a couple more photos
I just picked up this Rancilio two group from the basement of a chinese restaurant in Surry Hills. I got it for a good price and I am hoping to do a restore and rebuild on it.
First thing I need to know is what model it is? Anyone out there know?
It has a Moccapan plate on it which lists the voltage and says it is 4.5 KW but no model information.
Sorry the photos are not so good, the man light blew in the shed and I only had my phone to take photos with.
a couple more photos
one more (I cant work out how to post multiple picture on a single post)
Look to the left, you can see add files and up to 5.Originally Posted by 1737243938560 link=1273915242/2#2 date=1273915354
OK, after searching the internet i am beginning to think it might be a Z11 though a more positive ID would be great.
I took most of the body work off yesterday and discovered that on the whole it looks pretty clean inside. It has mercury switches which look to be in good nick and quite a shiny boiler with only one spot at the bottom of the site glass bracket that is corroded.
Unfortunately it looks like a rat as taken up residence at some point above one of the groups and has chewed through all the wires that go to the dosing switches. On the brighter side I think the other one is relatively intact so I should be able to copy the wiring from that one.
I will take a decent camera along with me next time and get some more photos
looks like the two group, volumetric version of mine...
Mine is an L4, and the L6/7 were volumetric, not sure what the dual groups models were..
Z11 Zircon or Omicron I think, on my Z9s I have had Mocopans labels were on the plate where yours is and the Rancilio one was beside it *:-/ You might still find it inside when you drop the covers off.
Another rebuilt!!! Cool. If you can document it, take photos we would all be interested in your progess here. Also a heap of information about rebuilds on CS. Looks like a great project rebuild. Is this your first?
It might be a Zircon, the Omnicroms I have seen have a separate omnicrom badge on the left side which mine doesnt have. I have downloaded the parts manual, but there is one difference I have found between mine and the one shown in the Manual. Mine has mercury switches rather than a regular pressurstat, more like a diagram on a Z9 I have.
Yes this will be my first major rebuild. I have dabbled with small lever machines before but nothing that draws this much power or has so many wires or parts. Its all a bit daunting. I am thinking my first move will have to be to repair the rodent damage to the dose wiring and to disconnect two of the elements so i can test it out. Its in my Nanas shed and she doesnt have a dedicated circuit to power it in its full state. once I can get power to it I can make an assessment and see what else if anything is wrong.
Z11 Omicron 2 good reliable machine but runs hot
Ok so I have some time this weekend and I was planning on disconnecting two of the elements. I have read various posts both on this site and others about people doing this but one thing thats a bit unclear is if it makes any difference which ones I disconnect.
I have attached a photo and would be interested in anyones feedback with experience in this sort of thing.
I am assuming the blue wire that bridges all three terminals on the left is the neutral and the red/brown wire (bottom right) and the black wire (top right) are the two actives. I have traced the two active wires back to the mercury switches and was thinking that I should be able to just remove the black wire and bridge on the two upper right terminals and remove it from the mercury switch, just leaving the red/brown wire connected.
Would this be sufficient or is it advisable to disconnect the second active wire all the way back to the main power switch?
I know theres bound to be a rash of "liability" type emails stating that licensed electricians should make these modifications. I understand the risks and will take all possible precautions, but I wish to do all the work myself.
Ok all the wires that go from the main motherboard (not sure what youd call it on an espresso machine) have been repaired. not the best job in the world but enough to make them all safe and allow me to (eventually) power up the machine and test whats working and whats not.
If it turns out that the dosers work I will probably just replace all the dosing wires.
Next up I disconnected all the wires and bridges to the additional elements, leaving only the bottom two (neutral and the red active wire) connected. I removed the black wire back to the ceramic connector on the mercury switches. I need a new plug and some reassurance before I take the next step and fire it up.
Heres a picture of the element as it now stands. Any opinions?
GET AN ELECTRICIAN IN ASAP..
The condition of the elements need to be checked as well as the wiring..
The terminals look suss...
I would not even attempt to apply power with out fully checking and mega testing the whole system..
Take it or leave it.
Getting a Megger test done is a really good idea, can save you time and effort and reassures you the element is safe to use.
Good luck with the rebuild.
Im in a bit of a catch 22 situation here. I really was hoping to power the machine up to make an assessment as to if its worth rebuilding. If the element is cactus I dont really mind replacing it but if all the dosing switches and computer board need replacing then it may be a little too costly for me to proceed. If I disconnected all the boiler cables and only turned the power switch to the first position would that give me power to the electronics so that I could test them? Or does the machine need to come up to temp before the dosing switches work? I have also put an earth leakage gfci box between the machine and the wall for a bit more safety. Just curious AM what doesnt look right about the terminals? They are pretty clean and the ceramic looks to be in perfect Nick. Also where do you go to get a mega test done and whats it worth? I did some resistance and continuity tests on the element and things seemed ok but obviously I will take advice from someone who has experience and knows what the hell theyre doing
Ok so I couldnt leave it alone....
I just removed the element, its kind of black and crusty so I guess it will need a descale. Should I descale it before i get it tested or should i not waste my time in case its stuffed?
Also I have read about people having problems with their elements after descaling so is there anything I should know, any tricks or things to look out for?
Yes yes and yes...
Ya pics are all I can go off. Standard test does not yell the whole story .. Just ask lacehim
So would you use a standard citric acid bath being sure not to submerge the terminals etc?
Any suggestions out there as to strength of bath, length of time?
I am guessing im going to need to mix up about 10 litres to get this thing submerged
As for the mega test, is it something that a regular sparky can do or is it an exotic piece of specialty equipment only used by heating type workshops.... any fellow CSers out there who have one on the lower north shore and feel like helping me out?
Do not submerge the entire element in the descaling solution, keep the terminal end dry. I stuffed 2 by submerging. Do a search on AMs posts there should be most if not all the info you need.Also I have read about people having problems with their elements after descaling so is there anything I should know, any tricks or things to look out for?
I would get the element meggered before the descale, you could be cleaning it for no reason.
thats what i was wondering but I thought AM was saying "yes" to descaling before testing. I looked inside the boiler with a torch and I must say its pretty nasty in there. I think i might be buying some Vanish from coffee parts this week.
Still interested in if I could power up the electronics as long as I have safely terminated the leads to the element and only turned the machine to the "fill" setting. I am really scared that the main board maybe fried. I have no idea why this machine was taken out of service and so its really just a matter of testing each thing in turn.
YES with a mega and an understanding of what effects and impacts on what..Originally Posted by 08283B2627490 link=1273915242/19#19 date=1275196789
A simple 5 cent part can F$#@ ya whole machine AND YOU.
NO... YES... IN general NO.... The issue is cleaning and descaling etc can reduce the sheath thiskness etc.. Thus it could pass / ya then clean / put into unit and turn on... Not testing again and BANG..Originally Posted by 08283B2627490 link=1273915242/19#19 date=1275196789
There are way to many variables witha refurb and cleaning etc etc..
If in doubt toss it out $$$$ but often safer.
Have been asked to comment and staited - Looks OK.
Never given the full story as said person mad lots of assumptions.. Unit fried... I go the BLAME... Unit had been cleaned and buffed and splatter marks and other carbon stains from earler issues had been removed.. In hind sight simple... When the data is not available to ya... Guess at best.
Ask AlexTom.. While he has some understanding... A 30min drive and drag his Faema over to me if he has a problem.. I use all 5 senses and a few extras in sorting out a fault... May be 5 min with hands on...
Never solved over the phone; when the other person communicates at a different level / no test equipment OR skill set that are relevant.
I still say... REBUILD =
A: Electrician with Coffee machine background..
B: If ya not qualified or do not have instant access to one; do not try a rebuild
Now if ya were playing with Gas and talking about swaping over lines / gass bottles / adjusting jets / adjusting gauges and re plumbing the feed and heater lines.. EVERY one would jump in and shut this down as being too dangerious...
Gass and Electricity will do the same thing and in some ways... Electricty can be more forgiving.. BUT THEY BOTH KILL...
Do what ya want to the guts of a machine..
BUT DO NOT EVER APPLY POWER = UNLESS it has been FULLY CHECKED OUT BY AN ELECTRICIAN.. AND been passed as SAFE.
Sorry for the excessive gramma and speeling fopars bloody i-brick.. Need an i-pad to wrap it in to soak up the toxic components as I crush both pieces of crap; prior to binnning..
All GJ stafg should have an Ipad and ibrick so they can be recognised at a dixtance.
No test gear / No Lience / No Quals = Hire a Coffee Tec.. Another new franchise.. Partneres with Hire a Hubby. No special extras tossed in..
No matter what the price :o
Dont worry everyone AM sometimes sounds like this in person :-XOriginally Posted by 755A53514679555A55535159515A40340 link=1273915242/21#21 date=1275198993
Ten things in the processor unit (brain) wanting to get out and little bits of each come out at once
This is now worse as he is giving up the coffin nails
:-* :-* :-*
ok third update for the day.
I realised once I looked inside the boiler that I could never power it up and run water through the groups or anything as there is so much scale inside the boiler that it would probably cause more harm than good.
So reluctantly I am removing the boiler. I say reluctantly because I am still very much overwhelmed by the task, specifically remembering where all the bits fit back together. I have taken lots of photos (which I will upload soon) and made lots of drawings and notes but i am still nervous as hell.
I will order some vanish on Monday and get this rebuild underway properly. Also planning on talking to the sparky at work tomorrow and see if he knows a place where I can get the megger test done.
All sparkies MUST be able to do a test for earth and insulation as defined by AS3760..
Tis all that is needed as to checking the unit out..
In the old days the test equipment was a analouge device and a trade name of Megga... Brain cells not working so well at present..
Thus may today still talk of a megga test... Burp.... SStops shaking...
In fact the trouble shooting part is the insulation test at 250 and 500 V
Sorry, but being the pedantic bugger that I am with respect to matters electrical and testing there-of, the instrument being referred to is properly called a Megger - The name of the company who produced the original test instruments, amongst others.....Originally Posted by 654A43415669454A45434149414A50240 link=1273915242/24#24 date=1275213016
Company website here.... http://www.megger.com/au/index.php
Only qualified and licensed personnel should be permitted to undertake such testing as required under S.A.A. Regulations, as mentioned by AM above.... 8-)
Ok lets put the electric aside and talk about scale...
I have lots of it. so much in fact that I am starting to think it was the reason the machine was retired. it is very dark brown and looks a bit like rust but I guess it cant be as the boiler is brass, i must admit I was expecting the scale to be white but like I said this is my first major rebuild.
So I have ordered some vanish from Coffee parts which is what I was going to treat the boiler with, my question now is will the vanish remove the chrome on the outside of the boiler? if it will I guess Ill have to block up all the pipe holes in the boiler with something (would kids plastiscene work?) and fill it up with vanish. As always suggestions opinions or words of encouragement would be welcome.
I used citric acid and activated descaler on mine, the outside of the boiler had copper looking coating after descaling but it was easily removed with a scourer pad.
On your machine, was the original finish to the outside of the boiler chrome? Sorry, I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing.
Mine is silver (chrome?), but the finish is a little pitted and im just a bit worried about if the Vanish might strip it all off or worse just some of it.
Unfortunately I have a week to wait until the order gets shipped from coffeeparts. So next weekend will be a bit of a loss.
Im about to descale a chrome HW outlet from my rebuild. I will let you know if there is any effect to the chrome if you want.
Re your electrical follow the advice above and get it checked out or you might do more damage than good.
I wouldnt say mine was chrome more like electroplated or something of that nature. Heres a before and after.
Quite a lot of manufacturers Nickel Plate the Boiler(s) and other componentry under the bonnet as an aid in reducing the incidence of corrosion with copper and brass fittings, etc....
Pretty sure thats what your Boiler is plated with "jaymad".... Chrome is applied via an electroplating process too, by the way ;)
Cheers Mal. I always thought it was a bath dip process. :-[Originally Posted by 4C61656964080 link=1273915242/31#31 date=1275297516
I would suggest the Nickel Plate option as Mal indicated...Originally Posted by 7F697E6C717A757E1B0 link=1273915242/32#32 date=1275299184
Chrome has its uses and incurs a cost... The boiler being internal etc suggest that Nickel Plate would be teh preferred option.
Re the coating, mine had that sorts coating too. It looked brass and when I dipped it in vanish the boiler went silver in an instant. Where can you get that done? I did notice that Wega seem to have a silver boiler without the coating mind you. Should I bother recoating it?
Aaron, re the vanish cleaner and chrome I would use caution and only use it for short periods where you are around to start with as a test.
I cleaned the HW tap parts and they came out fine. Didnt leave them in too long, about 30 mins. The screwdriver I left in there is now not silver anymore, the coating all peeled off, but it was in there the longest. Also tried a plate that covers the element in there to get rid of some old scale. I think it might be aluminium because its not very heavy and I got distracted and left it in there a little long (hey I was hungry). It went black! Oooops. Might have to sand that back to get it looking nice again but its internal anyway and wont be seen.
Well I got home a bit early last night and couldnt resist have a bit of a fiddle with the machine before dinner. I managed to undo all the bolts on the boiler with the exception of one - a large one on the left side of the machine that goes to the bottom of the site glass. Its fairly corroded and after a few goes with the spanner I could feel the pipe flex and decided to leave it alone until I can come up with a more rational and gentle way of unsticking it. I might try heating it up a bit and see if I can loosen it that way. My biggest fear is that I will break the threaded nipple off the boiler so I guess slowly and carefully is the way to go.
Its just a bit frustrating as it is the only thing stopping me from removing the boiler.
Try something like WD40 or similar. Others might have better suggestions. If your not sure how it dismantles, post up a photo. Your doing a complete strip down so any stuff you use now will be cleaned off by Vanish.
I agree with Lacehim. On mine it was the hot water line, copper had fused to the fitting that connects the boiler from some sort of scale(I think), I was impatient and tried to force it. Luckily I had a backup but it had the same problem however I sprayed it with WD40 and let it soak overnight. Next day I was able to march it out... left,right,left,right...or...loosen,tighten,loosen ,tighten.Originally Posted by 092426202D2C28450 link=1273915242/36#36 date=1275436342
Be patient and you will get it out.
OK, I just heard from the sparky at work, the element is officially dead which is a bit of a disappointment.
On the good side, I managed to get the last nut loose last night and removed the boiler. I Opened up the end and scooped out several hand fulls of scale and junk. Now I am waiting for the Vanish from Coffeeparts to give the boiler a good soak and clean. I took loads of photos which I hope to upload when I get home tonight.
Please ask him for more info...Originally Posted by 19392A3736580 link=1273915242/38#38 date=1275631679
1: Element open cct or breach between teh element and sheath..
It is / can be an important fact to be aware of...
I will find out on monday when I get the element back exactly what the problem was. In the mean time, here are some pictures of the pull down.
You can see the rodent damaged dosing wires, in the second shot, as well as some choice scale pieces when I removed the end of the boiler
Here are the better scale chunks
I also managed to take one of the Groups off, I wanted to descale it but I have a problem, the solenoid at the base of the group screws off with two screws, but you cant get a screw driver in there as the heads are blocked by the solenoid body. You can see then at the to of the second photo
Part of me thinks I should just submerse the group in a shallow bath and leave the solenoid out of the water but I know this could all go wrong quite easily.
unscrew the bit of pipe on the bottom of the solenoid at the bottom where the 3 way valve shoots the water.
then you can undo that hexagon nut that holds on the solenoid body.
this lets you take it off so you can undo that screw.
i had the same issue as i thought the solenoid was all one piece but its two, the outer electrical bit and the inner metal tube bit.
be gentle and try to use two correct spanners on any nuts etc....
I dont have a spanner that is narrow enough to fit that silver hex nut on top of the solenoid body. Its only about 3mm wide. I may have to buy an extra narrow spanner.
The pipe on the bottom screws off easily but the hex nut is a real bastard. Im going to leave it alone for an hour and take another look at it.
take of the pipe then the nut where top arrow points
i often turn the spanner on it end to get in there
sorry for short post got mates coming for lunch etc
once you take of the brown "body" you get this see that hex nut on the pointy end take that one off :)
Got it I saw that nut but was too scared to undo it as I was concerned that part wasnt really supposed to come apart
I spoke to the electrician this morning regarding the test on the element.
He said there were no shorts or breaks in any of the elements but the resistance reading was half of what it should be.
I must admit this is all getting a little too technical for my limited understanding. anyone care to comment?