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Thread: Giotto Extraction advice

  1. #1
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    Giotto Extraction advice

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi,

    I now have a naked PF and am using it with a double basket. Grinding with a Breville smart grinder I am finding I have a consistant pattern of extraction that has a dead spot on the right side of the PF.

    The naked PF is slightly more loose than the Giotto one so needs to be turned more to tighten in position. So if the group was a clock the dead spot occurs at about 2-3 oclock.

    I use an ezytamp for consistant tamping, am grinding into the pf in two lots (2 taps after each), and level off the coffee with a straight edge (also tried a small mound).

    With the shower screen off the water appears to flow evenly so Im sure its my technique ::).

    How do you Giotto owners dose for a double? Id like to use leveling but am thinking that its still a bit muddy after the extraction even though there is a mark from the showerscreen.

    If any of that makes sense Id appreciate some feedback :). Might post a pic if I can arrange one.

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Hi,

    Have you tried different dosing techniques?* Try using a toothpick to stir the grinds up before you tamp and see if it makes a difference (see Weiss Distribution Technique or WDT).* Some people are horrified with this, but they obviously dont have a grinder that clumps or dumps on one side. (thats another point - make sure the dose is coming out evenly).

    Theres another one I use but I cant remember what its called - a style of grooming.* It can be done in conjunction with the WDT or alone.* Use your first one or two fingers to "mould" the coffee in each part of the basket, clockwise and anticlockwise.* Dont stick your fingers in, but hold them almost flat over the top and rotate your hand around.* That doesnt really make sense but I cant remember what its called so I cant look it up.* Ive seen a few different ways of doing this so dont know what works best.* The idea is to evenly push the grinds into the corners of the basket.

    I dont have a naked pf for my Giotto, but I did use one on the Breville.* The above two techniques drastically improved my naked pours.* Most of the time* ::)

    Hope that helps a bit - Im no expert on Giottos nor HXs in general, having only had one for a month or so :)

    (edit) sounds like youre dosing a bit high also - I was surprised at how small the correct dose looked when I first got it right!

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    hi Mgrobins, I had the eazytamp with my Giotto too. Ive since sold it and got a Pullman. Ive also changed the basket for a Wega as I found the original Giotto baskets were way oversized. One was measured at 59.05mm. thats over 1mm of untamped edge and I found that made a difference. It wouldnt hurt to measure your basket with calipers.

    Nothing wrong with the Eazytamp but if youre using the oversized Giotto basket it does effect the shot if you dont have a custom tamper. Ive definitely noticed a difference in shot consistancy.

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Thanks for the info...

    Maybe I do needs to start from scratch and adjust my technique. Id prefer to avoid having to fiddle too much with the grinds though.

    THe Breville seems to drop grinds very straight but it could be throwing them to the right a little....so I had been experimenting with turning the PF to distribute more evenly or see if the dead spot moved. Made no discernible difference.

    I thought I may be angling the tamper (Im left handed), and pressing into the R side more but thats not happening either.

    Pucks are coming out whole and after the shot I can press it on top and it feels a little spongy, not hard. No obvious signs of channeling.

    after the pre-infusion the pour has the mixture of colours Id expect but seems a little thin, not as much pull-back as I am told should be present if its like honey.

    Ideas?? :)

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Try constantly tapping the PF as the grinder is grinding, and tamp a bit harder

  6. #6
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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Hello mgrobins,

    The Giotto/Smart grinder combo is not one Id normally recommend. My view is that you should be in small cafe grinder (Mazzer, Macap, Compak or equivalent) territory to do your machine justice. Nevertheless, I doubt that its the prime cause of your issues.

    Some things to try:
    • Turn the basket through 180 degress and see what happens
    • Dose in one go, not two. Try something like grinding to a mountain, rap off twice, distribute into the edges of the basket (I use stockfleths), top up and redistribute if required and then brush off to perfectly full and level. Whatever you do, be totally retentive when you dose as this delivers consistency. Be a robot!
    • Tamp once and with no massive pressure twist- which can fracture a puck. You will find a firmer/lighter tamp will make little difference- but be as consistent as you can- whatever you do.
    • Adjust grind to get a pour which is balanced to the palate in that you taste it all over your tongue, not just front or back
    • Use freshly roasted <3 week old coffee. If they dont know when it was roasted or are vague, give it a miss. Try some of Andys BeanBay coffee to see how good it can be or choose one of the many great roasters here.
    • Realise that "fiddling with grind" is an everyday occurrence!

    You may also wish to re/visit www.espressocompany.com.au/how-to.htm and watch Scottie at work. Other than the fact I cant load if I rap off 6 times, its all great stuff ;)

    Lastly, I wouldnt worry too much about your tamper. If youre within about 1mm, it will be fine.

    Good luck!

    Chris

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    I agree with Chriss suggestions. I dose as he described but still use a straight-edge rather than my finger.

    I still use the Giotto basket; the tamper is a minor factor. One of the best shots I ever made on my previous machine (a VBM Piccolo) was using the crappy under-sized plastic tamper.

    But one thing at a time. Work on the distribution first.Try rotating the basket (not the handle) as Chris suggested. If the pour is still skewed to the left, you know its a distribution problem.

    If that doesnt work, try a different bean.

    If that doesnt work, think about upgrading the grinder. Your Giotto will respond well to that.

    But the final determinant is what is in the cup. If your coffee tastes good that is what matters most; the rest is refinement.

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    For a while I was rotating th ebasket in the handle 180 degrees half way through dosing and that fixed the issue I had ;D

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Thank you for the input and advice.

    Ill change my approach and see how it goes.

    The ezytamp gives me a consistant tamp every time. Rather than change my tamp I may adjust the grind to alter extraction?

    Didnt think of rotating the filter... will do so and see if its the problem.

    Size of basket is not too bad as it has very little play around the tamper.

    Im using beans from Di-bella and Supreme roasters. I know what you mean about balance on the palate - thats how I have been testing my results. I dont want to have to move to cutting shots short or delaying with cup placement etc though as I would prefer to get the extraction right at the basket first.

    The Breville was a considered choice after reading enough feedback to indicate it gives good grinding performance. I also looked at a Compak but tbh at the $500-$600 range for semi-commercials I think much of the price is for the heavier motor, robust build etc to help survive volume grinding. The Breville seems to grind well but be built at the home use level for limited throughput.

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 707A6F727F74736E1D0 link=1320662995/8#8 date=1320726710
    The ezytamp gives me a consistant tamp every time. Rather than change my tamp I may adjust the grind to alter extraction?
    change your tamp or change your tamper?

    If the former, then tamping and grinding are not 2 means to the same end. They may both adjust the "clock" but the results will taste different for fine-soft-30s vs coarse-hard-30s.

    If the latter, then if theres very little play its probably ok.

    If rotating doesnt help, try skewing your tamp on purpose to lighten up that dead spot, just to see what factors affect it. Is the water coming out of the screen evenly?

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    I did check if the water comes out evenly and it appears to. Removed the screen and checked the flow as well as I thought it may have been a blockage.

    If I can avoid replacing my tamper I will :P. Appreciate the comments re grind size.... will keep that in mind too.

    If not adjusting tamp pressure, do I adjust dose?

  12. #12
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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 666C7964696265780B0 link=1320662995/10#10 date=1320737741
    If not adjusting tamp pressure, do I adjust dose?
    Gday mg,

    I wouldnt recommend that at this stage. Advanced baristii do play with dose, but as per the previous post, Id suggest you keep dose the same and adjust grind.

    You will find that on a consistent dose, a light or heavy tamp does not make much difference. For mine, its primarily just to even out the density within the puck.

    Adjust your grind to suit the dose and then once you can pour plenty of consistent shots in a row, try varying tamp and see if you notice anything significant ;)

    Chris

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Im only learning also, so do what Chris says ;)

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    i tamp lightly and give a quarter turn. When I tamp my fingers are on the basket so the quarter turn helps me ensure I have tamped level

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Chris,

    just to confirm what you mean....

    I should dose and level off my basket.
    Tamp to whatever pressure I use consistently
    Check the pour
    Adjust grind until pour is correct.


    People talk about updosing etc for the giotto. What is the correct dose? I use a double basket.

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B617469646F6875060 link=1320662995/14#14 date=1320756102
    People talk about updosing etc for the giotto. What is the correct dose? I use a double basket.
    Try:
    Quote Originally Posted by 346B73656E6569606063636B6768060 link=1320662995/5#5 date=1320700748
    something like grinding to a mountain, rap off twice, distribute into the edges of the basket (I use stockfleths), top up and redistribute if required and then brush off to perfectly full and level. Whatever you do, be totally retentive when you dose as this delivers consistency. Be a robot!
    Tamp once and with no massive pressure twist- which can fracture a puck. You will find a firmer/lighter tamp will make little difference- but be as consistent as you can- whatever you do.
    Adjust grind to get a pour which is balanced to the palate in that you taste it all over your tongue, not just front or back
    ;)

  17. #17
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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Thanks Chris.

    I looked up some youtube vids for that technique with your fingers.

    will let you guys know how I go with some technique tweaking ;D.

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    Re: Giotto Extraction advice

    Hi Grobins,

    I dose two full scoops using the standard giotto spoon and work it in using the scottie tools until it is flat across the top. Works a treat and results in a nice consistent pour/dry puck.



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