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Thread: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

  1. #1
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    Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Long story short, but Ive been rebuilding an ECM Giotto over the last few months on and off that I bought from a friend. Unfortunately it was left in a state unfit for espresso production and consumption by a so called "repairer". The actions of this business has re-enforced the fears I face whenever needing to put something in for service. You need to be able to trust that the repairs will be carried out in an honest manner using proper workmanship with correct parts and unfortunately this was a long way from being the case. I intend on making sure this doesnt happen to someone else.

    Ive kept questions off this and other forums in order try and resolve the situation using other means such as reading lots of other related threads and studying whatever photos available to try and make sense of what was done. A huge thanks must go to ECA for stepping in and going WAY above and beyond the call of duty to try and make things right, which given the situation they had no obligation whatsoever to do so. If ECA and I realised how deep the deception and shoddy workmanship reached with this "repairer", neither of us may have headed down this long path.

    On a positive note, it has taught me a lot about ECM Giottos and more about espresso machines in general and I now have a machine with lots of new parts (at great cost and effort!). And on the support given by ECA, I would not hesitate recommending a Giotto machine to anyone else based on the EXCELLENT customer service alone. By reading other threads here and elsewhere, I get the feeling they are not the only company in this industry doing the same which is great to see.

    Anyway, on to a couple of questions;

    * 1. When moving the brew lever to the middle pre-infusion position, should the pump be activated. I get the feeling the microswitch wasnt correctly positioned and the pump is activated in both pre-infusion and brew positions. Easy fix but just need to know if the pump should only activate on brew or both.

    * 2. How many turns of the steam and water knobs should it take before they open? I need more than 1 3/4 full turns (about 700 degrees) and wondering if this is normal. Should there be a brass washer between the c-clip and the knob just behind the knob cover?

    Thanks in advance and I will probably have a few more questions until I see this project to completion, which is very close. Already made a few caffe lattes with good results. Will only get better :)


  2. #2
    TC
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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 73796A75797676180 link=1333667569/0#0 date=1333667569
    * 1. When moving the brew lever to the middle pre-infusion position, should the pump be activated?
    No- just a mid position between the movement of the group pistons

    Quote Originally Posted by 73796A75797676180 link=1333667569/0#0 date=1333667569
    * 2. How many turns of the steam and water knobs should it take before they open? I need more than 1 3/4 full turns (about 700 degrees) and wondering if this is normal. Should there be a brass washer between the c-clip and the knob just behind the knob cover?
    Yes- you shouldhave a washer between the knob and c-clip. It should save roughly 1 turn.

    Perhaps the repairer should be named. If not, those looking for repairs might PM you so as to know to stay clear...

    Good luck with your "as new" Giotto!

    Chris

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 757F6C737F70701E0 link=1333667569/0#0 date=1333667569
    1. When moving the brew lever to the middle pre-infusion position, should the pump be activated.
    No. the pump should only be activated when the* lever cam depresses the microswitch in the up position.

    2. How many turns of the steam and water knobs should it take before they open?
    Im pretty sure the steam tap on* my machine requires about one turn before steam emerges but I always turn it all the way on when texturing milk.

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Thanks guys. The steam valve did have a washer and the water valve didnt. One had a spring behind the knob and the other didnt so challenging to work out which is correct assuming they should both be the same. The one with the washer does save 1 turn as you mentioned. Is a spring meant to be behind the knob?

    I dont intend to name the "repairer" as I dont think thats the right way to go about it, but I do intend to deal with the issue through the appropriate authorities and let them decide.

    If someone needs a recommendation on other service agents, pm me and Ill try and help or may be best to ask one of the sponsors here.

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    My machine is only 6 months old and hopefully still set as per factory.

    Both steam and water knobs open at three quarters of a turn. This means that you do not have to turn them off hard.

    The pump comes on at about the 8:30 position if you take fully down as 6 oclock and fully up as 9 oclock. Cant find my feeler gauges to measure but the gap between the cam on the handle and the top of the micro-switch is just under 2mm.

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 3C36253A363939570 link=1333667569/3#3 date=1333673578
    One had a spring behind the knob and the other didnt so challenging to work out which is correct assuming they should both be the same. The one with the washer does save 1 turn as you mentioned. Is a spring meant to be behind the knob?
    Yes- the order is spring, knob, washer, c-clip and finally the decorative cover.

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Forgot to mention my machine is Rocket PP. Just in case they are different.

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 072B2D3A232F4A0 link=1333667569/4#4 date=1333674154
    My machine is only 6 months old and hopefully still set as per factory.

    Both steam and water knobs open at three quarters of a turn. This means that you do not have to turn them off hard.
    Yeah, I guess the age of the seal would play a role in how much turning is required. Sounds like your machine is still nice and tight.

    The pump comes on at about the 8:30 position if you take fully down as 6 oclock and fully up as 9 oclock. Cant find my feeler gauges to measure but the gap between the cam on the handle and the top of the micro-switch is just under 2mm.
    Ive now adjusted the switch and using my hi-tech feeler gauge (flip pages on a post-it note pad until it fits in the gap then measure the thickness of the pages with digital calipers) I get a gap of ~1.3mm. This results in the pump kicking in just after moving to the brew position. Some water still passes through the group before the pump kicks in so I might need to adjust this further so it kicks in as soon as I move from pre-infusion I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1E2B26211509252C2C2F2F4A0 link=1333667569/5#5 date=1333674200
    Quote Originally Posted by 3C36253A363939570 link=1333667569/3#3 date=1333673578
    One had a spring behind the knob and the other didnt so challenging to work out which is correct assuming they should both be the same. The one with the washer does save 1 turn as you mentioned. Is a spring meant to be behind the knob?
    Yes- the order is spring, knob, washer, c-clip and finally the decorative cover.
    Excellent. Even though the Giotto parts diagrams have been very useful, they dont show the washer or spring or the exploded view inside the valve showing gaskets.

    Quote Originally Posted by 072B2D3A232F4A0 link=1333667569/6#6 date=1333674511
    Forgot to mention my machine is Rocket PP. Just in case they are different.
    And I forgot to mention mine is the ECM Giotto Premium (with half moon gauge).

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Using your high tech feeler gauges I get 1.4mm. Looks like you are pretty close.
    I recently had to put my machine in for a new green light LED that failed under warranty. It was done by a local Brisbane company recommended by my supplier ( a site sponsor) and I was very happy with their service. Of course this was a very simple job though. PM me if you would like to discuss off forum.
    Noel

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E4244534A46230 link=1333667569/8#8 date=1333678956
    Using your high tech feeler gauges I get 1.4mm. Looks like you are pretty close.
    I recently had to put my machine in for a new green light LED that failed under warranty. It was done by a local Brisbane company recommended by my supplier ( a site sponsor) and I was very happy with their service. Of course this was a very simple job though. PM me if you would like to discuss off forum.
    Noel
    Thanks for Beta testing my new tool Noel ;-) Sounds like Im close enough until I discover the correct way to position it.

    Im hoping to become fairly self sufficient when it comes to machine repairs but will let you know if that changes and I need a trusted repairer. This little exercise has scarred me somewhat!

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Another question.

    When moving the lever to the middle pre-infusion position, should I get some water coming though the group without pump pressure for the pre-infusion? Im getting nothing till moving the lever up a fraction past where it locks into the middle position. Then if I go further Im in full brew mode.

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    I think Ive been incorrectly calling the middle lever position pre-infusion and not understanding how its meant to work. After a little reading it appears my machine is doing the right thing, but happy to be educated further or correctly :-)

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Have a look at searching on google for E61 group head. Some interesting background info and explanations come up but because much of it is on commercial sites I can not give you the links.
    Noel

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    Re: Rebuilding an ECM Giotto and have some questions

    Thanks Noel. Have found lots of good info and will try and post some links if I can.



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