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Thread: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

  1. #1
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    Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi. This may have been covered elsewhere, but Ive struggled to find specific answers.
    I purchased a second hand Giotto Premium around a month ago and decided to get a bottomless portafilter at the same time. Coming from my old Gaggia there was quite a learning curve but eventually I was pulling reasonable tasting shots with the standard handle. Now to the bottomless... Whilst I have improved from the initial disastrous pulls, Im still nowhere near a good one.
    Im using a Cunil tranquilo grinder and Reg Barber Tamper. The filter basket is 21g. At the moment Ive had best luck with the following:

    Grind into dosing spoon then transfer to filter basket until heaped, tap lightly on the bench then add more grinds (Earlier pulls seemed much worse without tapping to settle grinds as I think it was underdosed).

    As there seems to be a lot of static and clumping from the cunil I have then been "stirring" the grinds with a paper clip before leveling. I level with the straight back edge of a knife and then tamp. I just tamp once and finish with a twist (no knocking after light tamp then heavy tamp or anything else), then I blow off the loose grinds around the edges.

    The resulting pull at best starts reasonbly evenly (more from outside), to then form a peak from near to the middle, but there are still spots around the basket indicating chaneling (?) and resulting in smaller spirals or drips near the outside of the basket which dont join the middle (and cause mess). The edges of the puck are usually "pitted" slightly, but otherwise firm (as long as I have overdosed as above), and not showing anything alse to speak of.

    Ive been practising for some time (a lot of wasted coffee with the 21g basket), and have come to a plateau of results, so to speak. Im a reletive newbie, so maybe Im doing something obviously wrong. I cant work out what I need to do to improve further though. Please help!

  2. #2
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    My only advice here is patience. I went through a similar learning curve on my previous machine and turned to the naked. Then it reached the stage where I didnt seem to be progressing.

    Theres an on-line resource here that might help but the clincher for me was
    - ensuring that the basket was properly dosed (i was under-dosing)
    - ensuring there are no gaps around the edges (especially where the handle meets the filter holder)
    - and the tamp was level.
    I have a Pullman which makes that a bit easier for a level tamp but if you have a ridged basket, that will give a pretty good indication of a level tamp.

  3. #3
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Hi Ben,

    I have 2 of the same grinders (regular & decaf) and while I consider them to be ugly , slow & noisey, the grind quality is pretty good...... But on both of mine I grind into plastic containers that are sized *so that you can totally invert them into the group handle....... Once in the group handle upside down .... I tap group handle *on the counter and rotate my plastic containers right and left.
    Using a Espro tamper , I light tamp ....tap .... and *heavy tamp til I get the click from Espro...

    Thats me for dosing..... though I dont have a naked group handle to play with....

    My plastic containers are sauce bottles from the $2 shop, chopped down, providing a snug fit in the group handle.

    Good luck

    ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind

  4. #4
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 30372C2B30373C580 link=1256859191/2#2 date=1256888453
    ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write *P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind *
    Thats Andy having a little fun.... Trying to steer people away from the Americanised so-called porta_filter and encourage us to use the more correct term of Group Handle. Seems fair enough to me I must admit.... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Thanks for the help. I should have known thered be no easy way foward...

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 54797D717C100 link=1256859191/3#3 date=1256922387
    Quote Originally Posted by 30372C2B30373C580 link=1256859191/2#2 date=1256888453
    ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write *P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind *
    Thats Andy having a little fun.... Trying to steer people away from the Americanised so-called Portafilter and encourage us to use the more correct term of Group Handle. Seems fair enough to me I must admit.... :)

    Mal.
    ha ha he did it to you to mal ;D

  7. #7
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Yeah, he did..... ;D

    Mal.

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E64716666697D7B080 link=1256859191/1#1 date=1256861872
    - ensuring that the basket was properly dosed (i was under-dosing)
    - ensuring there are no gaps around the edges (especially where the handle meets the filter holder)
    - and the tamp was level.
    I have a Pullman which makes that a bit easier for a level tamp but if you have a ridged basket, that will give a pretty good indication of a level tamp.
    Personally, I find under-dosing is often a great way to correct channelling on machines I havent tried before. The Reg Barber might actually be my choice over the Pullman (nothing against greg, I like the feeling but my wife doesnt like the colours ;)), and the levelling rings are a useful training tool, but you shouldnt need them. A level tamp and correct edge distribution will probably do more. have you tried pressing around the top with the pad of one of your fingers to find out where weak spots are?

    Remember that youre trying to go for an even extraction rather than a perfectly flat, pre-tamped surface. On a HX E61 machine, shots which are updosed are likely to start extracting on the outside first. You could look at a set of Scottie Callaghans dosing tools from Di Bartoli (or any other sponsor that sells them), and use a #4 in the home set to excavate the middle and improve distribution. I suggest trying to give up on the WDT and Im wondering if youre not fracturing the top of the puck when you give it a twist to polish.

    Which city/area are you in? If its Sydney, Im happy to meet up and pull shots with you.

    cheers,

    John.

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 6944404C412D0 link=1256859191/3#3 date=1256922387
    Quote Originally Posted by 30372C2B30373C580 link=1256859191/2#2 date=1256888453
    ***** looks like some big brother editing going on here .... every time I write *P....F... the word group handle appears ..... you mods are playing with my mind *
    Thats Andy having a little fun.... Trying to steer people away from the Americanised so-called porta_filter and encourage us to use the more correct term of Group Handle. Seems fair enough to me I must admit.... :)

    Mal.
    My understand is that p*rtafilt*r is the group handle, basket and spouts assembly rather than just the group handle. It annoys me that the anti-swear filters arent set on here to do much other than mess with peoples heads, but as its andys forum he can do what he likes ;D

  10. #10
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    I thought the word came from Italian and that "porta" means carry or hold and in this case "filter" is the basket.

    I think its a given that the spouts are included.

  11. #11
    brett230873
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    In Italian "porta" means door or gate. This makes the "portafilter" noun one of those mixed language specimens like "Supermercato."

  12. #12
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Porta means door in Greek too but the root word "port" means to carry.

    French porter, to carry, from Old French, from Latin portre;

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 4865646F75687578010 link=1256859191/7#7 date=1257085844

    The Reg Barber might actually be my choice over the Pullman.....
    Ive had my Reg for about 10 years now and its as good now as the day it arrived. At that time I had to order it direct from Reg Barber in Canada and have it shipped to me. There were no local agents in the country (that I could find anyway).

    I remember being very worried about whether it would be worth spending quite that much on a bit of wood and metal. Needless to say my wife didnt know how much it cost (and still doesnt shhhh :P) because the justification process even for me was tough. I love her dearly, but there was no way shed get it ;)

    Unfortunately, since moving to a Giotto, Ive found that Reg is just a little too loose in the basket for me to be comfortable. So Im currently awaiting delivery of my new customised Pullman Barista *(stealth black with some nifty laser etching) and fitted Synesso baskets. And no, my wife doesnt know how much this one is costing either.... its better for everyone concerned if it stays that way ;D

    Hey, its only money...... *::)


  14. #14
    brett230873
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 0F332E353F3E293C343F5B0 link=1256859191/11#11 date=1257118678
    Porta means door in Greek too but the root word "port" means to carry.

    French porter, to carry, from Old French, from Latin portre;
    Ahah! Somewhere in the dim recesses of my brain I was aware of the Latin yet didnt make the immediate connection. Thank you! CoffeeSnobs and culture seem to go hand in hand!

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Coffee Horse- thanks fo the offer, its much appreciated. Unfortunatly Im in Hobart though. Sorry, Im not sure exactly what you mean by "WDT" (some part of my process, no doubt)? Ill try the other tips anyway.

    On the reg Barber- I also notice that there is a reasonable gap around the circumference, particularly with the straight (non-tapered) sides of the 21g basket- do you think this is enough to cause an issue? Also on that note, I seem to have more consistent results using the giotto double basket in the bottomless handle- something to do with the shape, perhaps?

    Cheers

  16. #16
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Hi Ben ,

    Putting aside the linguistic discussion.....and the highjacking of your thread

    Hows it going , with your naked P.... F...(group thingy)

    hotshod

  17. #17
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Hi. Possible slight improvements are being made... Ive used your tip and its a lot simpler than stirring the clumped grounds. I guess Ive resigned to pulling a lot more shots before they are particularly good. When they are good Ill be sure to take a photo and post it!
    Unfortunatly my practice has come to a halt... Must get more beans today.

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Guys thought I might give this a bump as I am trying to solve my naked extraction issues too and rather than start a new thread I thought I would post here.

    I have recently upgraded from the Expobar a new Giotto premium plus and over the last couple of days I have been playing around with the naked group handle and I am not happy with the results I am seeing.

    Basically the pour is coming from the edge of the basket closest to the handle if that makes sense. The droplets all form at the front near the handle first and the pour starts near the handle and not in centre. In fact the the rear 3rd of the basket hardly even pours. The droplets form but the coffee wont flow and there is just a thick residue left on the underside of the basket.

    Now clearly I think I must have some channeling issues at the front of the basket but the puck is nice and firm and springy, there are no visible signs of channeling or worm holes and i am at a loss.

    I have a pullman tamp so I know that at least my tamp is level as the side rings match up.

    I have tried distributing n/s/e/w and circular. I have tried not distributing and just tamping the mound and also just sweeping level, always with the same results.

    I collapse halfway through filling the basket and I am using a mazzer mini. I have tried a double and triple basket too.

    Any thoughts?

    Dean

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    TC
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 7C7F6C6C7B721E0 link=1256859191/17#17 date=1260055902
    Guys thought I might give this a bump as I am trying to solve my naked extraction issues too and rather than start a new thread I thought I would post here.
    Hi Dean,

    Come by for a play someday when youre free....Sounds like there may be value in pulling a few shots ;)

    Chris

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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Thanks mate, I feel a little sheepish, I should have this soughted by now!

  21. #21
    A_M
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 496E65544C79626E7D6E26416463657864650B0 link=1256859191/14#14 date=1257197507
    Coffee Horse- thanks fo the offer, its much appreciated. Unfortunatly Im in Hobart though. Sorry, Im not sure exactly what you mean by "WDT" (some part of my process, no doubt)? Ill try the other tips anyway.

    On the reg Barber- I also notice that there is a reasonable gap around the circumference, particularly with the straight (non-tapered) sides of the 21g basket- do you think this is enough to cause an issue? Also on that note, I seem to have more consistent results using the giotto double basket in the bottomless handle- something to do with the shape, perhaps?

    Cheers
    And

    Quote Originally Posted by 696A79796E670B0 link=1256859191/19#19 date=1260056312
    Thanks mate, I feel a little sheepish, I should have this soughted by now!

    Weiss Distribution Technique, or WDT.... YA ya ya *:D


    Trust this link is OK... http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html

    For all their FAQs go here... http://www.home-barista.com/faqs-and-favorites-digest.html

    If the inks are removed use Google to *search for "home-barista faqs"

    Or I usually like Randy G and use his page and his links page as my index... *http://home.surewest.net/frcn/Coffee/CoffeeForums.html * Oh guess what CS is listed there too *:D ;D *8-) *8-)

    RANDY G... Ya a good link source of info...

  22. #22
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    To check if it is a tamping issue, rotate the basket 180░ after tamping and see if that changes anything.

    Give the shower screen a real good brushing, or even remove it and check that no holes are blocked.

    What does the flow from the head look like without a handle in place?

    Knock the puck out carefully and have a look at the colour on the bottom--is it consistent there?

    Greg

  23. #23
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Ok Greg just tried your suggestion and rotated the basket 180░ and it pours much better. Still not perfect but much better. I have tried a few shots and every time I rotate the basket the shot is consistently a lot better.

    I would have thought the the problem should have followed the rotation?

    I will pull some shots with Chris when we get some time but I found this interesting.

  24. #24
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 50534040575E320 link=1256859191/22#22 date=1260082096
    Ok Greg just tried your suggestion and rotated the basket 180░ and it pours much better. Still not perfect but much better. *I have tried a few shots and every time I rotate the basket the shot is consistently a lot better. *

    I would have thought the the problem should have followed the rotation?

    I will pull some shots with Chris when we get some time but I found this interesting. *
    Yeah, me too. It starts to sound like a combination of dosing/tamping, and something to do with the water delivery.

    Or maybe its a basket in the handle issue???? and rotating the basket undoes it???

    Take your gear with you when you visit Chris.

    Greg

  25. #25
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    Re: Failing at Giotto Naked Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A7F686A5A627F606C61690D0 link=1256859191/23#23 date=1260099188
    Take your gear with you when you visit Chris.

    Greg
    id suggest wearing your gear, rather than taking your gear with you



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