    Sounds like you will be glad to be rid of it....

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Put it this way. If you spent $125k on a Mercedes, would you be happy to live with a design oversight such as water leaking into the boot? Or a reversing light that was creamy coloured on one side and white on the other? How about razor sharp edges under the bonnet? Or a rattle in the glove box?

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by garbage link=1225344730/20#33 date=1225857688
    Put it this way. *If you spent $125k on a Mercedes, would you be happy to live with a design oversight such as water leaking into the boot? *Or a reversing light that was creamy coloured on one side and white on the other? *How about razor sharp edges under the bonnet? *Or a rattle in the glove box?
    Hi Garbage,

    If we apply that logic, you would have purchased a Synesso at more like $8.5k...and it would have imperfections as well.

    These are hand made machines and subject to some variation....

    Maybe its time to pull some shots rather than looking at it to see what else you can find "wrong" :-?

    2mcm

  36. #36
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    garbage, having a different coloured lens or light is not, I repeat, not, a design fault and not an oversight. *For whatever reason, VBM choose to build the machines this way. *I would expect that it actually requires more care to get the lenses and lights in the right order than it would if they were all the same colour. *I dont think it would matter what colour they chose, youd find something wrong with it. *

    Like your example of purchasing a car, if the manufacturer chooses to use polka dot coloured lenses and you dont like it, you either live with it or get a different car. *If these machines were as faulty as you suggest, people simply wouldnt buy them...which is far from the case.

    I dont wish to offend, but cant help thinking that you may only be happy when you are unhappy. *Some people see the glass half full, others see it half empty. *Yours seems completely empty at the moment. *Why not try topping it up with an espresso from your machine and enjoy what it has to offer.

    Im moving on....I hope you do too.

  37. #37
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1225344730/20#35 date=1225861219
    Some people see the glass half full, others see it half empty.
    Dont forget the third possibility, which seems appropriate in this case..."the glass is the wrong size".

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1225344730/20#34 date=1225859258
    These are hand made machines and subject to some variation....
    Im sorry, but "hand made variations" dont excuse the sharp edges, poorly aligned brew pressure screw and leaking drip trays. *I am surprised you dont have higher expectations of a machine that costs $2500.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1225344730/20#34 date=1225859258
    Maybe its time to pull some shots rather than looking at it to see what else you can find "wrong" *:-?
    As Ive said, Im very happy with the shots it makes. *I just would have expected Vibiemme to cross the Ts and dot the Is a bit better considering the price of the thing.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    I thought hand made meant

    "Superior make and rigorous inspections"
    "No small Detail Overlooked"

    KK

  40. #40
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1225344730/20#38 date=1225867446
    I thought hand made meant

    "Superior make and rigorous inspections"
    "No small Detail Overlooked"

    KK

    Bzzz - wrong again. Hand made means hand made. :P


  41. #41
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1225344730/20#27 date=1225852759
    And if it were the same colour then you could complain that its too hard to discern whether its on or off. Price of the machine has absolutely nothing to do with the choice of colours.
    Dennis has hit the nail on the head.... This is very common practice where status indication lighting clusters are used. Makes for a very definite and obvious "state change" indication and avoids the prospect of confusion. Dont know how important this is with an espresso machine but the practice is close to being standard where complex control panels are involved.

    Mal.

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Im really really happy with my VBM. I have no leaks from the drip tray whatsoever, never cut myself, my drip tray only vibrates when Ive had the full cover off and screwed it up too tight - just loosen the screws a smidge and alls well. My lenses (Id never looked at them quite this way before) are clear.

    I do acknowledge the brew pressure opening wasnt thought through, and Im sure theyll work on that. Its a bit too fundamental to miss on the next upgrade. But hey, Ive only needed to adjust it on one day to get it in the ball park, and two flathead screwdrivers side-by-side worked just fine. And I certainly aint a mechanic.

    Mine looks well-finished under the hood as well as on the outside.

    I have great stability of temperature through the grouphead, and it makes great coffee. Im happy. No regrets.

  43. #43
    TC
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Intellidepth link=1225344730/40#41 date=1225916044
    Im really really happy with my VBM. I have no leaks from the drip tray whatsoever, never cut myself, my drip tray only vibrates when Ive had the full cover off and screwed it up too tight - just loosen the screws a smidge and alls well. My lenses (Id never looked at them quite this way before) are clear.

    I do acknowledge the brew pressure opening wasnt thought through, and Im sure theyll work on that. Its a bit too fundamental to miss on the next upgrade. But hey, Ive only needed to adjust it on one day to get it in the ball park, and two flathead screwdrivers side-by-side worked just fine. And I certainly aint a mechanic.

    Mine looks well-finished under the hood as well as on the outside.

    I have great stability of temperature through the grouphead, and it makes great coffee. Im happy. No regrets.
    Agreed Intellidepth,

    I get to look under the hood of quite a few machines and the internal build of the VBM is a great example of terrific- shrouded switches, wiring well tied back, boiler well supported, great internal architecture etc...There are many other good brands and some shockers as well.

    Given that there should be no need for an end user to be poking around inside a machine- as there should be a full bench test to check that everything is in order, the only person at risk of a cut from a sharp edge would be a techie *:-?. I suspect that cuts are possible once you start fiddling around in the recesses of a Merc or Ferrari as well.

    For mine, tinkerers shouldnt be surprised if/when they break something and get a refusal on warranty service.

    One example that comes to mind with VBM owners is that the system pressure gauge will not read much more than 2 bar without a loaded p/f or blind filter locked in and the pump operating. You cant pressurise nothing...and yet the number of calls I get ::). These owners have often taken it upon themselves to screw the OPV all the way in...and yet still get less than 9 bar....

    Next, a broken pump or pump solenoid? Whos responsible??

    The lesson is choose a good operation which cares about what they sell...You choose a dodgy cowboy and you will most likely purchase a box as it left the factory which simply screwed the components together and that was it. It might cost you a few bucks more, but you will get a correctly set up machine as well as peace of mind.

    Chris

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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1225344730/0#11 date=1225458017
    I donít believe that adjusting the OPV does anything except force the user to adjust grind size and tamp pressure to compensate for the difference

    However I have read on another forum that the Bezzera Galatea OPV is not made to adjust thatís why it is sealed with locktite and that it has a service life of over 10 years
    But I will check this out to be sure this info is correct?

    KK
    Ive read this in other forum. Maybe it was same that you read.

    "I believe the Bezzera Galatea Domus hydraulic system is somewhat unique. [...] The Ulka E4 pump may be "driven" to a ~ 12 bar discharge pressure because of the check valve shown in the pdf that Jeff S. referenced. But ~12 bar at the OPV valve (suppresion valve in Bezzeras lingo) probably translates into ~ 9 bar at the puck. In any event, I would not go about adjusting any OPV until YOU know what YOU have AT THE GROUP with the flow through the group that YOU desire."

    So its possible that bezzera 12bar setting its the optimum setting for its machine? *:-?

  45. #45
    TC
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by oton link=1225344730/40#43 date=1226534874
    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1225344730/0#11 date=1225458017
    I donít believe that adjusting the OPV does anything except force the user to adjust grind size and tamp pressure to compensate for the difference

    However I have read on another forum that the Bezzera Galatea OPV is not made to adjust thatís why it is sealed with locktite and that it has a service life of over 10 years
    But I will check this out to be sure this info is correct?

    KK
    Ive read this in other forum. Maybe it was same that you read.

    "I believe the Bezzera Galatea Domus hydraulic system is somewhat unique. [...] The Ulka E4 pump may be "driven" to a ~ 12 bar discharge pressure because of the check valve shown in the pdf that Jeff S. referenced. But ~12 bar at the OPV valve (suppresion valve in Bezzeras lingo) probably translates into ~ 9 bar at the puck. In any event, I would not go about adjusting any OPV until YOU know what YOU have AT THE GROUP with the flow through the group that YOU desire."

    So its possible that bezzera 12bar setting its the optimum setting for its machine? *:-?
    Dont think so....When you put a p/f gauge on the machine, you get 12 bar. How this can translate to 9 bar at the puck, Im not sure....

  46. #46
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    Re: VBM - quality not quite there

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1225344730/40#44 date=1226535073

    Dont think so....When you put a p/f gauge on the machine, you get 12 bar.
    Oh, I see. :)

    Well, I dont know nothing about coffee machines (im a computer technician)... Im only trying to bring some info to the forum. *:)



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