no offence to breville and this is just my own opinion, but i would think the expobar would outlast the breville multiple times over
I have a question regarding peoples perceptions regarding the longevity of both machines. Is it likely that if both machines are cared for as per manufactures specs then they should last as long as one another?
Would the Expobar last longer due to less electronics components etc.
no offence to breville and this is just my own opinion, but i would think the expobar would outlast the breville multiple times over
I have been thinking very similar things,in the search of a new machine after running a cafes for 13 years and enjoyed coffee everyday at work , just when i finish(sold cafe) my EM6910 gives up(collar & steam gone!) I have been watching the threads on the BES900 a bit to see problems that are occurring in the first lot.I am feeling a bit torn between trying to get a great 2nd hand HX machine or go with unknown reliability of such a good sounding machine?
after adding a number sunbeam machines and 1 breville to land fill over the last 10 years I purchased a seconhand DIADEMA Junior Plus. Cost was about the same as the breville 900 but I hope to get a good 10 years or more of service out of it.
been using an Expobar Leva HX (which I PIDed and added a brew manometer) for more than 1 year without the smallest issue.
Whenever I decide to upgrade, I would do to a Brewtus with rotary pump plumbed in.
I think you should consider 2 things: the likelihood of failure of the components, and the cost (and complexity) to fix/replace them.
A good HX will be made to be serviceable - anyone with espresso machine servicing experience should be able to replace parts and fix them, to keep it running for 10-20 years. Any tinkerer good with plumbing / electronics should be able to do the same at home, perhaps a bit slower. With good care the boiler can be kept in top condition, and the most expensive part to replace will probably be the control board, if ever.
A BES900 I cant comment on because Ive never touched or taken one apart. Just consider the amount of electronics, how easy you can buy parts yourself, how complicated they are/arent to take apart and put back together, and the types of metals used in construction.
Unfortunately no-one has a time machine, so its best guess (some guesses better than others!) In the meantime I took the same as Ale - bought a 2nd hand Giotto, and my next will be a rotary pump plumbed in machine. Beware that this wasnt without its problems, as Ive just discovered a few hundred $$ worth of servicing to be done...
not to mention the Expobar is $1000 more - not quite comparing apples with apples.Originally Posted by 77534959525B3A0 link=1318246621/1#1 date=1318248658
Originally Posted by 2C242C2B2127450 link=1318246621/5#5 date=1318289054
Not completely true... but it is the original topic.
A better comparison (which this thread has turned into) is 2nd hand hx for the same money as new breville. I dont think anyone in their right mind would buy a 2nd hand breville unless it was from a fellow coffeesnob and its history was very certain
how so?* Breville RRP $1500, Minore IV $2599, $2805, and $2499 on the first three Australian responses from google.Originally Posted by 70544E5E555C3D0 link=1318246621/6#6 date=1318332690
I know this thread has compared 2nd hand HXs around the $1500 mark, but you have to consider that a machine that costs $2500+ new (and was only released recently so cant be old even if it is second hand) is bound to be different from a machine that costs $1500 new, In My Humble Opinion :D
If it were me, I would buy a second hand $2500 HX for $1500 any day over a new Breville (and Im a Breville advocate!), but thats just me.* I would also inspect the second hand HX very very closely, including taking off the mushroom, hot water tip, case, have a good look at the internal fittings, and do a complete boiler empty and inspect the water... (speaking from experience ::) )
even though they are at different price points, they still compete in specs and performance somewhat. And even though the expobar is more expensive, I would still say it is better value than the Breville.
If you were buying a new station wagon, its still possible to compare the commodore at 35k or a passat at 50k, just all about value i reckon
not to mention the expobar is one sexy looking machine compared to the breville!
actually the collar is not an expensive fix : the part is ~$50Originally Posted by 4B5551545D410F00380 link=1318246621/2#2 date=1318249568
Hi brettly, i have been checking out how much and how to fix it myself,not sure if im upskilled enough yet, found out it is still under 5 year pump warranty so im gonna send it off to get that checked.If its not the pump its not covered so then i will take it to the garage and start learning ;D.I think Ive convinced the better half to get the BES900,there is a lot of electronics in them but they dont seem to be having to many major probs yet.Originally Posted by 39293E2F2F293E3A39225B0 link=1318246621/11#11 date=1319435209
I think Ive convinced the better half to get the BES900,there is a lot of electronics in them but they dont seem to be having to many major probs yet.
I just bought the Breveille BES900XL and it indeed performed very well to brew coffee. The only issue is the high OPV setting in many earlier manufactured units but it can be fixed quite easily either sending it to the service center or by the owner himself. The interior of the unit looks neat and well arranged. The PID control is very stable even after many shots continuously.
I have the Breville DB and am very happy with it as it makes excelent coffee and does the milk nice and silky also, it suited my budget and for the amount of use (3 or 4 espressos and maybe 1 latte) I couldnt justify double the price for a machine. I would love to one day get a Giotto or VBM but at the moment its not possible so I hope the BDB will last the distance.
I had the breville before i had my expobar minore, you might be thinking you didnt have it long and you are right i didnt I always wanted the expobar but brought the breville when it first came out and was in the right position to sell and buy the expobar.
Like the way we all like our coffee my following statment is just my opinion. I cant not believe the difference in quaility of not only the coffee but the thought that has gone into the expobar. I understand there is a big price difference however but i like the styling and the look of the machine. I also like the ergonomics of the machine too. Oh and yes it makes a great coffee. I do understand its the way you make your coffee not the machine you use, however a good machine can help in many ways. :)
If you just consider the performnace vs. cost, Breville DB should be placed on the top of your wish list. I am not saying Breville DB can beat other decent machines but just look from what the price I paid and what coffee I got.
When I have sufficient budget to get one VBM, I will get one. But now I just very enjoy the Breville DB. I will just forget how long the unit can last. I believe 5 years later even the VBM will be upgraded for a more powerful design. At that time, definitely I will buy the VBM.
Hi Nick OY, i think you are spot on with this and have convinced the BH to order one, but i have always wanted one of those coffee machines that look and feel(but not act) like a part of history, so one day ill get there....maybe both haha ;DOriginally Posted by 5C5B51595D4B535C55320 link=1318246621/16#16 date=1322889198
Hi Smiley78,Originally Posted by 4C5256535A4608073F0 link=1318246621/17#17 date=1323341323
I admit that my early version Breville DB OVPs calibration issue does affect my thought to the machine but it is running very well to pour very great shots after I adjusted the OPV to 9.5 bar.
I do have some worry about the longevity of the unit but if I think of other same performance units cost me about 2 ~ 3 times of cost of Breville DB and this unit can survive 2 ~ 4 years, the Breville DB is really a very good choice.
I opened up my Breville unit and looked at the interior layout, I think there was not major design issue only the plastic OPV is placed too closed to the steam boiler and I twisted it away from the boiler to prevent hot thermal cycling from aging the OPV.
Another reason to choose the Breville unit is its stainless steel boilers which are more easy to de-scale and maintain for sanitary concerns. The HX machines are not possible to maintan regularly without professional technician to de-compose the boilers within 2 years.
Hello NickOriginally Posted by 36313B33372139363F580 link=1318246621/18#18 date=1324831001
I must disagree with this. Scale deposits are a health risk for any machine, but a stainless boiler isnt any more, or less, sanitary than a brass boiler.
Descaling the DB900 will always be a job for a technician, while descaling a HX can be a job performed at home by the owner.
Hi Dennis,Originally Posted by 7A5B5050574D3E0 link=1318246621/19#19 date=1324858812
The brass should be more easily to oxidite than stainless steel. I saw some videos on the Internet regarding the corrosion of brass boiliers.
As for the descaling HX and dual boiler machines, some units can be done by the owners but some cannot. It depends on whether the boilers can be filled 100% with water or not. Sometimes, to fully refill the boilers with water needs to "hack" the water level detectors.
I am not sure if my understanding is correct but you are right Breville DB is recommended to be serviced by the Breville technician. However, I live in Taiwan and no such service available here, so I must consider how to extend the unit lifetime till the boilers really need to descale.
Nick said: "..Another reason to choose the Brevile unit is its stainless steel boilers which are more easy to de-scale and maintain for sanitary concerns...."
Not really sure what this is about, and it depends on what you mean. Do you mean that the design of the boilers in that machine, irrespective of the material they are made of, lends itself to easier descaling.... OR,
do you mean that stainless steel is easier descaled than copper (dunno where the brass thing came from wrt this topic, Minore I believe has copper boilers with perhaps, brass end plates and the end plates are from memory (?) at the top where any scale build up will have no real effect and doesnt matter if there is no proper descaling done there....).
If it is the former, that could be accepted, but if it is the latter, I dont know how anyone can come to that conclusion because either way, someone still has to go through a descaling process, stainless or copper....and I dont know whether anyone could measure that copper might have taken longer to descale, to the same extent, as the stainless ?
Anyone that has gone to the extent of reading up on, and attempting to descale their HX or semi commercial dual boiler machines should be able to work out simply enough how to fill the boilers to 100% for the operation.* :)
And FWIW, my reply to the topic would be:
Anyone that can afford the more expensive machine would be mad to buy the cheaper machine and
Anyone that can only afford the cheaper machine should only buy the cheaper one.
In the long run, the more expensive machine should be easier all round to maintain and last far longer, during which period 25 revisions (gross exaggeration perhaps (?)) render the cheaper machine obsolete and only repairable by the agent for the brand.
Sorry about my poor English to confuse you.
What I meant was the "copper" boiler is more eaily to oxidize than a stainless boiler before the limescale is formed.
I can afford to buy +3000 USD machie but am interested in "low end" dual boilers machine as well. The reason I choose Breville DB is to know how good it can be but not how bad it will be. When the unit is not repairable, I will dump it and upgrade to Izzo Alex Duetto II.
My 65 Faema e-61 doesnt have a stainless boiler (copper and brass) and is now well on the way to a 50th birthday. It will be interesting to see if anything with stainless boilers goes 50 years. There are reported cases of pitting in Synesso and other stainless boilers as well.
I am more than happy to have copper and/or brass in boilers ;)
Gosh no need to apologise Nick, and thanks for clarifying* ;)
Stainless Steel in large boiler machines is also prone to cracking (more so than with copper).
I really dont think the stainless steel VS copper or brass thing is at all relevant to the discussion which I feel, is more to do with type of model / machine overall VS the price of each VS what any particular individual is looking for :)
Hi Fresh_Coffee,Originally Posted by 4B7F687E65524E626B6B68680D0 link=1318246621/24#24 date=1324878624
Please refer the following videos. The first one demos a descaling process and the second one explains the "copper" boiler is very easy to oxidize after descaling, so an acid-base neutralization after descaling a copper boiler is very important to slow down the oxidization of copper metal.
Stainless steel boilers have no oxidization concern.
Tell that to stainless in the presence of heat and chloride ions- common in espresso machines.Originally Posted by 3532383034223A353C5B0 link=1318246621/25#25 date=1324949000
I think were well off topic here and that perhaps you might be best to start a new thread if you want to discuss perceived rates of boiler oxidation and any relationship to descaling processes.* :-?
For mine, Ill defer to Attilio as he has substantial experience in both commercial and domestic machines.
Back to the topic- The Expobar boilers will far outlast the Breville boilers as they are much more substantial pieces of engineering. You need only pick one up.
Attilio correctly stated that if you have circa $1.5k to spend, you can afford a Breville and should buy one. Its a good appliance. If you have $2.5k to spend, you are in the zone of true espresso machines, all of which will be around long after the demise of the Breville and all of which will hold their value far better- so buy an espresso machine. Bottom line still hasnt changed. You still gets what you pays for. ;)
copper oxidises, so what?