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Thread: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

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    I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    As few people know I have done some repair and maintain works on my preloved ECM Giotto Premium.
    Descaling, cleaning, replace some parts.
    Everything works fine now (I assume).

    In the past four days, I have tried so many shot to try to find the best coefficient (or control factors) to make the good shot.
    However, my friend and I have been drinking a lot of espresso, long black and cappuccino (4-5 double shot per day), I still can not feel its the right one. (I even throw first few since it is wrong by looking).

    This morning, I start to use EM6910 again just because I brought the Giotto back home now.
    Then the shot by EM6910 is beautiful~
    And forth milk just correct.

    I am not a experience home barista, I only use few different machine and I only have/had EM6910 & GEE (dead Ikon).
    But I just dont know what happen to the Giotto.

    I feel the steam is much stronger in Giotto, I still need to practise.
    I have adjust the themostat(pressuestat) in Giotto with a thermometer.
    I end up choosing boiler pressure is around 0.9 to 1 (default is around 1.1).
    brewing water temp is 94-96.

    I did not leave the coffee on the group head, only put it on before I brew it.
    (the very first time, I left coffee on E61 for 30sec. then the coffee get burn).

    I use KJM and Mocha-Java blend and PNG SO so far.
    Naked PF (Giottos) + VST basket.

    I attached some photos, hope people can give me some hint and tips (I have read some post)
    Cheers
    Colin




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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Colin,

    Im no barista either, but I would have been tempted to vary the grind/tamp before playing with the pressurestat etc.

    You dont exactly say what is wrong with the shots you are pouring (e.g. too bitter? too bland? or is the r-squared from your regression model bothering you?)

    How long is it taking to extract 60mls from a double shot?
    BOSW

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Agree with Barry,

    Tell us what the problem is. Also just a question, why do you have the rubber grip on the steam wand? The ECM Giotto Premium is supposed to be cool touch. The older ECM Classic has a hot steam wand but the Premium onwards has cool touch steam and hot water wands. Another question...why would you leave the coffee in the group head for 30 seconds in the first place on any machine? The whole point to have the freshest coffee and the pain some people go to avoid heat and air contact as they are grinding the beans, I think some would be beside themselves hearing someone grind the beans only to leave it on the group head for half a minute before pulling a shot.

    0.9 at the boiler sounds low to me. 1.1 sounds right, but if you are able to get decent steam from 0.9 to 1.0 at the boiler then I guess its a non-issue (you might be getting very wet steam though). I have mine sitting between 1.1 and 1.2 bar. I suppose this is how you are able to achieve the 94-96 degrees at the group head? Also do you measure the temperature after the machine has been sitting for minimum of 30 minutes? Is the 94-96 degrees after a cooling flush and if so, how long a cooling flush?

    Last thing you need to do is to correct the OPV to 9bars. This will give you a much better tasting espresso but first...as Barry asked, what exactly is the problem with the taste? How does it look in the cup? The photo you posted looks quite "blond" to me. How long does it take for 60 mls to pour?

    Someone should be able to help once we understand exactly what is wrong with the taste.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    That naked pour suggests to me that your grind is not tight enough, Perhaps play with your grinder settings to sort that out a bit more? even on my cheapy sunny-hackjob, I dont get quite so much flow happening on my 30 ml pour

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi Colin,

    Do you use the VST basket with the EM6910 as well?

    From experience you need to grind a notch or two finer with the VST basket but from the image you posted above, I agree with laughing@fate...

    or else you can overdose slightly to see if there is any difference.


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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 39353633342D3F345A0 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
    I end up choosing boiler pressure is around 0.9 to 1 (default is around 1.1).
    sounds too low to maintain a consistent shot temperature...

    Quote Originally Posted by 39353633342D3F345A0 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
    brewing water temp is 94-96.
    that picture shows 89... Was that after sitting?

    How long do you leave the machine on before using? Do you flush the group head first before extracting? Steam can build up in the group head due to the HX which needs to be flushed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by 39353633342D3F345A0 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
    (the very first time, I left coffee on E61 for 30sec. then the coffee get burn).
    Quote Originally Posted by 293B35233F5A0 link=1327274445/2#2 date=1327283825
    Another question...why would you leave the coffee in the group head for 30 seconds
    Im not sure if he means "extracted" for 30s, or just sitting for 30s. In either case did you flush beforehand?

    I find 25s is more "right" that 30s with the way I do things. Dont get stuck on particular numbers...

    Any chance of a vid of the whole process? You could join the Giotto Video users group ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 293B35233F5A0 link=1327274445/2#2 date=1327283825
    The ECM Giotto Premium is supposed to be cool touch
    Not mine :) Must have been a post ECM/Rocket change.

  7. #7
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E565E595355370 link=1327274445/5#5 date=1327301535
    saoye wrote Today at 12:57pm:
    The ECM Giotto Premium is supposed to be cool touch


    Not mine Smiley Must have been a post ECM/Rocket change.
    Really? yours is not cool touch? My machine is definitely an ECM not Rocket though. So you reckon its when Rocket took over and continued with ECM but made some modifications...interesting. Have to read up on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by 54585B5E59405259370 link=1327274445/0#0 date=1327274445
    I did not leave the coffee on the group head, only put it on before I brew it.
    (the very first time, I left coffee on E61 for 30sec. then the coffee get burn).
    Quote Originally Posted by 5E565E595355370 link=1327274445/5#5 date=1327301535
    Im not sure if he means "extracted" for 30s, or just sitting for 30s.
    I may need to brush up on my comprehension but analysing the paragraph his first sentence mentioned not leaving the coffee in the group head the second time around as previously he left it in for 30 seconds and it got burnt. I dont think the 30 seconds referred to a 30 second pour...?

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    TC
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    All Giotto Premium machines- both ECM and Rocket are fitted with cool touch wands (unless a previous owner removed the teflon lining tube). Giotto Classic machines were not cool touch.

    Colin- I recommend you run your machine at 1.2 bar as steam quality will suffer at 0.9 bar. You will need a cooling flush with an unmodified machine. FWIW, assuming the colour is right, your shot looks under extracted and quite possibly cool as well. Do keep in mind that a measurement within the group will not be the same as one taken with a Scace device at the group head and puck.

    Chris

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 18475F494249454C4C4F4F474B442A0 link=1327274445/7#7 date=1327313280
    All Giotto Premium machines- both ECM and Rocket are fitted with cool touch wands (unless a previous owner removed the teflon lining tube). Giotto Classic machines were not cool touch.

    Thanks for the clarification Chris. I thought that was the case.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 326D756368636F666665656D616E000 link=1327274445/7#7 date=1327313280
    All Giotto Premium machines- both ECM and Rocket are fitted with cool touch wands (unless a previous owner removed the teflon lining tube). Giotto Classic machines were not cool touch.
    I sit corrected :) Do I need to spin this off to another topic? How do I tell the difference between a classic and a premium? Mine is 2007 and ECM, not Rocket, but looks like all the pictures of a Premium that I can see, and was sold as a premium (and identified as such by other snobbers). Heres the sale thread: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1310796978 The steam wand is definitely hot during steaming!

    Colin - it was nice to watch your rebuild thread. I hope you get this going as it really can make great coffee!

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks for alls reply.
    I was finishing some writing job, did not come back until now.

    Let me try to explain clearly following the order.

    The problem I found in the cup is too bitter, and lost most of the flavour (compare to EM6910).
    The comparison between Giotto and EM6910 made with same VST basket (18g).
    Grinding size is a bit different tho.

    The time for EM6910 need a bit corse to reach 25s for 60ml.
    Brewing of the Giotto is 60ml for 25s with same ground size as EM6910 but I use a bit fine to run 60ml/25s.

    The temperature of the photos is after sitting for a while, it was 96 degree when the pressurestat setting to 1.1bar.
    Adjust a bit to 0.9 ~1, the temperature can reduce to 94degree.
    Then reason I reduce it to 94 is because the coffee from 96 is even far bitter.

    The 30s left the coffee on the e61 is a mistake, I understand. >_<
    Because I always do that when I use EM6910.

    The protocol is most like.
    1. grinding coffee, temping then put into the group head.
    2. go open the fridge, and froth the milk.
    3. when nearly in the end of froth (em6910 does not have strong steam), I press the brewing button.


    Therefore, the very first time I use the wrong way to brew my coffee.

    About the anti-heat grip on my steam wand, I bought that one from coffee parts.
    I know the steam wand from Giotto should not heat up.
    Mine also has the anti-burn pipe inside.
    However, I still burn myself few times.
    Therefore, when I bought some part from coffeepart (seal, shower head etc), I pick it too.


    I hope I explain more clearly this time.

    So I should grind it finer and adjust the pressurestat to 1.1?

    Cheers
    Colin

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 54585B5E59405259370 link=1327274445/10#10 date=1327365292
    The protocol is most like.
    1. grinding coffee, temping then put into the group head.
    2. go open the fridge, and froth the milk.
    3. when nearly in the end of froth (em6910 does not have strong steam), I press the brewing button.
    Hi Colin,

    From your answers I think most of us know the multiple reasons why your coffee is harsh and bitter, but for interest sake can you please do steps 1 and 2 and when you get to step 3 measure the temperature at the Brew head.* Let us know the results.* ;)

    This is just the temperature side of things, but please realise that you have also locked the portafilter into the group head with the ground coffee for over 1 minute before even pulling the shot.* [smiley=shocked.gif].* No matter what machine youre using, that is just not right.* If you want to pull the shot after steaming the milk than lock the portafilter in just before you pull the shot.* most of us pull the shot first then steam the milk.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B474441465F4D46280 link=1327274445/10#10 date=1327365292
    The protocol is most like.
    1. grinding coffee, temping then put into the group head.
    2. go open the fridge, and froth the milk.
    3. when nearly in the end of froth (em6910 does not have strong steam), I press the brewing button.
    Hi Colin, cooling flushes have been mentioned 3 times so far in this thread - have a read on cooling flushes with regard to E61s and I think youll notice a big difference. You may have to put the pressure back to 1.1 though since youll need to sustain ~94 degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B4947514D280 link=1327274445/11#11 date=1327374249
    when you get to step 3 measure the temperature at the Brew head
    Depending on his thermometer he may not see the spike and herein lies your problem (methinks!) - you think the temperature is 94 degress but its most likely 100+ for anywhere up to 10 seconds. You wont see this with your thermometer if it takes a few seconds to move the needle from idle (80?) to 94 since by then the extra-hot bit is over, and your needle just sits on 94 degrees.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hello Colin,

    Might I suggest: www.espressocompany.com.au/how-to.htm as I think there are probably some useful pointers you may find handy.

    Giotto premium machines do run hot which is why we developed a thermostability upgrade for them. You will need to learn and use a cooling flush with an unmodified machine. Further information can be found at http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/equipment/coffee-machine-thermostability-upgrade.php

    Cheers

    Chris

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi Colin,

    The link Chris gave you really explains it in the "Texturing your Milk" video from 3:00 onwards.* It explains about staleness and the importance of pulling a shot as close as you can to texturing your milk to get the best result.

    As a contrast to your procedure, heres my latte process from start to finish.

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGvo3Qp_QdQ[/media]

    (edit Andy - used the "media" tags so the video appears here)

    Note the cooling flush from 2:25.*

    Hope it helps.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks for everyones suggestion and common again.
    The mistake that I lock it to group head seems did not affect the EM6910 too much since I have done some experience (or I can not tell the difference in cup).

    But I do learn it from E61 machine.
    I think I forgot to mention the mistake I only made at the first time when I use the Giotto.
    Then I figured it out pretty soon in my first cup.
    I did not lock my PF on group head since then.

    I realize the importance of cool flushing now, I have used the cool flushing this afternoon.
    However, I did not feel much improvement in the cup.

    Due to the time limited, I wont adjust the pressurestat until weekend.

    Thanks again for everyones input, I will try the advice and the link from above.
    Then I will update what happen in my cup.

    Cheers
    Colin

  17. #17
    tek
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Step 1 remove thermometer completely (it wont help you here)
    Step 2 Adjust pressure to 1.1
    Step 3 Keep handle in head to keep it hot
    Step 4 enjoy

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Agree that the boiler pressure should be returned to 1.1 to 1.2 Bar.
    Saturated steam temperature at 0.9bar is 118.6 degrees C, 1.1 bar is 121.8 degrees C and 1.2 bar is 123.3 degrees C.

    I run my Giotto at 1.2, for the steaming power, and do a cooling flush before a shot to compensate.

    To my eye, the crotchless PF shot is pale from low water temperature, IMHO.

    Good luck

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 262E26212B2D4F0 link=1327274445/9#9 date=1327364336
    The steam wand is definitely hot during steaming!
    Hi Iandb, getting a little off-topic here but for Colin and yourself I think the definition for the Giotto Premium steam and hot water wand is "anti BURN" not "anti-HOT".

    The fact that you can physically touch the steam wand after a steam without giving yourself a first degree burn I guess is anti-burn. Note that it would be definitely uncomfortable if you held onto the steam wand. On my Lelit I cannot even touch the wand directly or I will get burnt. The heat on my Lelit wand would be similar to the Giotto grouphead temperature and if youve been like me (several times) just brushing the gruophead with your hand while trying to access the wands you know what a burn feels like. ::)

    Heres this mornings latte from my ECM Giotto. A blend of Indonesian and African Arabica with deep chocolatey flavours and low acidity.




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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Just come back to update what happen so far.

    I follow peoples suggestion, I adjust the pressurestat to make the boiler pressure back to 1.1 now.

    I did not see too much different in the cup for the first test.
    Probably the pressure of boiler (and temp of water) is not the factor affect the bitterness.

    I start to adjust the grinder again to a bit corse and more amount.
    I also follow the cooling flushing progress for E61 machines protocol.
    The cup start t taste less bitter, but still quite bitter than same blend from EM6910.

    For the chemical residual possibility, I blind test the water (only) from Giotto group, EM6910 and filter water.
    Personally, I can not tell the different.
    I assume the chemical is not the factor affect my taste.

    However, I did found the espresso temp between Giotto and EM6910 are far different.
    I start to wonder if possible that I used to EM6910 so bad that I can not accept the ideal & proper one (ie Giotto)?

    The blend I used in the past few days is Mocha-Java (50% Yemen and Indonesia Java).
    I can taste the coco flavour in my mouth and acidity.

    Same coffee from Giotto start with bitterness and a bit chocolate in the end.
    Maybe its more close to Italian espresso?
    However, I still can not enjoy it as from EM6910.

    About frothing milk part, I still need to practise more.
    The very last one from Giotto start to have some froth..(finally).
    Before that, I only can make huge bubble and heating the milk without any froth..

    I watch the video link from saoye, its quite a lot of cooling flush (compare to the ECAs introductory video).
    I tried once with one full cup cooling flushing, the taste is pretty much the same (still bitter).
    But I did notice the KK style frothing milk, can anyone give me a head up?
    I can not figure out the secrete in the video.

    About the OPV possible issue, I can see where is located in my machine.
    However, I feel the PF with pressure gauge is quite necessary for adjust the right pressure ?(11 bar from what I have read?).

    I have the clean disk from EM6910, but did not see any post about how to use the clean disk to adjust the HX machine.
    Any one can give me some link or advice?

    I will post the video and photos later this week to show the shot I have so far.
    Cheers
    Colin

  21. #21
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 414D4E4B4C55474C220 link=1327274445/19#19 date=1327738211
    I watch the video link from saoye, its quite a lot of cooling flush (compare to the ECAs introductory video).
    I tried once with one full cup cooling flushing, the taste is pretty much the same (still bitter).
    But I did notice the KK style frothing milk, can anyone give me a head up?
    Hi Colin,

    Others will a better source of info re the bitterness problem, but I also fairly recently upgraded to a machine with much greater steaming power than my old one. I find the trick to using the KK method is to err on the side of minimising the time in which you are adding air to the milk. It really only takes a couple of seconds to get enough air in the milk to make very passable microfoam. You dont need to hear the pffft (sorry) sound for very long at all. I also stick my milk jug in the fridge for 5 mins before I make the coffee (and this might help partic. in Nth Qld).

    FWIW re the bitterness, are your extraction times (to the point of blonding) in a sensible range?
    Cheers
    Barry OSW

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks, BarryO for the hint.
    I did use the old fashion way from EM6910, I kept the tip of steam wand on the surface.

    I will try the advice tomorrow morning.
    (The north QLDs heat is really killing me today...)

  23. #23
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 272B282D2A33212A440 link=1327274445/21#21 date=1327757172
    I kept the tip of steam wand on the surface.
    No worries Colin. After the first few seconds, and you lower the wand into the milk (and move to side of jug), it need not go very far below the surface (just far enough to stop the obvious integration of more air into the milk).

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    failed, failed, failed...
    So frustrated now...
    Again.. I can not get good espresso and even milk froth.
    I tried three times this morning, followed peoples advice.
    Still can not get as good as I expected.

    I stop by the local roaster/service center- Coffee Dominion to ask the quote for calibrating service since I have done the descaling/cleaning.
    The technician-Ben is quite friendly and patient.
    Even there are a lot of customer behind me for ordering (which is the real business there).
    He still listent carefully to what I said about the situation.
    I think I mistaken this shop by their arrogant barista in front desk.

    He quote the service is about 60-80, which I believe is a fair price for few hours professional job.
    And it can buy me good night sleep too.
    Of course, no guarantee I can start to make good coffee after that.
    At least I have a ground zero to start with instead of trial and error.

    Thanks again for people relying this subject, I will keep it posted once I got the machine back.

    Colin

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    TC
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hello Colin,

    Can I recommend that you get some training with known good (and consistent) product.

    The Giotto will easily out hit the Sunbeam. If the cooling flush (common to older machines like yours, but not present in Giotto Premium Plus) bothers you, we can do a thermostability upgrade as well as a full service.

    Chris

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks Chris.
    After this experience, I am thinking about taking a barista training from Coffee Dominon.
    It is asking 60 dollars for a 3 hrs course.

    I would love to upgrade the machine with a thermostablize mod, but I live pretty far from any big city. (as far as I know, talk coffee is at Melbourne)
    Maybe I have to wait til I finish my degree, then I may know where I will end up with.

    Colin

  27. #27
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Colin, I doubt you will learn much from a $60 per 3 hour course. More likely to find yourself with a large number of people watching a barista using a commercial machine. I suggest you do a bit more research regarding the courses that may be offered in your area.

  28. #28
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi Colin,

    A barista course is definitely a good idea if you still cant get anywhere with all the suggestions. My last suggestion would be to post a video of your process so that we can visually see what you are doing wrong.

    By the way, with regards to cooling flush I usually flush until I stop seeing spluttering and bellows of steam. The E61 group head is known to run hot.

    Lastly, if you are getting big huge bubbles in your milk your steam wand is way too high from the surface of the milk and you are incorporating too much air. If you are getting no bubbles at all, I would think most likely you are overheating the milk as from the sounds of things you are incorporating air. Does your steam wand have 2 holes or 4 holes? What size jug are you using. I find the larger the jug eg a 1 L jug I have the wand about 1mm+ above the surface (for a 2 hole). For my 600ml jug I actuall have the tip just touching the surface of the milk...literally the tip just touching but the two holes are still above the surface. Remember, do not overheat your milk. when its uncomfortable for you to holdl your fingers to the jug for more than 2 seconds thats pretty much done.

    Hopefully you can give us a video of what you are doing right now so that we can see instead of from descriptions.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks Dennis and Saoye,
    That is what I thought about this
    barista course" before I struggled with this Giotto.
    I have learnt a lot from Coffeesnobs huge informative post and video (youtube) here and there.
    I used the EM6910 pretty well now and I feel amazing how I can tell the minor different between VST and other basket and different SO bean etc.

    The big obstacle to me this time is this Giotto should be the real commercial setup for home coffee connoisseur, then I feel I am worse than a newbie after all the advice I have from this and other website.

    This morning I was trying to record my brewing with my camera, but failed due to the HD limited of my basic consumer DC.
    I will make sure I will have another one to illustrate my failure this afternoon...

    For frothing milk from my Giotto.
    I had some better result from 1liter jar yesterday.
    I used 600ml jar this morning twice, both of them got thin froth and big bubble.

    I have to pick up my confidence by using the EM6910, and enjoy the coffee today.
    So I come to my office/lab to enjoy the coffee (and working for my thesis of course >_<).

    The more I put myself into the coffee journey, the more endless path feeling I have...
    cheers
    Colin

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hey Colin a video I made the other day that you might find of interest. To be honest Im finding the KK method bulletproof at the moment.

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRx3Qds7BEw[/media]

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 222E2D282F36242F410 link=1327274445/19#19 date=1327738211
    I start to adjust the grinder again to a bit corse and more amount.
    I also follow the cooling flushing progress for E61 machines protocol.
    The cup start t taste less bitter, but still quite bitter than same blend from EM6910.
    Colin, why did you go coarser on the grind? It seemed all of the suggestions were suggesting a finer grind.

    Comparing the photo of your pour, to what I see from my Breville (with naked PF), the pour looks too fast. Mine are much darker, and look more syrupy. Id be grinding slightly finer and not make any other adjustments yet (as always, adjust one variable at a time when troubleshooting).


  32. #32
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi Colin, since you had a hard time understanding what I did with the milk, heres a different angle showing the milk being textured from the top.

    Not much different to ITC since were both using KKs method.* :)

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHzJ_9lKQtw
    [/media]

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks "InTheCup" and Saoye,
    I will carefully watch the video clip for some detail.

    @MrJack,
    YES. I have try different grinding settings, but when I go corse, the bitter reduce a bit but lose flavor too due to brewing is too fast.

    I brought the machine to the local service centre which is also local Giotto dealer.
    They rang me back yesterday saying they feel no major problem after they check it.
    I am not sure how they check it, but during the conversation we decide I will go to their shop to make the espresso with my Giotto to see where is the problem.

    I feel a bit scary...being a home barista and showing a real barista how I make the coffee is huge different.

    I hope I wont embarrass myself this afternoon.

    At least good news is there is no major issue with this machine...

    Colin

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi Colin,

    sorry if my previous post sounded abrubt - Im not intending to be! I should be more patient :)

    The only thing I can say about the local repairer is this: do they even know about thermosyphon temperature & flow, boiler pressure, boiler level, OPV pressure and how they all affect each other, etc or do they just "fix" broken bits?! Just because they are a Giotto dealer or espresso machine servicer doesnt mean they understand as much as (for example) Chris from Talk Coffee, who has measured and tested all these variables.

    So when they say the machine is working, they could just mean "there are no leaks and hot water comes out the group". Having said that they could also be experts, I really dont know, but its worth thinking about.

    I think your barista skills wont be an embarrassment!

    Hope you get to the bottom of it!

  35. #35
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Get them (the professionals!) to make you a good coffee on your equipment.

    Greg

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks iaindb and Greg again for the advice.

    I will ask them for the demonstration and detail.
    I totally agree I was worried how good they are, however, live in a semi-remote area, they are my last help.
    I wish I am live somewhere close to Chris (Talk_Coffee) since the thermostability modification sounds exciting.

    Few mins ago, I almost pack up my stuff and on the way to the coffee shop and then got the phone call we have to postpone the meeting due to the barista forgot he has a day off this afternoon. (He left a voice msg but my dodgy optus did not record anything...)

    Another quick chat with Jonathan (who seems like to be the head of barista over there), he said the boiler pressure is at 1.1 bar and its good (duh..)
    Brewing pressure (group head pressure) is 9 bar (which I thought this machine is 11 bar according to most of the users post).

    He suggested as others mentioned about the problem may due to grinder and bean.
    Water might also be a problem since I did the descaling as non-technician (he did not say the exact same words, but similar meaning that I might screw up the machine when I descale it).

    Therefore, tomorrow we will meet up (again), and I will bring my bean but not grinder.
    To see what happen to my machine or my skill or my palate in the end... :(
    Fingers cross...

    @iandb, no worries, I understand people here is very keen and helpful.
    The writing (sentence) sometimes did not sounds that way, but I believe people here not come to judge others.
    I am happy to get any different response than no-one reply my post.

    So far all the post (since the first one when I got this Giotto) are very informative and helpful.
    Sometimes its me did not write down the clear information/detail (might due to its my second language).

    Cheers
    Colin


  37. #37
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 505C5F5A5D44565D330 link=1327274445/35#35 date=1328073102
    Few mins ago, I almost pack up my stuff and on the way to the coffee shop and then got the phone call we have to postpone the meeting due to the barista forgot he has a day off this afternoon. (He left a voice msg but my dodgy optus did not record anything...)
    Hang in there Colin. At least you get to learn about the concept of Queensland Time.

    And dont sweat about your meeting with the barista guy. Seriously, whats the worst that can happen? Not much. Whats the potential upside? You could pick up some useful tips. Much less stressful than completing a thesis (done that one a few times myself).

    BOSW

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi colin,

    Since you cant take you grinder, perhaps you could take a sample of the grinds with you? At least you can then make a visual comparison with the ones you use there for the demonstration.

  39. #39
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Morning Colin, with all of the helpful good natured advice you have been given here and in another forum where you have virtually duplicated everything you have posted here you really should be making some progress, if your still having problems I suggest paying someone for some professional help should be your next logical step. ;)

  40. #40
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 172B223A2F4E0 link=1327274445/38#38 date=1328143054
    Morning Colin, with all of the helpful good natured advice you have been given here and in another forum where you have virtually duplicated everything you have posted here you really should be making some progress, if your still having problems I suggest paying someone for some professional help should be your next logical step. ;)
    Good at least that the cross-posting is elsewhere. Might be worth cross-posting our responses as well! ;) ;D

  41. #41
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    I apology if my cross-post against any forum policy.
    I was just so dispirited and looking for help.

    As far as I know not too many member cross here and another forum.
    Even they are, they did not response at the same time or even not response at all.
    At least, AM who use to response a lot in my first EM6910 is not here that often.

    I do agree with Chris, probably there will be some stubborn people like me in the future try to maintain/fix the machine themselves, but end up in the dead end like me.
    These post will be very valuable for them to read to see my tragedy as a negative example.

    Hoever, if those future candidate know how to use google might also find the different suggestion and advice from both forum.
    Of coures, at some point, CS has far more member than others, most of these member may just come here to buy/sell the 2nd coffee stuff, or throw a help post then disappear.
    There people who really contribute to this forum and guide the struggling newbie (ie me) may be only less than 1%.

    Or some people are just sick of these deja vu post come out every now and then (I did do some search before I start a new help thread tho).

    I believe these issue happens at every forum at every category.

    I really appreciate people who was willing to spend the time to typing any reply post.
    Even the content is more moralization than advice/suggestion.
    I am still more than happy to see different peoples opinion about my mistake/ignorance.

    I wish after 3pm this afternoon, once I got the meeting with local real barista.
    I will get some tip or suggestion about my operation.

    btw, I meant to upload my brewing video clip which I have recorded.
    But need to cut some redundancy off, I did not have time to go through yet.

    hope I will post my video very soon.

    Colin

  42. #42
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Hi Colin,

    I think its a big mistake not to take your grinder.

    I am guessing one or a combination of dose technique, beans and grind setting. You will be without one very important element.

    Chris

  43. #43
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 586D6067534F636A6A69690C0 link=1327274445/41#41 date=1328146227
    Hi Colin,

    I think its a big mistake not to take your grinder.

    I am guessing one or a combination of dose technique, beans and grind setting. You will be without one very important element.

    Chris
    Have to agree with Chris, not only important but crucial.

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Thanks Chris and Jon,

    Then I think I will bring my Isomac Professionale instead of Gino Rossi RR45 (too heavy).
    Or maybe the reason they asked me "not" to bring my own entry level grinder is they are going to show/convince me to buy their expensive grinder....(just guessing~).

    Colin

  45. #45
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    take the grinder you have been using ;)

  46. #46
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5164696E5A466A63636060050 link=1327274445/44#44 date=1328146849
    take the grinder you have been using ;)
    Or intend using, not taking the grinder would be a bit like asking a mechanic to diagnose a problem with your wifes Hyundai by looking at your Ford.

  47. #47
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Quote Originally Posted by 59555653544D5F543A0 link=1327274445/40#40 date=1328145398
    btw, I meant to upload my brewing video clip which I have recorded.
    But need to cut some redundancy off, I did not have time to go through yet.

    hope I will post my video very soon.
    Hi Colin. Post it here from start to finish without editing. You should make your video showing your current method giving you the poor result.
    What you might think is insignificant in many cases does make a difference. We cant help if we dont see what your habits are. If you edit, cut etc then you are only showing us what you want us to see...not what is the full picture.

    Look forward to your video. :)

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Finally~~Here is the end of the story.

    I went to meet the technician and the boss (head brista) of the local roaster/coffee shop (Coffee Dominion) yesterday.
    At very beginning, the boss (named Jon) even too busy to meet me due to another business meeting.
    Because I am that dispirited when I have a quick chat about the machine, he even want me to bring a 700ish grinder back home to try.
    However, before we met, they have not time to try to use my Giotto to make any coffee.
    Besides, the technician (Ben) found the water level probe are heavily scaled (even I have done the proper descaling, it can show how terrible the machine was).
    He did a bit descaling on the probe only.
    Both Ben and jon agreed this machine has been taken a good care (clean and maintain).
    They can not figure out what happen to my cup.

    Then when I almost have to leave and come back next day, the owner Jon ask me to wait a bit if I am still happy to go through the Giotto together.
    Because his business partner did not turn out.

    Luckily, I have the chance to work on the machine this Jon.
    We had another quick chat about the detail happened to my test between Giotto and EM6910.
    In order to make sure the coffee machine itself works fine, we use their grinder for first test (Mazzer robur electronic).

    We spent some time go through different amount of tamping and grinder size and bean.
    Then the machine can produce great espresso.
    Because its over their close time, and it has been 1.5 hours since we start all the experiment.
    Even we have not tried my grinder (Isomac Professionale), we both believe the machine itself is good.

    We concluded the scaled water level probe has done something in the boiler, to make the water level wrong (probably too high?).
    Then the water through the heat exchange boiler over heat the water then burn the coffee.
    Thats why I have the over bitterness in my cup.
    He ask me if I can see the different of steam between before and after service.
    Honestly I can not...

    And the most appreciating thing is he ONLY ask me a 20 bucks for the bean we have used!!
    What a surprise!!
    He said he can see I am a enthusiastic coffee person, he is happy to see what happen to the machine with me.
    For him, its a good experience, because obviously not too many people have this machine in our city/town.
    And people may not tell the difference either in their cup when they use the machine.

    I am so touch, because for a businessman like him, there must be hundred and hundred things are more important than playing a machine with amateur coffee drinker.

    After back home, I did play a bit to see if my grinder is fine.
    So far, I think I get closer to the sweet spot of my roast bean.

    I am uploading my pre-service and post-service video.
    From what I can see the brewing espresso itself is not too distinguishable.
    But the mouth flavour is such huge different.
    I am still playing around the machine, I yet can make a good froth milk.
    I think I just need to practise more often.

    Thanks again everyone here in this thread who gave any advice and feedback.
    And Thanks for Coffee Dominion, I was misunderstanding you before about the way you roast.
    I am a happy Giotto owner now (yet not super tho because of the froth milk part).

    Colin

  49. #49
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    Good to hear things are developing into a happy ending.

    So when you be buying a new Robur ;)

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    Re: I can not produce the good espresso from Giotto as EM6910...

    I had a laugh~
    You are funny, flynn_aus.

    I believe it only happen when some other coffee shop did not take care of their Mazzer Robur and throw it with a bargain price.
    Then I will pick it up from evil bay. do another decent clean/maintain.
    Then found out something wrong with the grinder.
    Then replace all the here and there.
    Then crying out loud on this forum (again)...

    Deja vu?



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