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Thread: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

  1. #1
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    New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    After reading through mountains of reviews and forum posts, I would like some member feedback.

    I have been looking at the Jura ENA5 and also Izzo Alex Duetto II w/ a grinder. Being 2 very different machines this makes the decision process a little harder. Financially I am not too concerned, however, is the price difference worth it for our needs? Or is the Izzo overkill?

    The machine will only do a few coffees each day, a couple each for my wife and I, plus any guests. I prefer a short black or with only a splash of milk, while my wife and guests often prefer a latte, flat white, cappuccino. So milk is of some importance.

    There is also the ease of use factor for my wife, and the cleaning aspect when using fresh beans. I am currently trying to talk her out of the Nespresso option.

    Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    A_M
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 74535A5B595842360 link=1283661340/0#0 date=1283661340
    I am currently trying to talk her out of the Nespresso option.
    Tread with care ;)

    If her mind has been made up...

    You will need to show and demonstrate some of teh others systems such that, she makes the decision to change what is wanted..

    If not and you force the issue, then regardless of which might be better - Any issues in the slightest, will be YOUR FAULT and YOU will have to manage teh fallout ;)

    Wife : Coffee Machine (hard call ;D )

    Best of luck in what ever you decide.. Gilkatho Online is a sponsor and they may be able to provide some extra detail.. They have some great stuff on their web site.

    As to teh other unit.. A more traditional system and plenty of info around...




  3. #3
    Senior Member MeanzBeanz's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Welcome to CS Belmont *8-)

    Lots of information here...make the search function your friend.

    Update your profile so we can see your location. Depending on where you are I would suggest a visit to a CS sponsor or three (see them over to the left) and a hands on play with some machines that fit your requirements. As milk based drinks are a factor one with good steaming ability would be a good idea.
    Once you and your wife have sampled some quality coffees that the right machine and grinder can produce it will make the selection task that much easier.

    As you state that fianancially you are not concerned I would buy quality, buy once and not have to worry about upgradeitis for a long time.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Thanks guys,

    I shouldnt have too much trouble with machine selection as she is aware of the taste fatigue that a few of our friends have with the Nespresso machine! It is more the convenience factor.

    I am going to check out Talk Coffee and the Rocket Giotto / Izzo when I get a chance.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Hi Belmont, I started looking at superauto saecos and delonghis, then Ena5 or Nespresso types, then Silvia. I did involve my wife in all steps of the process, now shes fully on board. With more information at every step, the decision narrowed further (and pushed the price up) Finally arrived at VBM Junior after talking to Chris at Talk Coffee. He does a great job of helping you work out what machine fits best with your requirements, and doesnt try and sell you his most expensive machine. I couldnt be happier with my coffee. Main thing to remember is "fresh is best".

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 664148494B4A50240 link=1283661340/0#0 date=1283661340
    There is also the ease of use factor for my wife, and the cleaning aspect when using fresh beans.I am currently trying to talk her out of the Nespresso option.

    Any suggestions greatly appreciated. *
    I say this with authority
    Cleaning is harder with the Nespresso machines and the Super Autos

    KK

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 183F363735342E5A0 link=1283661340/0#0 date=1283661340
    is the price difference worth it for our needs? *

    The machine will only do a few coffees each day, a couple each for my wife and I, plus any guests. *I
    Ease of use is important since youll be using it every day (and buying ingredients, cleaning, etc). Given that investment of time, will you be satisfied with coffee that just tastes "okay"?

    I think Nespressos (& SuperAutos) are a step above instant... But you cant get proper cappucinos with velvety milk, or perceive a range of flavours like chocolate & berries & malt (not just "coffee" flavour).

    To me, nespresso machines fill the gap if you cant get to a decent cafe... But HX machines bring the Cafe to your home. Its a completely different ball game.

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    TC
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Hi Belmont and welcome.

    Id say that they are chalk and cheese ;)

    The superautos can be very unreiable and are prone to failure and/or high service costs. When at their best, superautos will deliver a coffe equivalent to a pretty average HX or dual boiler coffee. The superautos do require less work, but for me, they dont measure up.

    Just this morning I saw a commercial superauto produce seafoam covered swill which could have been just milk. The presence of coffee was barely visible- and then it was Mokador anyway ::)

    Use a more manual machine well with good coffee, correctly ground and good technique and you will produce a better result than most cafes. Is it neccessary to spend the $$$ on an Izzo? Nope. You will get a great result out of any well setup machine. The key is to buy a good one from someone who is not just after the sale of a box.

    Dual boilers, PIDs and rotary pumps are great, but by no means compulsory for great coffee.

    Looking forward to meeting you.

    Chris

  9. #9
    Senior Member bennett's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6154595E6A765A53535050350 link=1283661340/7#7 date=1283734537
    Dual boilers, PIDs and rotary pumps are great, but by no means compulsory for great coffee.
    This isnt a criticism, just an observation. I find it amazing the number of people who come to research on Coffeesnobs and end up thinking they need a dual boiler. Like Chris said, they are great, and maybe one day I might get one - the IZZO looks like a beautiful machine, however you can get amazing coffee out of a Hx machine or even a single boiler. I guess people just want to avoid the possible need to upgrade in the future.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Guess the logic is if one boiler is good then two of em must be twice as good. ;)
    My thoughts are two boilers mean double the maintenance, seems one of em gives the average person enough trouble so why buy a machine with two of em. :)

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 585F54545F4E4E3A0 link=1283661340/8#8 date=1283738034
    This isnt a criticism, just an observation. I find it amazing the number of people who come to research on Coffeesnobs and end up thinking they need a dual boiler. Like Chris said, they are great, and maybe one day I might get one - the IZZO looks like a beautiful machine, however you can get amazing coffee out of a Hx machine or even a single boiler. I guess people just want to avoid the possible need to upgrade in the future. *
    Its been a few years now since Chris at Talk Coffee discussed with me my needs and wants regarding a coffee machine and grinder.

    I had almost made up my mind on the Silvia and Rocky combo but something wasnt quite right.

    More discussions led to me choosing the Expobar Leva (HX).
    The Expobare Minore (dual boiler) was discussed but discounted by me.

    All these years down the track and the machine has kept me in excellent coffee and no theres been sign of upgraditis at all.

    Work out your needs and wants; when you find the machine that best fit those criteria it should last you a long time.

  12. #12
    Senior Member sidewayss's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Gday Belmont,
    You and your wife,s goal is to have the best coffee possible.
    If possible, a gentle persuation by easing her into some simple good and clean techniques of grinding, dosing, tamping and brewing, knock the grounds into the knock box... you might never know, with time, it gets into a routine and rythum a good manual machine is not so hard after all.
    Regardless of you and your wife,s choice, freshness is a key. Good quality ingredients, and you,re halfway there.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Yep I think it centers around the "upgraditis" tendencies of forum posters... So many people come here asking "what should I buy next?"
    If you buy an HX, will you want to upgrade to a double boiler later??
    Very doubtful.. Unless youre roasting your own beans & constantly adjusting brew temps & pressures, a double boiler is unncessary at home.

    I came here with a budget of $500 and ended up spending $3k..but so happy I did!

    A quick check of various CS forums reveals that, in the <$1500 categories, most threads are about problems...lots of horror stories. Whereas in the $1500-3000 category, its all about "which machine should I buy?" following up with "I love my new machine!" (and then you dont hear from them again, ever...I had a laugh)

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F6861606263790D0 link=1283661340/0#0 date=1283661340
    There is also the ease of use factor for my wife, and the cleaning aspect when using fresh beans.I am currently trying to talk her out of the Nespresso option.
    I think what youd need to emphasise is that making coffee with a HX or DB machine really is not difficult at all. *I dare say most of us actually find the process quite enjoyable.
    Nespresso machines make very average coffee for a very high price - calculate the price per cup with pods compared to using fresh beans and you might be surprised.
    We rented a Saeco superauto for a while where I used to work. *Coffee was barely ok with fresh beans, milk texture from the auto frother was dreadful and cleaning was a bit of a pain. *Boss ended up replacing it with a nespresso - easier to use but worse coffee.
    also once youre comfortable with the manual *process, youll easily be able to make 2 single shot milk based drinks in under 3 minutes which I doubt is much slower than a nespresso, since they need to do one at a time...

    I cant really comment on the Jura, although I did have a client once who had one. *I attempted to use it but theyd thrown away the milk steaming attachment and reprogrammed it to deliver a 200ml shot :P leaving just enough room to top up with cold milk like instant. *Next time I went there it was gone, apparently people there didnt like the coffee it made... strangely enough ;D

    Geoff

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 725E5E415443070862310 link=1283661340/13#13 date=1284007489
    Nespresso machines make very average coffee for a very high price
    My son in law had one for a couple of months, the coffee was way below average and yes it was expensive, he now has a Silvia.
    My feeling is instant and pod coffee are both crap, just different types of crap. ;)

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Thanks guys, Ive booked a time with my local non-sponsor supplier this week to have a look at the Giotto Rocket.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1E3930313332285C0 link=1283661340/15#15 date=1284346685
    Thanks guys, Ive booked a time with my local non-sponsor supplier this week to have a look at the Giotto Rocket.
    Thats a shame Belmont, as I know we better them on aspects of the deal....You may well find it worth a drive or we can ship to you overnight.

    I trained a client about a year ago on one of their machines. She had received no training or support materials whatsoever... In addition, the simple stuff on a bench test such as a pressure check had not been done. ::)



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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Nothing set in stone yet.

    I was actually going to call you to see if you are around on Thursday morning?

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Belmont given that you even considered an Izzo Alex this early in the journey it sounds like you are someone that likes to go all out and buy the best at the start. The Izzo is certainly one of the best home coffee machines out there and no doubt you have heard that the juras are one of the best superautos. I would be pretty certain in saying that if you buy a jura you will be back on the net or here trying to learn how to get the best out of it. Thing is I would almost guarantee that you will eventually come to the conclusion that you chose the wrong machine and inevitably upgrade to an HX or dual boiler machine.

    Unless you have an absolute desire to buy the best an Izzo isnt necessary and some would argue not suitable. An HX machine will be slightly cheaper and serve you equally as well. The reason why I say that some would argue a dual boiler isnt suitable is that they really are better for high turnover. In an HX the brew water is heated instantly, a dual boiler the brew water is always at temp. Some would argue that water shouldnt be held at high temp or it affects the flavor. If that truly is the case then you would have to brew off a fair bit of water to make sure the brew water is fresh. I think the jury is still out on this one and I cant confirm or deny it but I thought I would let you know all the same.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Thanks mate, Im making the long trek to Talk Coffee in the morning. Ive got my eye on 3 machines and think it might come down to bench space that influences my decision after doing a few measurements today.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 47787E796463524F627461680D0 link=1283661340/18#18 date=1284425976
    *The reason why I say that some would argue a dual boiler isnt suitable is that they really are better for high turnover. *In an HX the brew water is heated instantly, a dual boiler the brew water is always at temp. *Some would argue that water shouldnt be held at high temp or it affects the flavor.
    The specifics of the machine need to be taken into account here. The better domestic dual boiler designs have a far smaller boiler to ensure that there is good water turnover. Check the specs of the Izzo and the LaSpaziale Vivaldi II. The second thing to consider is if there is a difference, are you able to taste it? *:-?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F6861606263790D0 link=1283661340/19#19 date=1284541573
    Thanks mate, Im making the long trek to Talk Coffee in the morning.
    8-) See you soon Belmont.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Just thought I share that I ended up with a Giotto Premium Plus and and M4D from Talk Coffee.

    I managed to have a quick play around with it this morning and am looking forward to learning how to drive it over the weekend.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 63444D4C4E4F55210 link=1283661340/21#21 date=1284720192
    Just thought I share that I ended up with a Giotto Premium Plus and and M4D from Talk Coffee.

    I managed to have a quick play around with it this morning and am looking forward to learning how to drive it over the weekend.
    Thanks for your support Belmont,

    I wish you many happy cups! 8-)

    Chris

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    Coffee+carbon=heaven Mono's Avatar
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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 476069686A6B71050 link=1283661340/21#21 date=1284720192
    Just thought I share that I ended up with a Giotto Premium Plus and and M4D from Talk Coffee.
    Nice choice belmont :)..........enjoy the journey.

    Steve.

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    Re: New machine selection - are these chalk and cheese?

    Quote Originally Posted by 674049484A4B51250 link=1283661340/21#21 date=1284720192
    Just thought I share that I ended up with a Giotto Premium Plus and and M4D
    Nice
    Many years of quality coffee await you

    KK



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