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Thread: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

  1. #1
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    Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I am having problems getting the water any hotter than 80 deg celc from the group. I have recently changed the thermostat (165 deg C manual rest). The water coming out of the hot water spout is plenty hot enough. Just seems the water coming out of the group is too cold. I have measured the temp using a probe in a foam cup close to the group. I have also increased the pressurestat slightly with little result. Is there anything else I can do? The espresso seems to be lacking a thick crema which I think is related to the poor temperature. I have used the same coffee in a cheap breville espresso machine where it gets to 85-90 degrees & has a thick crema.


    Any help is appreciated. Regards

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature


    words

    i assume this is the machine?

    we might need more info...

    how long are you letting the machine be "on" before testing the temp?
    is your temp gauge accurate? (test in ice slurry and boiling water)
    the foam cup is ok but your going to lose temp FAST!! so preheat the cup and temp gauge etc.

    Have you been flushing pre shot ? does that make it get hotter or cooler at the Ghead?

    apart from ideas, turning up the pstat should result in higher boiler temp and pressure....

    what sort of coffee is it, how fresh, and what do you grind with?
    (sneaky idea the breville has a pressure basket.....)

  3. #3
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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Hmmm.... ::)

    Using the "Foam Cup Method" is terribly unreliable and will only provide you with very rough relative information, nothing that you can use definitively.

    Far better to acquire a "Bead Type" Thermocouple that you can attach to a Digital Multimeter (some DMMs come with them). If you dont already own a suitable DMM, I can highly recommend the unit that Andy imports especially for CS Members. You can check it out here.... http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/Vi...re-data-logger although they appear to be Nil Stock at the moment.

    Anyway, once you have a suitable DMM and Bead T/couple its quite straight forward. Load and Tamp your basket as per normal and then sit the Bead T/couple about midway between the centre of the puck and the edge of the basket. Hold it in place while you lock the Group Handle to prevent it from being pulled out and then you should be ready to go. If your Group Gasket is in reasonable nick, you shouldnt experience any leaks around the T/couple cable. If you do notice a little water weeping around it though, just nip-up the Group Handle until it seals properly. The insulation used on most Bead T/couples is of woven fibreglass design and very, very tough so you are not likely to damage it.

    After youre all set up and ready to go, just hit the brew button/switch and observe what the water temperature profile is doing and record the data. If you have one of Andys DMMs, you can utilise the Roast Monitor Software to both view the profile and record it for later analysis via Excel or similar. Run the shot for at least as long as a normal shot would take, i.e. 30 seconds or so, to give the HX System a chance to display its operating characteristics.

    Why go to all this trouble? Well, espresso machines are quite finely tuned thermodynamic pieces of hardware and unless you replicate exactly, the conditions of pulling a normal 30/60ml shot in 30 seconds or so, you will not be able to accurately determine whether the Brew System is doing its job properly. Considering how easy it is to attach the T/couple to your DMM and site the bead on top of a normally prepared coffee puck, there really isnt an argument for not doing the job properly.

    Have a go and see what you find out. Its all part of becoming involved in the processes of making great coffee... And pretty good fun at the same time ;)

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Thanks Maheel & Mal. The picture of the machine is very similar. The coffee is fresh & I am letting the machine warm up for considerable time with multiple shots.

    The Breville I was using was the 800ES with an unpressurised (KRUPS) basket. It is definately hotter than the Brasilia using the same measuring technique.

    I will take Mals info onboard. I think I have a bead-type thermocouple . Is it basically a wire-like thermocouple as opposed to the probe type?

    Once measured, if it is around 80 deg celcius what can I do increase the temperature? Could it be a design fault of the machine where it loses too much heat between the group & the boiler?

  5. #5
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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by 30767571767676450 link=1271639862/3#3 date=1271668306
    I think I have a bead-type thermocouple . *Is it basically a wire-like thermocouple as opposed to the probe type?
    Yes mate, thatll probably be the one and at the "business end" it will have a very small bead where the two dissimilar metals have been welded together to form the bead itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by 30767571767676450 link=1271639862/3#3 date=1271668306
    Once measured, if it is around 80 deg Celsius what can I do increase the temperature? *Could it be a design fault of the machine where it loses too much heat between the group & the boiler?
    Could be any number of reasons as to why this might be the case but it will be best to hold off on speculation until you have the data in hand.

    Mal.

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    I have measured the temperature using the bead thermocouple within the group and it only gets to 72-74 deg cel. I have also tested the thermocouple in boiling water & around ice to make sure it is calibrated.

    As mentioned I have only recently replaced the thermostat (165 deg cel). Water out of the boiler is definitely 100 deg cel. Any ideas?

    Thankyou

  7. #7
    TC
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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by 44020105020202310 link=1271639862/5#5 date=1272143760
    I have measured the temperature using the bead thermocouple within the group and it only gets to 72-74 deg cel. *I have also tested the thermocouple in boiling water & around ice to make sure it is calibrated. *

    As mentioned I have only recently replaced the thermostat (165 deg cel). *Water out of the boiler is definitely 100 deg cel. *Any ideas? *

    Thankyou
    Scale blockage in the thermosyphon or in the tube leading to it resulting in a cold group. I have seen it before and it perfectly mirrors these symptoms. I assume this machine has a pressurestat, so I am unsure as to what thermostat was replaced??

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by 61272420272727140 link=1271639862/0#0 date=1271639862
    I have recently changed the thermostat (165 deg C manual rest). *
    Sounds like the thermal cut out for the boiler element? This actually takes no part in controlling the temperature or pressure of the boiler it is just a safety cutout for the element.

    What 2mcm said above is a possible or your pressurestat is set to low (or faulty). Where abouts in Oz are you too, it might be worth dropping in to one of the sponsors to get them to take a look at your machine if all else fails?

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by 65232024232323100 link=1271639862/0#0 date=1271639862
    The water coming out of the hot water spout is plenty hot enough
    Quote Originally Posted by 7275717E767C69797E77100 link=1271639862/7#7 date=1272152860
    pressurestat is set to low
    Doesnt the pressurestat control boiler pressure, in turn boiler temperature, in turn HX temp? aka, good water wand temp would mean good boiler temp = good HX temp and good brew temp.......without a blockage somewhere......

    How long since youve descaled? filtered water?

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Last time I looked wter boils at about 100C boilers on coffee machines run at about 120-130C and yet it is still possible to make wet steam at .8-.9 bar this will give you good hot water (as the boiler is still above 100C), bad steam and a low shot temp. A good read here http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

    If scale is an issue then one of the places scale can accumulate as easily as in the HX line is the base of the PStat under the diaphragm or in the line running to it as well. Scale doesnt just occour in one place normally.

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    I think I have solved it! I pulled apart the "turbine connector" from the turbine. There was a heavily corroded terminal. I cleaned it up & descaled as well.

    Correct me if I am wrong, I suspect what was happening before I fixed up the terminal was the water was simply being pumped from the water tank through the boiler heat exchange & then into group and then the cup (around 72-74 deg cel). Without the turbine working to allow a circulation to occur (mixing the water tank water with water being circulated at around 100 deg cel) I was never going to get the higher temp.

    I have now measured the temp & it seems to be around 91-92 deg cel which is toward the higher end of the machine specs. Fantastic.

    I am still interested to know if my summary above is correct? Thankyou all for your help.

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    can we get some pictures of a "Turbine connector" please

    i want to know what this looks like and where it is, i have never heard of this "part" and am interested

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by 424E474A4A432F0 link=1271639862/11#11 date=1272176424
    can we get some pictures of a "Turbine connector" please

    i want to know what this looks like and where it is, i have never heard of this "part" and am interested *
    Didnt the doc have one of them in Back to the Future? :-? ;D

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    thats a flux capacitor.... (i think) *;D but maybe they had both

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Quote Originally Posted by 696E6A656D677262656C0B0 link=1271639862/9#9 date=1272159884
    Last time I looked wter boils at about 100C
    ::)
    Quote Originally Posted by 696E6A656D677262656C0B0 link=1271639862/9#9 date=1272159884
    bad steam and a low shot temp
    im not sh@t stirring bean, honestly, but isnt the difference between 1.2 b and .9 only around maybe 5C? max, he was reporting a ~20C loss in brew temp?

    Again, not stirring, just trying to learn more myself.....

    Cheers
    warren

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    I have now put the machine back together now but the connector attaches to part 401893 in the following Brasilia parts schematic. I am no technician but it might be a solenoid on the turbine?




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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    If you keep reading the link above you will also see that there is large variations from machine to machine on boiler pressures to get the correct brew Temp too. Another possibility is thermosyphon stall for whatever reason be it scale or flushing technique http://home.surewest.net/frcn/Coffee/stall.html A lot of it comes back to HX machines needing to clean and well setup to get good results as they rely on these thing to control shot temp.

    But Sounds like from what the OP put above a proper descale (talk to Bombora about their Triple Action) and clean is in order of all the bits regardless of the widget they cleaned manually to improve it ::) You may even be up for a strip and clean if it it bad enough. If you found scale somewhere it will be everywhere. Then fit some good water filtration to the machine I reckon.

    Got to love a bit of scale build up so if you found it in the lines your boiler may look like this *:P

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    hey Serenity

    thanks for sharing, I am no techie either your description really intrigued me, and i thought it might be the "flow meter" and was really confused / interested on how that would effect any water temp.

    I will have to keep my eyes out for that part in any machines i look in to figure out how it works.

    good to hear you have gotten an improvement hope the coffee is coming good and strong

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    no worries. The reason that part probably got corroded was the boiler had a leak some time ago & it is placed directly below the leak. Whilst I was fixing the boiler I stripped most parts/lines down & soaked in light acid. So I was pretty sure I had fixed any scale issue. Whatever that part does it seems to have corrected the problem. There was just one connector out of the three that was very corroded. The Brasilia parts booklet I have calls it a turbine connector & after pulling the base apart I could see a plastic turbine. I suspect the part seems to control the junction of water from the tank & water from the boiler recirc.

    Regards

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    Re: Brasilia "Cappucino" (Single group model 2003) Temperature

    Further research has revealed that part is also referred to as a volumemetric flowmeter (turbine meter). I guess it measures the flow rate & sends this information back to the control panel. How this part affects the group temperature, if it not working, I am not sure? Anybody care to comment.

    Sorry if I have lead you up the garden path with solenoids, turbine pumps etc. earlier. The parts booklet looks like it is written by an Italian & translated to English with some obvious translation errors -making my task difficult!



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