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Thread: ECM Giotto dies.

  1. #1
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    ECM Giotto dies.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Shee been going strong for about three years, until Friday night when she refused to heat up. Water level is fine, operated normally the night before. Whe the power was switched on, the pump started after a second or two, as is normal, came back 20 minutes later, pressure guage pointing further left than a left wing extremist. No heat, no pressure, I cried like a baby.

    Dropped it off at CosmoreX Saturday morning and the techs rang Monday before 1100 to say it was the water control electrical board, so far. It had died and without a new one, no further fault finding could be done. *They reckon it shouldnt take more than a day for the part to arrive, as long as there is one on the shelf. $300 for the part an $99 p/h to fit. Fingers crossed thats the extent of it.

    Question for Chris, do the CosmoreX techs need to know anything about the mod you do? Id hate them to "reset" the factory settings.

    Boris.

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A273A213B480 link=1243330457/0#0 date=1243330457
    Shee been going strong for about three years, until Friday night when she refused to heat up. Water level is fine, operated normally the night before. Whe the power was switched on, the pump started after a second or two, as is normal, came back 20 minutes later, pressure guage pointing further left than a left wing extremist. No heat, no pressure, I cried like a baby.

    Dropped it off at CosmoreX Saturday morning and the techs rang Monday before 1100 to say it was the water control electrical board, so far. It had died and without a new one, no further fault finding could be done. *They reckon it shouldnt take more than a day for the part to arrive, as long as there is one on the shelf. $300 for the part an $99 p/h to fit. Fingers crossed thats the extent of it.

    Question for Chris, do the CosmoreX techs need to know anything about the mod you do? Id hate them to "reset" the factory settings.

    Boris.
    :( Sorry to hear that Boris,

    Im sure that Mick at Cosmorex will look after it for you.

    It will be a straight board swap and you will be running the new Proelind board from the GPP which is much more robust. If they do a wiring loom change as well, you get the flashing low water light as well- at a cost.

    Nothing about the thermo upgrade will be influenced by the new board. You need only ensure that you are running the same boiler pressure. There should be no need to touch this though.

    Good luck with the repair.

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Ive heard about this problem a few times. Is this a common problem??

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 68606F69613B3E0A0 link=1243330457/2#2 date=1243332213
    Ive heard about this problem a few times. Is this a common problem??
    Hi bjeck,

    We have replaced quite a few boards- but in all brands. Most commonly, the element relay or the boiler fill switch pack it in...

    Youngest machine I have done one in was a Giotto 18 months old- which looked 10yo and was filthy. On the other hand, there are 10yo machines still running their original boards.

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Thanks for the reply Chris. Pays to look after your bling ;)

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Just spoke to Andrew at CosmoreX, the Auto fill box and loom has been ordered, the old one has been superceded. Should be here next Tuesday. Thats two weekends in a row without coffee.. :(

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 67525F586C705C55555656330 link=1243330457/3#3 date=1243333163
    Most commonly, the element relay or the boiler fill switch pack it in...
    Is that repairable? With $300 for a new board, isnt it doable to do a refurb board? Or is the new design so much better?

    RJ

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3B3C3C3B2D232827490 link=1243330457/6#6 date=1243732737
    Quote Originally Posted by 67525F586C705C55555656330 link=1243330457/3#3 date=1243333163
    Most commonly, the element relay or the boiler fill switch pack it in...
    Is that repairable? With $300 for a new board, isnt it doable to do a refurb board? Or is the new design so much better?

    RJ
    Probably/possibly....Problem is that there arent too many (any?) mobs out there refurbishing boards. Guess the labour might make it uneconomical.

    The new Proelind board is way more robust.

    2mcm

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A352D3B303B373E3E3D3D353936580 link=1243330457/7#7 date=1243735556
    Quote Originally Posted by 3B3C3C3B2D232827490 link=1243330457/6#6 date=1243732737
    Quote Originally Posted by 67525F586C705C55555656330 link=1243330457/3#3 date=1243333163
    Most commonly, the element relay or the boiler fill switch pack it in...
    Is that repairable? With $300 for a new board, isnt it doable to do a refurb board? Or is the new design so much better?

    RJ
    Probably/possibly....Problem is that there arent too many (any?) mobs out there refurbishing boards. Guess the labour might make it uneconomical.

    The new Proelind board is way more robust.

    2mcm
    Well I for one would be interested in looking at any old Boards that might have blown etc...

    As an Electronics technician and access to many skilled professionals.. You just do not know what can be done until you ask..

    As a job for a company... The one offs would make it unviable... from a $$$ and a Turn around response... Unless it was a simple problem.. In may cases, the part may need to be obtained and then testing could be a bit tricky...

    However, that being said... Any CS member with a dead board and who is not screwed for a quick TAT... Just contact me :-)

    AM

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Hi Snobs,
    * * * * * * *my Giotto is out of action at the moment too (its okay , the Bezzera needed testing any way ) , but before I went looking for dry joints the last time the controller misbehaved , I had a look over my Giottos controller pcb and .... theres a Z8 micro on board ...( the standard RL30 autolevel controller *used on everything else has 3 transistors , *1 relay and 1 power transformer and some diodes and passives ).
    In the Giotto the pressurestat directly controls mains to the element via a single relay in the Giotto controller , but other than looking at the boiler level sensor and the tank level sensor , and running the autofill valve and the pump to fill the boiler , the controller does nothing else .. and really doesnt need a micro .... or maybe a $3 pic 12C509
    anyone good with a Z8 dissassembler ?? *
    Might be time to wire in my spare RL30 into my misbehaving Giotto.

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Sorry Pip you lost me the ones and zeros talk. .
    AngerManagement, when I get the dead one back we should talk to see if its worth having a look at.

    The storey thus far. I rang today after not hearing anything for a week. The part was not shipped when part supplier said it would be, apparrently the supplier promised it would be shipped today. Its only coming from ECM in Sydney to Canberra, how hard can it be? Fingers crossed its here by Friday and they have time to fit it, finish testing and call me. God help me, a long weekend without coffee@home.!!

    2MCM I have PM for you.

    Boris

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 173A273C26550 link=1243330457/10#10 date=1244025172
    Sorry Pip you lost me the ones and zeros talk. .
    AngerManagement, when I get the dead one back we should talk to see if its worth having a look at.

    The storey thus far. I rang today after not hearing anything for a week. The part was not shipped when part supplier said it would be, apparrently the supplier promised it would be shipped today. Its only coming from ECM in Sydney to Canberra, how hard can it be? Fingers crossed its here by Friday and they have time to fit it, finish testing and call me. God help me, a long weekend without coffee@home.!!

    2MCM I have PM for you.

    Boris
    Just let me know... Here is hoping all works out for *Friday... Opps Long weekend... Guess what is going to happen ???

    INSTANT :D

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    ecm are usually fairly good. If they have it in stock, its at your door the next day.
    I had to order 1 small part and it arrived next day in an express post bag.

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    AM is INSTANTly cruel *:-? [smiley=engel017.gif]

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Alas, AM was on the money. I should have seen it written in all the freakin tea leaves Ive been drinking. I will say though Instant = not if it can possibly be avoided at all costs. Il happily ride 10kms to the nearest decent Cafe just for a fix.

    Anyway rang again today (Friday) the part has arrived :), no idea how long to fit it or if it will be ready Saturday AM, :( will call back to confirm.

    Dave did call back to confirm:
    1. That he could not confirm how long it would take :( ,
    2. Nor when it might be ready :-[ ,
    3. That my job was in a cue :-/ and,
    4. Thats just the way it is >:( .

    Delightful. Super.
    Oh, and
    5. That I should enjoy my long weekend. Hell call me when its ready.

    I am a synic, my wife has mentioned this several times over the years, but Miss Giotto has been in a cue for two weeks already. Does that mean there are a large number of machines broken and CosmoreX has the lions share of the repair market in the ACT. Is it one job at a time till finished thing? Commercial orders in front, then warranty jobs, then the rest of the customers at the back?

    Im frustrated and annoyed (large rant went here, but after re-reading, I self moderated).
    More rant, started up again on a customer service approach and did the re-read thing. I didnt buy the machine there, its not under warranty, I guess Im at their mercy.

    Lets hope its ready sooner rather than later.

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Hi Boris,

    Its an easy fix and about a 30min job. I can send you a wiring diagram if you want to do it yourself and save on caffeine withdrawl ;)

    Youll need a 7mm spanner, small shifting spanner and 1 x insulated spade connector to blank off a terminal on the new board.

    2mcm

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    yes very easy and i would take up 2mcm on his offer if you can.

    I did mine a while ago and its very straight forward

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    I called again today, any guesses?

    No, still not ready. :o

    No idea when it might be ready either, theyll call me when its fixed. :-/

    Its in the cue. Thats just the way it is. >:(


    I am to wait in the land of no coffee machine like an addict going through withdrawals. Im getting caffine, but I didnt realiase I would miss my machine sooo much. Not even an offer of a loaner (I would have though that would have been a good opportunity to push a replacement meachin) to tie me over, just wait till were good and ready.

    When ever that is................................................ ...................

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Hi Boris,

    I have sent you some instructions...

    Hope youre caffeinated again really soon :-/

    2mcm

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 67525F586C705C55555656330 link=1243330457/3#3 date=1243333163

    The new Proelind board is way more robust.

    2mcm
    Im glad I saw this, as Im thinking about buying a Giotto in the next few months. *Do the new machines come with these more robust Proelind boards already in them?

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3E39313C3C2035343C3F27500 link=1243330457/19#19 date=1244627362
    Im glad I saw this, as Im thinking about buying a Giotto in the next few months. *Do the new machines come with these more robust Proelind boards already in them?
    Absolutely! ;)

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Hi 2mcm
    Id be interested in the same instructions you sent to Boris if not too much of a hassle.
    This is my first post, so will PM you too.
    Thx
    C

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 090A0D04090C0008630 link=1243330457/21#21 date=1244783819
    Hi 2mcm
    Id be interested in the same instructions you sent to Boris if not too much of a hassle.
    This is my first post, so will PM you too.
    Thx
    C
    Happy to send them via email if you make contact Jing...Just drop me an email and Ill reply....

    Keep in mind that if you goof with a connection, youll be making a $260+ mistake ::)

    2mcm

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    guys, lets not get too carried away here. My first board lasted 5 years.
    Got the new one and its easy to replace.
    Just follow the old one, the markings are the same so you cant stuff it up.

    If a fool like myself can strip a giotto down completely, clean it replace some parts and put it back together in working order within a few days

    then


    anyone can do it


    boris, go pick up your machine + part and do it yourself. It will take no more then 20 - 30 minutes

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 547176705F1E0 link=1243330457/23#23 date=1244792951
    guys, lets not get too carried away here. My first board lasted 5 years.
    Got the new one and its easy to replace.
    Just follow the old one, the markings are the same so you cant stuff it up.

    If a fool like myself can strip a giotto down completely, clean it replace some parts and put it back together in working order within a few days

    then

    anyone can do it

    boris, go pick up your machine + part and do it yourself. It will take no more then 20 - 30 minutes
    Hi Jon,

    The new Proelind board is different to the RL30 in your machine (as I recall). You do need to follow the wiring diagram as this board is designed for the GPP and adapted to suit the GP. Replacement of the wiring loom allows GPP functionality with a flashing low water power light.

    2mcm

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    fair enough 2mcm, but with a few simple instructions to follow, as you have so kindly provided, im sure it still cant be that hard

    all this talk of giottos
    time to make a coffee and put some vinyl on to listen to

    ahh life is sweet

  27. #27
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies, but now lives again!!

    On Wednesday when I called CosmoreX, I asked Dave to call me Friday AM and let me know how the job was progressing. No call, *:o , so I went around to collect Miss Giotto, dead or alive Friday arvo. Im here to collect my machine, Dave says its not ready, dont care, just want it back, Dave says its in bits waiting to be finished off, dont care, Ill take it as is. Ok says Dave and walks off. Dave returns empty handed with Mick the Techo. Mick appologies for the extensive delay, not acceptable, and if I can wait an hour, hell do it right now. *Man, if Id have had a hand full of coal, I would have made diamonds...

    Paid the $394 and left. No appolgy from Dave, no nothing. Really really surprised and disappointed by the whole experience.

    As soon as I got home I tested her out. Heats up fine, steams fime but there is definitely something different with the hot water output.
    Now if I take a cup of hot water, it sounds like the fill pump kicks in and keeps pumping until the pressure guage hit around the 0.5 mark or lower, it never used to.

    A question to users who have used both types of board, it this normal following the change of boards? My pressure when steady is around 1.2 / 1.1 where as previous to the board failing was around 1.3. Im just after confirmation either way if there is to be an expected change to performance following a board change.

    Boris

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    I dont know about the Giotto, but Im sure someone will.

    I do know that my Diadema standing pressure is between .85 and .95 after Cosmorexs pre-delivery set-up, and that it seems to work fine.

    Greg

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7558455E44370 link=1243330457/26#26 date=1244872772
    Now if I take a cup of hot water, it sounds like the fill pump kicks
    Thats normal. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by 7558455E44370 link=1243330457/26#26 date=1244872772
    My pressure when steady is around 1.2 / 1.1
    Thats normal. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by 7558455E44370 link=1243330457/26#26 date=1244872772
    previous to the board failing was around 1.3
    That was not so good. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by 704552506058455A565B53370 link=1243330457/27#27 date=1244875316
    my Diadema standing pressure is between .85 and .95
    Thats totally irrelevant. ;)

    Hows the coffee Boris?


  30. #30
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6548554E54270 link=1243330457/26#26 date=1244872772
    Now if I take a cup of hot water, it sounds like the fill pump kicks in and keeps pumping until the pressure guage hit around the 0.5 mark or lower, it never used to.
    This is the same as what my GPP does: if you draw hot water, the pump will start and run for about 20 seconds. I havent noticed what the pressure gauge is doing at that time. It normally sits on about 1.1 bar

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    The pressure on my GPP also falls when hot water is drawn. I think thats normal.

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32383520233C3D2031540 link=1243330457/30#30 date=1244882928
    The pressure on my GPP also falls when hot water is drawn. I think thats normal.
    Yes- it has to as youre introducing cold water into the boiler. It has to be heated to create steam ;)

    2mcm

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 242E2336352A2B3627420 link=1243330457/30#30 date=1244882928
    The pressure on my GPP also falls when hot water is drawn.
    As Chris said, its COLD water being drawn into the bolier that causes the temporary pressure drop.

    Thats why I make long blacks last.

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    I understand what is happening, what I would like to know is why the change when it didnt happen to the same extent before the board change. The same volume of water is being tapped off, why the change in behaviour? Down to a black box thing?

    Most importantly, the coffee still tastes superb, as it does when you roast it yourself. :D

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    I thought the answer was obvious: different control board - different behaviour. Or could it be that the old one wasnt doing what it was supposed to?
    The main thing is that it is making good coffee now. Enjoy!

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Glad that you have it back Boris,

    I am sure that Attilio will read this and will not be happy. Possibly might have been a good thing to have chatted with him about the experience?

    Glad that youre up and running...

    2mcm


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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 742B33252E2529202023232B2728460 link=1243330457/35#35 date=1244939449
    Possibly might have been a good thing to have chatted with him about the experience?
    This is one of the unfortunate downsides of the Internet. The effort required to highlight your dissatisfaction on a bulleting board makes it an attractive option when compared with contacting someone who could make it right.

    Hopefully Boris posts here again with some positive feedback after speaking with Attilio.

    Grant

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    As the sponsor who sold Boris his machine, Id like to make a request of CSers...

    Please, please, please identify yourself in any dealings with sponsors. We are here because we too are passionate about coffee.

    As a CS member, sponsors want to provide you with special pricing, preferential treatment and a great service or buying experience, but we need to know!

    At Talk Coffee, we always prioritise CS work and I know that is why Attilio requests that you use him as your CosmoreX contact- to ensure that you are moved as far up the queue as humanly possible. In this instance, I fear that he was unaware of your repair Boris and the lads didnt know it was a "special" job... *:-/

    So please guys, just ask so that we can ensure that you receive ;)

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    IMO the above attitude is wrong.

    For the record... Im not commenting specifically on Boris case here - because I dont know all the facts of that - And further, Attilio has been nothing but helpful to me even though I didnt get my BFC from his store.

    But to imply that normal customers wont get the same high level of service because theyre not a member of a website (or dont advise you of that fact) is a poor excuse for bad service.

  40. #40
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 477E7474787B785B76636372170 link=1243330457/38#38 date=1245022595
    IMO the above attitude is wrong. *

    For the record... Im not commenting specifically on Boris case here - because I dont know all the facts of that - And further, Attilio has been nothing but helpful to me even though I didnt get my BFC from his store.

    But to imply that normal customers wont get the same high level of service because theyre not a member of a website (or dont advise you of that fact) is a poor excuse for bad service.

    Nuhuh PL,

    What I am saying is that we will prioritise CS work to ensure that you get even better service than we regularly deliver.

    In the case of Talk Coffee, that means that rather than leaving your repair for a few days, wherever possible, it will be completed while you wait.

    Id argue than both scenarios constitute great service, but as a CSer, you get something out of the ordinary...

    I hope you dont have a problem with that or any other special treatment (discounts, subsised bean freight etc.) you receive just for being a member? *:-?

    Chris

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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    I understand where youre coming from. I can appreciate that you put in extra effort when dealing with customers who are members because they are passionate about coffee.

    I would just hope that you would offer a similar level of service to other customers who are passionate about their coffee (but who may not be members). Not everyone who has skill with an espresso machine has commensurate skill on a computer.






  42. #42
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A333939353635163B2E2E3F5A0 link=1243330457/40#40 date=1245026748
    a similar level of service
    You said it PL... similar.
    It doesnt mean identical.

    I consider the service of the sponsors much better than average.
    If we (CS members) get a slightly better service than what is already great, then IMO theres no argument.

  43. #43
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 417D607B717067727A71150 link=1243330457/41#41 date=1245027324
    Quote Originally Posted by 0A333939353635163B2E2E3F5A0 link=1243330457/40#40 date=1245026748
    a similar level of service
    You said it PL... similar.
    It doesnt mean identical.

    I consider the service of the sponsors much better than average.
    If we (CS members) get a slightly better service than what is already great, then IMO theres no argument.
    I agree..

    It is not to say Mr Public *get naught or crap... *But a little more like a SLA or Contract... ;)

    All be it, that CS members may not have all sponsors equipment, it is a gentlemens agreement/understanding *( and one of marketing *;) ) *that as a client and a CS member; Your requests and or needs may be able to be managed. 8-)

    I am sure that when push came to shove and a big client */ or a formally contracted client etc needed top priority... They would get it, over Mr John Doe and even a CS member... :o

    For want of a better analogy... Your a Gold Wing member by default... *Thus a few specials may be available, that would not normally be offered to the public OR would be offered after CSs have been given first bite. ;)

    On that note, *A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL *SPONSORS * [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

  44. #44
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    You cant excuse bad service by saying that it is the clients fault for not advising that they are a CS member.

    That is what I got from TCs post - that members should let a sponsor know they are a CS member - and why I said it was wrong.

    Its like saying that restaurant reviewers should advise a chef that they are dining at a specific time - so that the chef can put in extra effort for that customer - rather than risk getting a bad review.

  45. #45
    TC
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    ::) Sheesh, I give up....

    I promise no special treatment should you ever call PL...It will be cattle class all the way.... :D

  46. #46
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 625B51515D5E5D7E53464657320 link=1243330457/38#38 date=1245022595
    But to imply that normal customers wont get the same high level of service because theyre not a member of a website (or dont advise you of that fact) is a poor excuse for bad service. *
    Come, come now PL. Enjoying exclusive service that a membership offers does not imply that everyone else receives sub-standard service.

    I dont think the exclusive CS service is as hypocritical as your restaurant reviewer analogy suggests. To continue the analogy, its like going to a good restaurant and getting shown to the best table ahead of other diners because s/he knows you or you have some sort of special diner status. *The other diners wont necessary get lousy service; just not as good as yours.

  47. #47
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 14212C2B1F032F26262525400 link=1243330457/44#44 date=1245032300
    ::) Sheesh, I give up....

    I promise no special treatment should you ever call PL...It will be cattle class all the way.... :D
    Hey Chris,

    I love your style of customer service, keep it up, I dont think you could do Cattle Class, even for a real PITA customer. You make everyone feel special, even if what you are doing for them is "normal" by your standards.

    Buying my Gene was a great retail experience :). You and the other sponsors that I have dealt with have all been true professionals, it has been about providing what is right, rather than getting the sale.

    I get the feeling of special treatment because Im a CS member. You all call it normal, but it is special, and you guys make it that*way by making "doing the right thing for the customer" the most important part of the service :)

  48. #48
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0134393E0A163A33333030550 link=1243330457/44#44 date=1245032300
    ::) Sheesh, I give up....

    I promise no special treatment should you ever call PL...It will be cattle class all the way.... :D
    Thats ok... Virgin blue didnt recognise my Regular Roaster status when I asked for an upgrade either ;)

    Im sure your economy level of service would be more than adequate for my meagre coffee needs.

  49. #49
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Whilst I certainly agree that people are often too quick to complain and in the case of BBs, far too quick to slander and defame...it doesnt seem like the case in this instance.

    I dont care if youre President of the Instant Coffee Society, EVERY customer deserves to have a phone call returned, a courtesy call made (to update status) and be spoken to honestly. You want to prioritise commercial customers? Fine. But tell me this so I can make an informed decision on whether or not I want to leave my machine with you. With the part finally in stock yet saying "Cant say when, cant estimate"....well thats "Cant be fooked" in my book.

    If Boris has presented a factual presentation of the situation then I dont think hes out of order at all.

    Wheres AMs banned mantra when you need it.

    Epic76


  50. #50
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    Re: ECM Giotto dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by 774E4444484B486B46535342270 link=1243330457/47#47 date=1245037157
    when I asked for an upgrade
    I guess you were glad you didnt get it. After all, you wouldnt want to receive any special treatment now would you?

    Perhaps you feel its wrong for me to think this way, but I see CS as more than a forum. I see it as a close community, or family if you will. Many members have had the opportunity to meet each other, share their experiences and passion, and develop friendships along the way. And for this reason if for no other, I make no apology for doing my best to provide a little something extra, that goes beyond what I hope is already well and truly above the norm.

    Of course, I dont know the full circumstances around this repair, though suspect that each party involved would have their own perception of events that took place. I also accept that no matter how hard you try, being human means that no matter how well intentioned, mistakes can occur from time to time. I think providing some direct and constructive feedback can help minimise errors more than venting in a forum where it could easily not be seen by one of the people involved.

    Anyway, if youre ever over my way PL, drop in for a cuppa. I promise to charge you the same as everyone else. :)




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