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Thread: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

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    Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi,

    I did a search in this section of the forum on any discussions on warranties and the implied /\/ statutory warranties talked about in the ACCC site but i couldnt locate one, so i thought id start one...* ;)

    As i recently purchased a Breville machine which comes with 2 year warranty, i started researching my next machine id like to purchase as my next step up in a few years.

    I thought as a discussion id raise this topic on why do expensive machines such as Rocket, Diadema, Vibiemme and Bezzera that i have looked at only come with 12 months warranty for a 2K+ machine, albeit you can purchase an extended warranty but why? I wouldve expected given consumer use (not commerical) that i would expect the machine to last years if looked after, and given they are double the price to overseas sellers in Europe and US, and i understand that shipping, middle man profit, end seller profit plus local service provision of the product they do need to earn a living although i beg to differ on double the oseas price (anyways thats another topic of discussion and not my main point here).

    What i wanted to talk about was why is the warranty so short that is the minimum they would possibly provide and not something 3 - 5 years on such an expensive product where they are happy to offer an extended warranty for a fee in excess of 12 mths (an ACCC and Fair Trading talk consistently about extended warranties are a waste of money as you should be entitled to warranty as implied /\/ statutory warranty for a product fitting of that products expectation on price and quality).

    Heres a short blurb from ACCC site...

    Where do consumer guarantees fit with other warranties?
    Consumer guarantees apply even if the product or service comes with a voluntary warranty or an extended warranty that you sell.

    These additional warranties do not override or limit consumer guarantees; consumers may be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund, even if any voluntary or extended warranty has expired.

    When you sell a product or service you must honour the consumer guarantees. This means that you have an obligation to help consumers with problems and cannot just refer them to the manufacturer providing an additional voluntary warranty.

    Is there a time limit on consumer guarantees?
    There are no specific rules about how long after a voluntary or manufacturer’s warranty expires that consumers may be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund under the consumer guarantees. This will depend on the product or service and the nature of the problem.


    So perhaps some CS Sponsors /\/ distrbutors would like to add to this post on how they stand behind the product in terms of such a short warranty if something goes wrong with the item outside of 12 months....

    Any other member comments i am most interested in with their experiences with these expensive brands and what i could expect from parting with 2.5 - 3K if something goes wrong after 12 mths without being more out of pocket for the machine if it stops working...

    Whilst i am not at the stage of purchasing that expensive item, it certainly begs the question why isnt the warranty better fitting for that product. Why should i pay more for an extended warranty when that product should be fit for the purpose of lasting 5+ plus without any issues.

    Btw this is not a troll type question or to cause an argument in any way shape or form...

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Way I see it, its more wishy washy ACCC shiny bums on seats garbage. Make it as generalised as possible so that it actually reads as nothing. ::)

    Real espresso machines are hugely reliable and the overwhelming majority of faults I see <5 years are due to poor hygiene and/or lousy water.

    Whereas Chinese gear really needs a longer warranty because every cent is removed from the unit cost in the design process, prosumer gear is a different kettle of fish.

    Id like the ACCC to explain why I had to pay $51 in credit card surcharge for the flights I used last weekend and why they are going to attempt to change it with more non-specific waffle which will ultimately achieve pretty much diddly squat.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A554D5B505B575E5E5D5D555956380 link=1339543442/1#1 date=1339544130
    Id like the ACCC to explain why I had to pay $51 in credit card surcharge for the flights I used last weekend and why they are going to attempt to change it with more non-specific waffle which will ultimately achieve pretty much diddly squat.
    This i do know about having paid $20 per person for a group of 7 to go to bali earlier this year as CC fee (total $140) to Jetstar it is definitely a ripoff fee which the RBA is now addressing this, but this i think is another topic of discussion...* ;)

    But back to your first half of post

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A554D5B505B575E5E5D5D555956380 link=1339543442/1#1 date=1339544130
    Way I see it, its more wishy washy ACCC garbage.
    This doesnt wash with me, there is a major difference of course between chinese and italian made stuff i would expect although largely labour costs are in my expectation higher in Italy than China, having said that, some chinese made stuff if a reasonably good quality if manufacturing controls are in place, that is as an example boiler was 2.00mm thick instead of 1.00mm (this is just an example only i dont know the tolerances of boilers im not an engineer in metals) and also quality of the metal used eg stainless or brass/\/copper etc...

    But coming back to my original question why dont they stand behind their italian made products more in terms of confidence in the length of warranty...

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A554D5B505B575E5E5D5D555956380 link=1339543442/1#1 date=1339544130
    Real espresso machines are hugely reliable and the overwhelming majority of faults we see <5 years are due to poor hygiene and lousy water.Whereas Chinese gear really needs a longer warranty because every cent is removed from the unit cost in the design process, prosumer gear is a different kettle of fish.
    Its a bit like saying hey i want to charge you 3 times the price for a product its made well, made with quality components but dont expect any more than a chinese length warranty in our expectation of it lasting but they are implying that hey the item is better quality materials, better made, price is 3 times therefore it will last you for years... That is imo a warranty no befitting what is implied.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Actually I dont think too many sponsors are going to bother wasting time going round in circles again on this topic. Its been done before more or less, and while "the law" is whatever it is, often it seems to have been written by people that know (to use one of Chriss terms) didley squat about the stuff that want to impose rules over.

    If you purchase good quality equipment from a good quality supplier, my feeling is you will be supported well, and if you dont, you may not be supported so well. Some consumers we come across these days are simply and for want of a better word....militant.... and sometimes it seems it doesnt matter what you do for them, its never enough.

    How long is a piece of string? How long should the period of guarantee be on any particular equipment?

    Who knows.....but I can tell you, I dont think our law makers know much about the type of equipment we discuss here despite their imposing rules and regulations over all, presumably to cater for lesser helpful suppliers OR an ever increasing number of militant consumers.

    Amongst other things, I run a very busy workshop that is also an approved service and warranty provider to a few different brands.

    Some of the stories I can tell you about consumers trying their dambdest to stiff manufacturers for free repairs and service when we can tell the problems were caused by the operator themselves, would curl your straight hair. Not to mention that along the way, they dont mind stiffing the service provider as well and by that I mean, if the service provider gives in and does a repair for nix against the manufacturers ruling, its the independent service provider that is left out of pocket because he doesnt get "fixed up" by either of the other 2 parties.

    As Chris stated, there are very few legit service problems that come to light in the equipment we cater to here, that are actually "warrantable". Most are caused by the operatiors themselves. It doesnt stop them making demands however.

    And considering that individual internal components have designed in "service cycles", and they are not all designed & built by the same component manufacturer, what would we then propose? To have a different warrantable period for each different component used in the manufacturer of the total machine? Bollocks.

    This is a non topic because it will become a one sided only (consumer) discussion that doesnt take the other side into consideration.

    If you want to buy a nice coffee machine, go with one of the well accepted brands and models, and buy from a reputable source.

    And with that, Im out of here.


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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Its really irrelevant what warranty manufacturers offer. The law applies regardless.

    So like most manufacturers, with Coffee machines you get a Manufacturers Warranty of 12 months (usually), then you are covered by the Consumer Guarantee for the reasonable life of the machine.

    Its pretty straight forward to deal with a claim if you feel the fault falls within the classifications of the Consumer Guarantee, if the retailer declines your claim you will most likely end up in the Small Claims Tribunal and have your case heard there.

    As a business operator the main mistake i see customers making is confusing warranty/guarantee with insurance - if you are the cause of the failure of the equipment neither the manufacturer warranty nor consumer guarantee will apply.

    The new legislation is great for consumers where it is a genuine fault, much longer coverage, costs like freight to be borne by the supplier and greater recourse to replacement with new.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5F6B7C6A71465A767F7F7C7C190 link=1339543442/3#3 date=1339544974
    Actually I dont think too many sponsors are going to bother wasting time going round in circles again on this topic. Its been done before more or less, and while "the law" is whatever it is, often it seems to have been written by people that know (to use one of Chriss terms) didley squat about the stuff that want to impose rules over.If you purchase good quality equipment from a good quality supplier, my feeling is you will be supported well, and if you dont, you may not be supported so well. Some consumers we come across these days are simply and for want of a better word....militant.... and sometimes it seems it doesnt matter what you do for them, its never enough.How long is a piece of string? How long should the period of guarantee be on any particular equipment?Who knows.....but I can tell you, I dont think our law makes know much about the type of equipment we discuss here despite their imposing rules and regulations over all, presumably to cater for lesser helpful suppliers OR an ever increasing number of militant consumers.Amongst other things, I run a very busy workshop that is also an approved service and warranty provider to a few different brands. Some of the stories I can tell you about consumers trying their dambdest to stiff manufacturers for free repairs and service when we can tell the problems were caused by the operator themselves, would curls your straight hair.This is a non topic because it will become a one sided only (consumer) discussion that doesnt take the other side into consideration.And with that, Im out of here.
    I can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately and maintenance is a key thing for any item being a car, machinery, computers (Im a Network Engineer do i know all about IT and providing services and expectation to deliver reliability, consistent uptime and performance that business come to expect that for the money that is spent)

    So your saying that due to poor hygene, cleaning of machine and general looking after 12 months is all i would expect a machine and its seller to stand behind it and say your on your own... Hmm doesnt sound good and lacks confidence in the product and its users.

    So whats the difference of paying as one supplier has $476 to extend the warranty from 12 mths to 5 years, are they likely to be in the same boat you say with having to deal with the same issues but expecting their machine to be fixed under warranty or extended warranty? I went through this problem with Domayne, I purchased a Saeco Incanto Sirius 5 years ago, paid extended warranty to take it to 5 yrs total, without word of a lie, it had to go back 3 times a year for failure of steam tap, logic board, boiler replacement (was the last repair, machine was regularly cleaned with a descaler as per manufacturers instructions) they refused to replace the item which was clearly so defective and a lemon, ive now ditched it a manual machine. Whilst Saeco cant be compared to one of the models i mentioned, this is what has raised the question with me for my next purchase.

    I agree whilst a local supplier and service agent can stand behind the machine in providing service but at a cost after your warranty has expired (or during first 12 mths for warranty for that matter) i still dont quite get why only 12 mths warranty.

    As for being done to death on here, i mustve missed the topic when i searched CS (my apologies for this, i know google is my friend, i am an IT worker and know this fully!)

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7963787F68726F7F631A0 link=1339543442/5#5 date=1339546076
    So your saying that due to poor hygene, cleaning of machine and general looking after 12 months is all i would expect a machine and its seller to stand behind it and say your on your own... Hmm doesnt sound good and lacks confidence in the product and its users.
    Absolutely. As an example a Giotto Premium Plus goes into a local office. It comes back dead after 8 months. The solenoid is completely clagged with scale as is the rest of the filthy, disgusting machine. Some numb nut decided to run it on mineral water. A wipe down with a cloth or a backflush? Forget it.

    We see dead machines due to RO, distilled water and severe scale. We deal with filth every day (no problem to have a machine beside the stove where you deep fry?). Where faults exist due to premature failure in well-maintained machines where the owners leave them alone- sure no problem. When owners declare themselves techs or internerd eggspurts, we look very, very closely. Where the faults are due to abuse- however well-intentioned, sorry- heres your account.

    Moral of the story is deal with reputable businesses and be fair, respectful and polite- from day one. If you have, you will find the rest of this thread is pretty much hot air as you will have helped foster a good relationship.

    Like Attilio I have more important things to do- so Ill be washing my hair.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F79746D757961180 link=1339543442/4#4 date=1339545707
    Its really irrelevant what warranty manufacturers offer. The law applies regardless.So like most manufacturers, with Coffee machines you get a Manufacturers Warranty of 12 months (usually), then you are covered by the Consumer Guarantee for the reasonable life of the machine.Its pretty straight forward to deal with a claim if you feel the fault falls within the classifications of the Consumer Guarantee, if the retailer declines your claim you will most likely end up in the Small Claims Tribunal and have your case heard there.As a business operator the main mistake i see customers making is confusing warranty/guarantee with insurance - if you are the cause of the failure of the equipment neither the manufacturer warranty nor consumer guarantee will apply.The new legislation is great for consumers where it is a genuine fault, much longer coverage, costs like freight to be borne by the supplier and greater recourse to replacement with new.
    This i understand is now the case, only issue i guess is how the decision is made between agreement on being caused by consumer and failure i guess is what is generally the difference of opinions... ;)

    In any case i just thought when looking at the more expensive machines that it wouldve come with a longer written guarantee than having to resort to the consumer guarantee and small claims tribunal as in the end everyone loses including your customer satisfaction, i know i will never buy another Saeco and i flatly told the Saeco rep in HN the other day just what i thought of the last saeco i had when he pointed to their machines and i was interested in the Breville BES900...

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 376870666D666A6363606068646B050 link=1339543442/6#6 date=1339546599
    Absolutely. As an example a Giotto Premium Plus goes into a local office. It comes back dead after 8 months. The solenoid is completely clagged with scale as it the fest of the filthy machine. Some numb nut decided to run it on mineral water.
    Ouch!* :o

    Okay i can understand where your coming from there. I was more thinking of home Prosumer/\/Consumer use than a commerical office scenario which is a completely different kettle of fish, no one owns the machine there except the company so no one gives a stuff, dont clean it, doesnt know the machine, so its not their money why would they give a rats if it stuffs up.

    But as a consumer /\/ prosumer and used at home, and paying 2.5-3K for a machine im going to look after it, clean it, follow manufacturers recommendations.

    I use an under sink filtration canister system, fill up the jug and then use it to fill my machine (which also has its own filter in it in the case of the current one) therefore imo a completely different angle from my view point.... Hence questioning on the warranty length..

    As for home techs, you modify something that isnt in the manufacturers specifications to the machine itself or its internals of course your on your own, they are not certified /\/ nor trained to service the equipment. Bit like servicing your car and your not a qualified /\/ licenced mechanic by trade, then your warranty is null and void thats common sense.

    Im talking about standard run of the mill, you buy the machine, you use it, you clean it, okay want to change the basket in the group handle to something deeper eg 20g VST basket to get a better /\/ stronger coffee, as this isnt altering the machine itself then warranty shouldnt be a problem after 12 months for genuine failure...

    Im basically talking about what is classed imo non user serviceable parts in the machine its internals. Not adjusting the OPV cause its too high thats a service agents job not a home job unless it has a dial /\/ screw externally accessible that is deemed user adjustable which it wouldnt as turning up the pressure would imo cause a premature failure (but if the agent adjusted it and then it prematurely failed then its a case of warranty even if warranty has [s]failed[/s] expired)

    I can understand the both sides of the fence here... But still doesnt quite address why the consumer written warranty is too short imo for such an expensive machine in the first place.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Huey wrote up above:
    [QUOTE=657F6463746E73637F060 link=1339543442/5#5 date=1339546076].........
    So your saying that due to poor hygene, cleaning of machine and general looking after 12 months is all i would expect a machine and its seller to stand behind it and say your on your own... Hmm doesnt sound good and lacks confidence in the product and its users.......quote]


    hehehehehe.....I dont think so and this nice little twisting of "logic" is not going to get me to respond. As I stated earlier, this is a consumer biased topic....you can twist the logic all you like, but I dont think there will be any further supplier comments here.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 534952554258455549300 link=1339543442/8#8 date=1339547063
    But as a consumer /\/ prosumer and used at home, and paying 2.5-3K for a machine im going to look after it, clean it, follow manufacturers recommendations.
    Heh- I hear that every day. Our experience is that is far from the case with many owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by 534952554258455549300 link=1339543442/8#8 date=1339547063
    I use an under sink filtration canister system..
    Unless its a coffee specific system for your water quality, theres your first mistake- refer my earlier post. Now Ill go wash my hair!

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 144B53454E4549404043434B4748260 link=1339543442/10#10 date=1339547268
    Unless its a coffee specific system for your water quality, theres your first mistake- refer my earlier post.
    Okay, am i missing something, how does using an under sink filtration system make it worse than not using filtered water? Do the under sink systems contain calcium and other substances harmful to the machine than using straight tap water?

    The Central Coast area i live in according to the last litmus test was Soft town water obviously treated with flouride and not sure if clorine is added as well (although i cant taste it).

    So according to your post it would seem i am doing more damage using filtered water than just using straight tap water... Or is it no difference?

    I just had a look at the filtration system and its canister.

    Its an Everpure System from Water Filters Australia.

    ***EDIT***

    I think i just answered my own question

    This is the model filter i use...

    Everpure® filters DO NOT remove fluoride and essential minerals according to the website.

    Therefore other than harmful contaminants such as cryptosporidium and giardia cysts, Chlorine, off-tastes and odours, asbestos, dirt and rust, i guess you could just use tap water... But logic dictates that using filtered water has got to be considerably better than none at all...

    Of course regular cleaning maintenance is still required of course!

    But coming back to my original question all i have heard /\/ read is excuses of poor maintenance /\/ hygene, it still doesnt explain only 12 mths warranty compared to machine cost.

    Which is a shame really, considering other brands albeit chinese have longer warranties and i guess can instil some confidence that manufacture is standing behind the product, of course for the cost is 1/3 as in the Breville BES900 i have just purchased, it does do a nice coffee imo after a couple of slight changes, that is 18g basket and heavier tamper than the stock one but that just personal preference.

    For 3K machine i would expect to blown away by quality, coffee it expresses over what the breville could do eg why an E61 machine with HX boiler is better than the breville quality, and last of all which is an important feature to me, warranty!

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Warranty lengths and terms are not just based on a manufacturers confidence in a product but also on what the "competition" are doing. Brevilles decision to offer you 2 years is either based on 1) wanting to "out do" the competition or 2) the confidence Breville has in the product you bought or lastly (and I suspect) 3) a combination of both 1) and 2).

    No company manufacturer will increase the term of a warranty because they are expecting problems due to cost cutting, the same as no retailer will continue to sell a product that continuously causes them and their customers grief.

    Regardless of product, wether its a vaccuum cleaner, a lawn mower, a coffee machine etc I agree that most product failures are due to the appliance being mis-used or abused by the end-user.

    I have never and will never buy an extended warranty. In previous jobs I was asked to on-sell them and refused to do that too. Not all but most of these are not worth the paper they are written on.

    To the OP: Everything is built to a price - everything. Work out your max budget, the list of features you want and who you will feel confident dealing with - these are all more important than the exact term of warranty a product comes with.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7472626D6472010 link=1339543442/12#12 date=1339549635
    Warranty lengths and terms are not just based on a manufacturers confidence in a product but also on what the "competition" are doing. Brevilles decision to offer you 2 years is either based on 1) wanting to "out do" the competition or 2) the confidence Breville has in the product you bought or lastly (and I suspect) 3) a combination of both 1) and 2).
    This i think youve hit the nail on the head so to speak...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7472626D6472010 link=1339543442/12#12 date=1339549635
    I have never and will never buy an extended warranty. In previous jobs I was asked to on-sell them and refused to do that too. Not all but most of these are not worth the paper they are written on.
    Whilst i one of those ppl that used to buy extended warranties where as ACCC /\/ Fair Trading are saying you dont need to, its the arguments you get into for warranty coverage is what causes stress. Having said that, i declined the HN extended warranty for both the BES900 and BCG800, as i considered the cost and life expectancy to be 2 - 3 years at least.

    As for the paper that its written on, the Saeco i had for 5 years Domanye did repair the machine under extended warranty every time i took it back with a fault, what i didnt get was a replacement under warranty when the same faults or different faults kept occuring with the machine in other words i expected the machine not to have 3 faults a year and be out of action for 6 weeks at a time for each fault whilst it got sent away to be assessed and repaired and returned.

    I guess the local onsite service option is the more preferential problem, and in the end if paying 3K for a machine ill pay the extended warranty (although i shouldnt have to!) to cover myself without STRESS of getting it repaired with the repairer under the warranty.

    Perhaps premium manfacturers need to up their warranty periods befitting of the quality of their machines as a peace of mind.....

    Muscles, i am looking at the next purchase max budget to me is a moot point if im planning it for 3 years time im going to save up for one of these babies and keep reading CS forums to ascertain which brand is one better than the other, warranty is one key aspect imo that is important to me as well as quality for that price point.

    Whilst over the weekend i settled for the BES900/\/BCG800 combo as a price point of budget befitting this month as ive been out of work for 3 1/3 months due to redundancy and about to start a new job in a couple of weeks, i wouldve loved to spend 3x as much for quality but circumstances dictated otherwise.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    I think that Breville have given their two year warrantee not only because that they are confident that the machine will last but because buyers are reluctant to get a totally new machine that is untested on our kitchen benches.

    I have been caught by buying a new untested car model that turned out to be a lemon at my cost.

    I stuck my neck out this time by being an early adopter of the Breville Dual Boiler. So far I am not disappointed.

    Barry.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Huey,
    Your argument is reminiscent of a similar one; "Why we need a Carbon Tax". Warranty over 12 months will cost you dearly (like the carbon tax) and is simply pandering to a minority, in the same way the red headed witch clings to power.
    Telling a manufacturer he should provide a longer warranty is like telling a mining giant they should pay a mining tax. In the end they say screw you and seek easier markets in which to do business.
    Seriously, from reading your posts you seem to have an issue with appliances that you buy, breaking down. This is to be expected, as they are built to a price point, and consumers regularly change and upgrade their appliances. You are now looking at buying a prosumer type of coffee machine, manufactured in Europe. You hope because you will have to pay $3k or so for it, it should last and come with a long warranty. You have as much luck in finding such a product as the ranga has of winning the next election.
    You need to change your focus and look at commercial machines. They are built to cope with lots of use, and are manufactured accordingly. They do last many years, and can be easier to maintain than a smaller domestic unit. They also break down, but judging by how many old machines are in existence, they do have a long life.
    Be patriotic and forget the Chinese and European manufacturers. Buy Australian. Boema make rock solid machines that will give you peace of mind and years of service. There are many service techs familiar with this machine, and they will come to your house and service it. No problems with support. No need to worry about break downs, as they are designed and built to handle lots of use.
    My unit was bought second hand and it has given me many years of reliable service.
    If you want a product designed for longevity, then ensure you are looking in the right place.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Im going to stick my neck out and say that I have had nothing but good service from the few site sponsors that I have had dealings with. I am confident that if there was a genuine fault in the machine within a reasonable period after the "warranty" expired that they would try to make things right. I guess my point would be choose to buy from someone that you are happy to deal with, and who is happy to spend time to make sure you buy the right product for you as they are more likely to be willing to help in the future.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    How long a warranty period would the OP expect on a $60000 new car?

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F485D525F3C0 link=1339543442/15#15 date=1339556916
    Huey,
    Your argument is reminiscent of a similar one; "Why we need a Carbon Tax". Warranty over 12 months will cost you dearly (like the carbon tax) and is simply pandering to a minority, in the same way the red headed witch clings to power.

    Telling a manufacturer he should provide a longer warranty is like telling a mining giant they should pay a mining tax. In the end they say screw you and seek easier markets in which to do business.
    Carbon tax is one thing that i dont agree with although i understand the reasoning behind it to order to influence end user usage and thinking more towards the environment, as for the mining tax well the miners have it all wrong imo, they are mining a mineral that belongs to the australian people, it wasnt theirs in the first place, they have purchased the rights to dig it up and sell it, therefore the australian people have a right to some of the money from the proceeds of what does not belong to the mining companies.

    In any case i think the Ranga is out at the next election, i cant stand her and the lies, on the flip side of the coin, abbott is no better either, the guy needs his head examined, "The Worlds Biggest Carbon Tax" he keeps banging on about, i get it, i dont like it and sure as hell dont want to spend more of my hard earned dollars into govt hands or give it away by the same token!

    The greens whilst seemed well intentioned from the outset are a bunch of whack jobs imo.. So who is better? None of them are but someone has to lead the country, and a bunch of independants who serve to serve themselves imo isnt the way to do it either. Take a look at greece, all minority parties who have their own agendas, for all the countries woes cannot simply work together for the benefit of the country but themselves and what they can get out it being in power....

    As for warranties well if im paying for quality i have an expectation for that quality, so whilst the unspoken/\/unwritten rule is pay 3 times as much and quality and realiability is all but guaranteed on paper.

    Im sure that majority of people who pay for quality dont have a problem for years but the minority who do, why not stand behind the product and offer a longer warranty befitting of the quality and price to boot, you are selling to a more niche market of coffee lovers in this case and i have now for one moving that way step by step* *;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F485D525F3C0 link=1339543442/15#15 date=1339556916
    Huey,
    Seriously, from reading your posts you seem to have an issue with appliances that you buy, breaking down. This is to be expected, as they are built to a price point, and consumers regularly change and upgrade their appliances. You are now looking at buying a prosumer type of coffee machine, manufactured in Europe. You hope because you will have to pay $3k or so for it, it should last and come with a long warranty. You have as much luck in finding such a product as the ranga has of winning the next election.
    You need to change your focus and look at commercial machines. They are built to cope with lots of use, and are manufactured accordingly. They do last many years, and can be easier to maintain than a smaller domestic unit. They also break down, but judging by how many old machines are in existence, they do have a long life.
    Be patriotic and forget the Chinese and European manufacturers. Buy Australian. Boema make rock solid machines that will give you peace of mind and years of service. There are many service techs familiar with this machine, and they will come to your house and service it. No problems with support. No need to worry about break downs, as they are designed and built to handle lots of use.
    My unit was bought second hand and it has given me many years of reliable service.
    If you want a product designed for longevity, then ensure you are looking in the right place.
    Okay, i hadnt looked at Boema and didnt realise it was Aussie made. Having said that, does your warranty exceed 12 mths for the price point of 2.5-3K E61 type machine, (although looking at your website the Deluxe looks nice but couldnt see the E61 types like Giotta, VBM Domobar, Diadema etc)

    Also under the following Warranty couldnt see what you include as a warranty period... Thanks for your response though and another brand to consider as well, and you are right in aspects of supporting our local manufacturers when quality, price, and warranty meets the user expectation.

    Id like to thank those who have responded, i can understand the differing viewpoints and this thread is about being objective and than being huff and puff because you might not agree with a consumer viewpoint......
    Buzzit likes this.

  20. #20
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    *Hunting to find the sections of the above post which are neither offensive nor inappropriate*

    *Coming up pretty much with a blank.*

    How about a little racism a religious jibe or two and some sexism to top it off? ::)

    I figure that this must be our time waster thread for the week.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5750454A47240 link=1339543442/15#15 date=1339556916
    You need to change your focus and look at commercial machines. They are built to cope with lots of use, and are manufactured accordingly. They do last many years, and can be easier to maintain than a smaller domestic unit.
    Than a high quality prosumer machine?* :-? Bollocks. Might be time to become a sponsor Boema.

  21. #21
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E322F343E3F283D353E5A0 link=1339543442/17#17 date=1339558786
    How long a warranty period would the OP expect on a $60000 new car?
    Not sure what happened to my previous post regarding this.

    60K car i would expect waranty to be befiting for the product sold, eg BWM, Audi, Mercedes in cars and Toyota Prado /\/ Hilux for 4wd.

    Prestige car companies project prestige, refinement, quality and one would expect lifespan. As for 4WD, toyota are one of the most trusted brands for off road tough vehicles this is an image you see today on TV, therefore if you took it 4WDing and it fell apart i would expect it to be repaired, same with warranty, its not a Great Wall @ 25K its a 50K Hilux and built according to the manufacturer to withstand aussie conditions. So why not offer a longer warranty and stand behind your product?

    As for Holden /\/ Ford its built for a price point of 30K, used as fleet vehicles and they are offering longer warranties for a cheaper priced car, so why dont the more expensive manufacturers do this, what are they afraid of? 60K is twice the holden, hmm for quality if im willing to pay it i expect it and warranty to go with the territory....


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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C3022242530510 link=1339543442/16#16 date=1339556970
    Im going to stick my neck out and say that I have had nothing but good service from the few site sponsors that I have had dealings with.* I am confident that if there was a genuine fault in the machine within a reasonable period after the "warranty" expired that they would try to make things right.* I guess my point would be choose to buy from someone that you are happy to deal with, and who is happy to spend time to make sure you buy the right product for you as they are more likely to be willing to help in the future.
    And I am sure this is the case but im not questioning the service they provide from a local seller/\/service agent, i am simply asking why do the more expensive machines that they sell only have 12 months warranty for triple the price for quality and reliability.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 663921373C373B3232313139353A540 link=1339543442/19#19 date=1339560129
    *Hunting to find the sections of the above post which are neither offensive nor inappropriate*

    *Coming up pretty much with a blank.*

    How about a little racism a religious jibe or two and some sexism to top it off? ::)

    I figure that this must be our troll thread for the week.
    My arent you offended as a seller /\/ distributor, whats up dont you like the hard question being asked, are you one of these distributors/\/sellers who say well theres price its double the overseass sellers price cause i am want to make the cream in pricing, a bit OTT imo, because we sure get reemed here to the max on prices just for the sake of it, hell were australian we can afford the 1% prices just for the heck of being a small market tough luck eh?

    And a Troll i am not thank you very much, you fail to see the question i ask, im not complaining about the price for quality, i simply asked the question why only 12 months warranty and not something longer befitting of the price...

    Therein lies the problem with people like you, you dont want to deal with the hard yards and call them a troll because they simply ask the quesiton why* :o

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Just think of warranties as a means for a manufacturer to repair a faulty product or component after it has left the factory. After this initial warranty period you are banking on the build quality of the machine and the quality of the components used.

    If you want a longer warranty, buy a Breville (as you have done). However if your Breville with 2 year warranty dies in 2 years and 1 week, id rather have an italian machine with 1 year warranty which is still going strong after 10 years.

    Just buy whichever machine you can afford and be happy with whatever warranty it comes with. Chances are, if you look after the machine as you said you will, it will last you a long time.

    Build a relationship with a local site sponsor and youll be better off in the long run.

  25. #25
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 233922253228352539400 link=1339543442/20#20 date=1339561480
    Quote Originally Posted by 0E322F343E3F283D353E5A0 link=1339543442/17#17 date=1339558786
    How long a warranty period would the OP expect on a $60000 new car?
    Not sure what happened to my previous post regarding this.

    60K car i would expect waranty to be befiting for the product sold, eg BWM, Audi, Mercedes in cars and Toyota Prado* Hilux for 4wd.

    Prestige car companies project prestige, refinement, quality and one would expect lifespan. As for 4WD, toyota are one of the most trusted brands for off road tough vehicles this is an image you see today on TV, therefore if you took it 4WDing and it fell apart i would expect it to be repaired, same with warranty, its not a Great Wall @ 25K its a 50K Hilux and built according to the manufacturer to withstand aussie conditions. So why not offer a longer warranty and stand behind your product?

    As for Holden* Ford its built for a price point of 30K, used as fleet vehicles and they are offering longer warranties for a cheaper priced car, so why dont the more expensive manufacturers do this, what are they afraid of? 60K is twice the holden, hmm for quality if im willing to pay it i expect it and warranty to go with the territory....
    You didnt give me a figure.
    I thought that if you expected a $3k espresso machine to have say a 3 year warranty then at 1 year per $k you might expect a 60 year warranty on the car.* ;)

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 35282C2C3823410 link=1339543442/23#23 date=1339565849
    Just think of warranties as a means for a manufacturer to repair a faulty product or component after it has left the factory. After this initial warranty period you are banking on the build quality of the machine and the quality of the components used.

    If you want a longer warranty, buy a Breville (as you have done). However if your Breville with 2 year warranty dies in 2 years and 1 week, id rather have an italian machine with 1 year warranty which is still going strong after 10 years.
    And Im sure the higher quality item will and should last a lot longer for triple the price to the one i bought....

    Having that there are several brands competing in that group of products eg E61, subtle ones do provide more features /\/ better pump ie rotary over vibrating, i get that.

    But again the question which i know now wont be answered is why only 12 mths warranty for a product that is projected as the best of breed....

    In any case im not going to get the answer here and hopefully warranty written guarantee life will improve in time....

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    [/QUOTE]

    You didnt give me a figure.
    I thought that if you expected a $3k espresso machine to have say a 3 year warranty then at 1 year per $k you might expect a 60 year warranty on the car.* ;)[/QUOTE]

    Okay i understand what you saying, thats a hard question i guess, certainly longer than i would expect for a holden, eg 3 years or is it 5 years now?

    I get your point where does the warranty expectation end, and having said that its all about perception and getting what you paid for... Ill leave it that...

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 425843445349544458210 link=1339543442/21#21 date=1339561747
    Quote Originally Posted by 1C3022242530510 link=1339543442/16#16 date=1339556970
    Im going to stick my neck out and say that I have had nothing but good service from the few site sponsors that I have had dealings with.* I am confident that if there was a genuine fault in the machine within a reasonable period after the "warranty" expired that they would try to make things right.* I guess my point would be choose to buy from someone that you are happy to deal with, and who is happy to spend time to make sure you buy the right product for you as they are more likely to be willing to help in the future.
    And I am sure this is the case but im not questioning the service they provide from a local sellerservice agent, i am simply asking why do the more expensive machines that they sell only have 12 months warranty for triple the price for quality and reliability.

    You could buy a Giove which 9bar offer a 2 year warranty as standard :D
    http://www.9barespressoservices.com.au/equipment/domestic/giove-espresso-machine

    At least thats approaching your 1 year per $1000 spend.

  29. #29
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 045B43555E5559505053535B5758360 link=1339543442/19#19 date=1339560129
    Boema_Boema wrote Today at 1:08pm:
    You need to change your focus and look at commercial machines. They are built to cope with lots of use, and are manufactured accordingly. They do last many years, and can be easier to maintain than a smaller domestic unit.

    Than a high quality prosumer machine?* Huh Bollocks. Might be time to become a sponsor Boema.
    I thought you were washing your hair mate ;D Finished already?
    What bollocks??
    Going through this site I read nothing but story after story of prosumer machines breaking down, they are built like typical Italian cars, whereas the Boema is built like the good old HQ Kingswood. Pull open the top of a Boema and look at how well made it is. Why do you knock Boemas?
    Your good mate and grand poobah owns one or two, and is happy to use them. Why knock an Australian product? You are deadset against grey imports, so why not promote an Australian manufacturer?

    "Might be time to become a sponsor Boema."

    but GoD, what light through yonder window breaks?
    I bend to the east and reveal the sun.

    What speck of evidence has led to such a preposterous revelation?** :o
    Nothing but snake oil from you. ::) ::)

    I think we should be proud that there is an Australian manufacturer of coffee machines, your contempt is very unAustralian :(

    Does this comment also imply that in order to gain respect and street cred on this site, a business has to become a sponsor?* :o

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 103C2E28293C5D0 link=1339543442/27#27 date=1339568297
    u could buy a Giove which 9bar offer a 2 year warranty as standard http://www.9barespressoservices.com.au/equipment/domestic/giove-espresso-machineAt least thats approaching your 1 year per $1000 spend.
    Looks nice and looks to goods, be interesting to read the reviews on it, but wouldnt you agree on the warranty aspect? Giove I @ 2.5K and Giove II @ 3K with 2 yr warranty shows a bit more confidence on the product...

    Maybe im just see it differently to other people... Ive been bitten hard on warranty issues before so now i ask lots of questions, after all its my money i worked hard for and would like to spend... I wouldnt expect any differently for anyone else...

  31. #31
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 514B5057405A47574B320 link=1339543442/29#29 date=1339569290
    Quote Originally Posted by 103C2E28293C5D0 link=1339543442/27#27 date=1339568297
    u could buy a Giove which 9bar offer a 2 year warranty as standard http://www.9barespressoservices.com.au/equipment/domestic/giove-espresso-machineAt least thats approaching your 1 year per $1000 spend.
    Looks nice and looks to goods, be interesting to read the reviews on it, but wouldnt you agree on the warranty aspect? Giove I @ 2.5K and Giove II @ 3K with 2 yr warranty shows a bit more confidence on the product...

    Maybe im just see it differently to other people... Ive been bitten hard on warranty issues before so now i ask lots of questions, after all its my money i worked hard for and would like to spend... I wouldnt expect any differently for anyone else...

    I thought the Giove looked good. Thats why I bought one, though I have to admit that the warranty wasnt the main reason why I chose it, but it was something that was noticed when I was looking at all the machines available.

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Re B-B posts.

    arh yeah.....actually no. More flawed logic?

    We hear less in these sites about Bo_Ema machines breaking down, because far fewer people that participate in these sites, own them........

    Ive never bagged Bo_Ema and in a previous life used to be a staunch area reseller and seervice provider for them. But it is ludicrous to say or inferr or whatever that they break down any less than many other brands, and they use many of the same Italian made individual components & control systems inside with the same service cycles built in.

    In fact if you really want to go there, I can tell you individual instances where some of their models were and perhaps still are well known to break down more than many well known Italian machines.....

    But this topic isnt about that.

    And that has nothing to do with being un Australian and note I havent (and wouldnt ) bag out Bo_Ema.

    And I dont see what any of that has to do with a warranty in fact if we talk strict commercial warranty, where as far as* know Bo_Ema really only sells commercial, the client will get even less because in many instances that means parts are covered for 12* months, but the the labour is usually only covered for 3..... unless a selling agent / service provider decided to extend that period for himself for his client irrespective of manufacturer back up.*

    Honestly blokes, havent you / we wasted enough time on this one yet?

    I think the next time I buy a coffee machine, that I want 5 years coverage under guarantee. Why? Because I just decided I do, because I just reckin thats what I want. This topic is nothing more than a* "me me me"* thing.

    Next time I buy a car, I think I will demand a 30 year warranty. Why...because Ive decided, thats what I want (me me me me me me me)* ::)

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D495E48536478545D5D5E5E3B0 link=1339543442/31#31 date=1339572925
    Re B-B posts.

    Honestly blokes, havent you / we wasted enough time on this one yet?

    I think the next time I buy a coffee machine, that I want 5 years coverage under guarantee. Why? Because I just decided I do, because I just reckin thats what I want. This topic is nothing more than a* "me me me"* thing.
    I see your sarcasm so ill respond to that and yep 5 years warranty sounds good (places are happy to warranty the item for 5 years for a fee, why for more money - gouge much)for a product that is of exceptional quality and reliable as, top of the range, top prices, other than wear and tear on seals in the group head to fix under maintenance, eg if seals last 2 years then need to be replaced (as well as a descale by service centre if thats whats required) as serviceable item same as a car service maintenace, sure stand by the product its as reliable as people say. Peace of mind confidence!

    Its like psst, come here mate, im selling one these you beaut machines, its the ducks guts, going to cost you a mint, 12 mths warranty and then your on your own if something goes wrong, sure im available to repair as long as you pay.... Youd be thinking twice and you cant tell me otherwise...

    But my point exactly, 12 mths, umm doesnt instill confidence to me...

    As for a car warranties well you raised the topic, so heres the US Hyundai warranty, 10 YEARS, yeppers you heard me 10 year warranty, dont see that here, and im sure US probably pays half of the vehicle price we do here for similar hyundai car...

    Knock yourself out see here http://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/america-best-warranty.aspx

    So why should we be any different, they stand by their product there, why not here? The question begs to be asked.

    Pick some other car manufacturers and take a gander at what they get over there just to get their public to buy their product due to competition...

    But aside from sarcasm because you are offended that asked why the warranty is so short has baffled me...

    Why not go back to your manufacturer /\/ distributor and say hey a customer has asked why are our warranties shorter than one would expect given the premium nature of our product and the fact we charge a far greater price than larger markets like Europe and the USA, couldnt we do better by our customers for the premium price expectation... Now thats forward thinking... But nah i get fobbed off, sarcastic remarks on anything but answering the actual question....

    No wonder were going down the crapper me thinks... Times are changing, consumer expects more, either drop the prices consistent with overseas pricing or your grey imports are still going to be a problem, or bring the standards of expectation for product and pricing up to meet the market, i wouldve preferred the later i guess only time will tell...

    Over and out on this topic for me...

  34. #34
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Huey my friend,
    Issues related to the one you have raised are clearly relevant to you and many consumers (like me). This and similar issues have been argued til the cows come home several times before. If you seriously want to compare prices / warranty conditions (ie the total cost of ownership) in other countries, you have to think about wages / working conditions /taxes / duties in those countries as well. You cant pick any single aspect of market ad hoc and make a meaningful comparison to what goes on here. Ive been fortunate enough to live and work in a number of countries, and overall weve got it pretty good here. Doesnt mean we dont have our share of dodgy buggers, but thats the world.
    All the best,
    BOSW

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 60667A64617E62630D0 link=1339543442/33#33 date=1339576729
    Huey my friend,
    Issues related to the one you have raised are clearly relevant to you and many consumers (like me). This and similar issues have been argued til the cows come home several times before. If you seriously want to compare prices / warranty conditions (ie the total cost of ownership) in other countries, you have to think about wages / working conditions /taxes / duties* in those countries as well. You cant pick any single aspect of market ad hoc and make a meaningful comparison to what goes on here. Ive been fortunate enough to live and work in a number of countries, and overall weve got it pretty good here. Doesnt mean we dont have our share of dodgy buggers, but thats the world.
    All the best,
    BOSW
    Granted, i couldnt agree more wages are more expensive here, hence why i am out of a job, i worked in IT, my company got the Indians in to do my job or shipped it to India (im a cisco network engineer not everyone can do that job, but 1/7th of the wages and tax deductible to the aussie company, no wonder why...)

    Having said that, im not arguing about the price, i get that 2.5-3K and ive considered paying that not a worry, but the question and my expectation is this is a premium product, why is the warranty only 12 months, i expected more, 12 months on a commercial premises or commercial item, but a consumer item and high price, well warranty needs to be a bit better imo.

    Incidentally the Giove Masuta mentioned has 2 years warranty, that double for the same price of machines aimed at that class of machines. 3 - 5 years would have been better but 2 yrs is twice better than 12 mths if you get my point.

    Ill keep hunting between machine reviews, quality, features, price, reliability and Warranty!

  36. #36
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    1) The more expensive coffee machine manufacturers are still businesses and are run by business men and are run to maximise profits... therefore it is pretty silly to expect these businesses to offer warranties any more generous than they are compelled to offer under law or statute.

    2) Hyundais come with longer warranties than Audis, BMWs, Mercedes or Ferraris and any fool can see that this policy of Hyundais is a marketing exercise and has NOTHING to do with the cost or perceived value of the goods on offer

    Both approaches above aim to maximise profit... and it really comes down to volumes and what a business is willing and/or compelled to do to get the job done

    Bottom line... never get in the way of man trying to make a buck... youll get run over

  37. #37
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1D2225223F2A38382E4B0 link=1339543442/35#35 date=1339578376
    1) The more expensive coffee machine manufacturers are still businesses and are run by business men and are run to maximise profits... therefore it is pretty silly to expect these businesses to offer warranties any more generous than they are compelled to offer under law or statute.

    2) Hyundais come with longer warranties than Audis, BMWs, Mercedes or Ferraris and any fool can see that this policy of Hyundais is a marketing exercise and has NOTHING to do with the cost or perceived value of the goods on offer

    Both approaches above aim to maximise profit... and it really comes down to volumes and what a business is willing and/or compelled to do to get the job done

    Bottom line... never get in the way of man trying to make a buck... youll get run over
    1) In what way are the more expensive coffee machine manufacturers any different to any other business? The assertion that there is no incentive to offer anything in excess of the statutory warranty isnt quite right. If consumers valued a longer warranty more than the full cost of providing that warranty, then any profit-seeking businessperson might consider offering such. Of course if consumers dont value a long-term warranty as highly as the extra price theyd have to bear.....well, then you are right (but for a different reason).
    2) Your point re Hyundais.....how can a marketing exercise not have anything to do with the perceived value of the goods on offer? If the longer warranty doesnt change consumers perceived value of the car, why would it change their willingness to buy it?

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 67585F584550424254310 link=1339543442/35#35 date=1339578376
    1) The more expensive coffee machine manufacturers are still businesses and are run by business men and are run to maximise profits... therefore it is pretty silly to expect these businesses to offer warranties any more generous than they are compelled to offer under law or statute.
    Ah but define law or statute which apparently has changed of late as per my first post on this subject, the expectation for a premium product and price is the expectation of statutory warranties and the seller must warranty the item in regards to a reasonable timeframe for the cost and quality expectaton of that item...

    I guess it only lends weight to the customer and seller going Small Claims tribunal more often as the expectation imo would be to expect longer than 12 months warranty, therefore it only leads to angst and cost for customer and seller (more so the seller these days), so why not in the first place hey well warranty the item for 3, 4 or 5 years given the premium nature and pricing of the item than the piddly 12 months, but then again i guess even with 5 years would the tribual say they agree with the seller that if you got 5 years from a machine maintenance or defect free without cost is reasonable, i would think so, but if i went to the tribunal and said 24 mths late my machine has a major failure, seller refuses to repair the item and i paid a premium price where 5 year extended warranty was also available for the item, i think the tribunal would side with me.

    Same with Apple, Laptops and desktops with items within have a life expectancy of 3 years based on every day use, but Apple only warranty the item for 12 mths, sure you can purchase applecare for a $200 - $400 more for piece of mind warranty but, if you didnt buy it, then i think youll find that the tribunal will still side with the consumer for a pre-mature failure of an item. Although Applecare does come with 3 years Support, that you have to pay for and rightly so its bundled in with the extended warranty on applecare so this is understandable but warranty if no applecare they would still have to do if it went to tribunal.

    But having said that, Apple (i own several Apple devices including Macbook Pro, iMAC, these are premium items over your 1/3 - 1/2 the price jobs) they dont generally argue with you for repairs these days for unexpected pre-mature failure of an item where they would expect to last 3 years themselves, generally you book a Genius bar appointment and they see it, and either repair or replace with a refurbished one or a new one if its still current model and not so old. Hows that for a company that stands by their product! $600+ Billion dollar company and one that is the biggest in the world. Their users are as passionate about their apple product as is the company...

  39. #39
    Senior Member bennett's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F352E293E243929354C0 link=1339543442/34#34 date=1339577386
    Ill keep hunting between machine reviews, quality, features, price, reliability and Warranty!
    Thats spot on. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. If the warranty is important to you - then dont buy a machine with a warranty shorter than you would like. If that rules out 99% of the quality prosumer machines out there - then so be it. Its your choice. So keep hunting with the above criteria and buy a machine which suits your criteria.

    Incidentally most of the quality Italian brands dont need a longer warranty. Most real problems are apparent within 12 months. Anything after that will usually be expected wear and tear eg pressurestat, or shower screen or gaskets etc.

    Also most reputable companies have a sense of duty/responsibilty which doesnt necessarily come under the banner of a warranty. For example my VBM jnr had a pressurestat die at 20 months. This is basically a consumeable so no obligation to fix for free. When I took it to the service agent they replaced it at half price and zero labour as a show of good faith. My friend also had to replace her pressurestat at about 16 months again they charged her a small amount, zero labour AND upgraded her to a commercial pressurestat!!!

    My point is, buy from a reputable company who cares about their reputation and they will look after you, and the warranty is basically irrelevant. Warranties are important to guard against lemons which should be apparent WAAAY before 12 months.

    My second crack

  40. #40
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 72757E7E756464100 link=1339543442/38#38 date=1339580317
    Quote Originally Posted by 2F352E293E243929354C0 link=1339543442/34#34 date=1339577386
    Ill keep hunting between machine reviews, quality, features, price, reliability and Warranty!
    Thats spot on. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. If the warranty is important to you - then dont buy a machine with a warranty shorter than you would like. If that rules out 99% of the quality prosumer machines out there - then so be it. Its your choice. So keep hunting with the above criteria and buy a machine which suits your criteria.

    Incidentally most of the quality Italian brands dont need a longer warranty. Most real problems are apparent within 12 months. Anything after that will usually be expected wear and tear eg pressurestat, or shower screen or gaskets etc.

    Also most reputable companies have a sense of duty/responsibilty which doesnt necessarily come under the banner of a warranty. For example my VBM jnr had a pressurestat die at 20 months. This is basically a consumeable so no obligation to fix for free. When I took it to the service agent they replaced it at half price and zero labour as a show of good faith. My friend also had to replace her pressurestat at about 16 months again they charged her a small amount, zero labour AND upgraded her to a commercial pressurestat!!!

    My point is, buy from a reputable company who cares about their reputation and they will look after you, and the warranty is basically irrelevant. Warranties are important to guard against lemons which should be apparent WAAAY before 12 months.

    My second crack
    I agree that no one is holding a gun to my head to buy from them but as you have a rapport with your seller they obviously did the repair for cost of the part, but @ 16 & 20 mths old for what i would consider a pre-mature failure of item and you paid a premium for the item, wow thats being generous and lenient on your part of considering to pay for any parts. Pressurestat? Is that a Pressure sensor? If so, i wouldnt consider this to be a consumerable item nor a shower screen its metal, rubber seals yes, they perish albeit i would expect at least 2 - 3 years on rubber seals at least before perishing, generally perishable items like seals can break down for drying out (lack of oil/\/grease/\/moisture) so given this, perhaps the group head seal might have a higher rate of failure than say a seal inside than isnt being moved back and forth, or the seals inside the E61 group head. Its a really hard one i guess. Generally seals are not expensive one would expect per se, but labour would be damn expensive, therefore warranty and the expectation for the products reliability vs price comes into play here.

    And its not neccessarily the case an item will fail in the first 12 months.

    So if a reputable company cares more about its reputation then why not offer a longer piece of mind guarantee for a premium product they sell that the customer can bank on, not based on the good will and generous nature of that business person /\/ seller of the day, also what if that business /\/ seller went out of business?

    You tottle off to next authorised agent, he/\/she has no obligation to repair your machine for free, you didnt buy the machine from them, havent built a rapport with them (that is outside of the warranty period of 12 mths im referring to)...

    Im afraid 12 mths warranty still doesnt wash with me...

  41. #41
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Following the line of argument, the Sunbeam 6910 is clearly the best machine on the market 8-)

    I reckon you will be best with an appliance or grey import Huey. You have probably scared off all of the CS sponsors by now. ;D

  42. #42
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3A3C203E3B243839570 link=1339543442/36#36 date=1339579238
    Quote Originally Posted by 1D2225223F2A38382E4B0 link=1339543442/35#35 date=1339578376
    1) The more expensive coffee machine manufacturers are still businesses and are run by business men and are run to maximise profits... therefore it is pretty silly to expect these businesses to offer warranties any more generous than they are compelled to offer under law or statute.

    2) Hyundais come with longer warranties than Audis, BMWs, Mercedes or Ferraris and any fool can see that this policy of Hyundais is a marketing exercise and has NOTHING to do with the cost or perceived value of the goods on offer

    Both approaches above aim to maximise profit... and it really comes down to volumes and what a business is willing and/or compelled to do to get the job done

    Bottom line... never get in the way of man trying to make a buck... youll get run over
    1) In what way are the more expensive coffee machine manufacturers any different to any other business? The assertion that there is no incentive to offer anything in excess of the statutory warranty isnt quite right. If consumers valued a longer warranty more than the full cost of providing that warranty, then any profit-seeking businessperson might consider offering such. Of course if consumers dont value a long-term warranty as highly as the extra price theyd have to bear.....well, then you are right (but for a different reason).
    2) Your point re Hyundais.....how can a marketing exercise not have anything to do with the perceived value of the goods on offer? If the longer warranty doesnt change consumers perceived value of the car, why would it change their willingness to buy it?
    Re: 1) Entirely my point... they arent any different... they are there to make money like any other business... and... the key word here was "expect". You can certainly desire or wish for a more generous warranty than mandated but you shouldnt "expect" it. The fact that the vast majority of businesses offer 12 month warranties just goes to show that there isnt enough market pressure from those wishing for, or expecting more so the whole issue is pretty much moot at this point in time.

    Re. 2) As to "perceived value" I was talking about Hyundais view on the value of its own products... not the consumers perception. Sorry for being unclear but I was busy roasting as I typed that up. Hyundais generous warranty is a means to an end for a company seeking to increase their market penetration... and the luxury brands get away with lean warranties because they dont need to try that hard.

  43. #43
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 76494E495441535345200 link=1339543442/41#41 date=1339583789
    Re. 2) As to "perceived value" I was talking about Hyundais view on the value of its own products... not the consumers perception. Sorry for being unclear but I was busy roasting as I typed that up
    No worries....Im busy roasting and watching State of Origin.....

  44. #44
    Senior Member bennett's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 647E6562756F72627E070 link=1339543442/39#39 date=1339582321
    I agree that no one is holding a gun to my head to buy from them but as you have a rapport with your seller they obviously did the repair for cost of the part, but @ 16 & 20 mths old for what i would consider a pre-mature failure of item and you paid a premium for the item, wow thats being generous and lenient on your part of considering to pay for any parts. Pressurestat? Is that a Pressure sensor? If so, i wouldnt consider this to be a consumerable item nor a shower screen its metal, rubber seals yes, they perish albeit i would expect at least 2 - 3 years on rubber seals at least before perishing, generally perishable items like seals can break down for drying out (lack of oil/\/grease/\/moisture) so given this, perhaps the group head seal might have a higher rate of failure than say a seal inside than isnt being moved back and forth, or the seals inside the E61 group head. Its a really hard one i guess. Generally seals are not expensive one would expect per se, but labour would be damn expensive, therefore warranty and the expectation for the products reliability vs price comes into play here.
    Pressurestat at 20 months cost me $45.

    My Sunbeam had a $180 collar repair bill at 14 months!!!!
    Then a $280 quote at 17 months to change a control board!!!
    Thats when I bailed.

    Quote Originally Posted by 647E6562756F72627E070 link=1339543442/39#39 date=1339582321
    Im afraid 12 mths warranty still doesnt wash with me...
    As I said, no one is holding a gun to your head. If it doesnt wash with you then shut your mouth and buy something else - and stop whingeing. ;)

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Re the quote from above: "...Im afraid 12 mths warranty still doesnt wash with me......" and other things /


    From some internet dictionary or other:

    sarcasm[sahr-kaz-uhm] noun
    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
    2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark

    Actually I didnt think the comments were any of that at all and I find your accusation of them being sarcastic to be very harsh indeed.....really, just making a point as I see it which I am prefectly entitled to do in a public forum. And as far as I could see none of them (my comments) were made in an offensive manner. And still arent.

    You have your opinion, and I have mine.*

    You seem to have a lot of time on your hands to argue round and round endlessly on a topic that you and others have no control over, from a strictly one sided point of view.

    I point that out.....and am accused of being sarcastic. Cant help that.

    Like Chris I suggest you buy a Sunbeam EM 6910. They have a 5 year guarantee on the pumps which is about as good as you will get on anything remotely related to this topic.

    Its a good guarantee......as well as a useless one, because about the very last thing that will ever go wrong is a water pump.

    This advice is not sarcastic. Its quite kosha look it up.

    bennett....what a refreshing conclusion to your post* :)





  46. #46
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 686F64646F7E7E0A0 link=1339543442/38#38 date=1339580317
    buy from a reputable company who cares about their reputation and they will look after you, and the warranty is basically irrelevant. Warranties are important to guard against lemons which should be apparent WAAAY before 12 months
    I reckon thats about right.

    I would like to preface by saying that by their nature, modern coffee machines whatever their brand or origin, will at some point fail due to what youre asking them to do: heat up water to near-boiling point (and over), then deliver it at pressures upwards of 150 PSI.

    To do this consistently and with the convenience we expect, theres going to be a certain degree of electronics involved, and whenever electronics are in proximity to high temperatures and moisture, components will have a reduced lifespan. Take for example a pressurestat - Youre asking it to switch a high-current load, which over time will fuse contacts in the switch, causing the boiler to overpressurise, which may or may not result in further damage to safety valves, thermal safety switches etc. etc.

    These components fail not because they are poorly designed or manufactured, but because we are asking alot of them in what is a pretty harsh environment.

    So take it as read that one day something will go pop, in any machine- the question is what happens next.

    In the case of a company like Breville, their design philosophy and supply chain is vastly different from a local company that imports brand X of domestic machine from Italy. They may opt to simply replace a defective machine if its inside that two years, or replace whole systems within the machine. They have ready access to parts inventory, quickly and cheaply from their manufacturing plant in Asia.

    The problems really occur when that machine is reaching end of life. As soon as Breville decides that theyre no longer going to provide warranty service or spares for a particular model that has been superseded, thats it, good luck to you, send it to landfill (case in point, your Saeco - at a certain point, lets say 5 years, these machines that are largely electronically controlled and made of plastic become no longer viable to repair).

    E61-type machines on the other hand are made of better materials, from components that are semi-commercial and thus readily interchangeable, meaning that you can take a machine of any age almost anywhere and you will be able to find someone who knows how to fix it and can obtain the right parts fairly easily.

    What Im driving at is that the warranty on prosumer machines might seem short - but for the conditions the components inside it are operating under, especially if used daily, that has to be expected. The real total cost of ownership comes when the machine needs to be repaired out of warranty.

  47. #47
    Senior Member topshot's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    After reading this thread, I have come to this conclusion.
    Huey has no idea of the real world!

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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C0A16080D120E0F610 link=1339543442/42#42 date=1339584021
    Im busy roasting and watching State of Origin.....
    ;D Go the blues! Hope they win tonights game...

  49. #49
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 342F3033282F34400 link=1339543442/46#46 date=1339584883
    After reading this thread, I have come to this conclusion.
    Huey has no idea of the real world!
    Gee thanks, are you sure about that.... Been on this planet for 44 years, been around the traps a bit, experienced plenty i think...

    Now rick_bond makes a convincing argument for me, now i understand fully, whilst it doesnt address the warranty shortness, i understand more the expectations of the premium price point and what i can expect.

    But thanks to everyones input. Whether you think its whinging or not (that wasnt my intention) merely questioning warranty verses price point/\/quality perception. I guess well know over time if these things end up in tribunals...

    Anyways night all. Off to see whos winning the origin!

  50. #50
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Re: Expensive Machines and Warranties - Why only 12 months?

    Quote Originally Posted by 746E7572657F62726E170 link=1339543442/47#47 date=1339585062
    Quote Originally Posted by 0C0A16080D120E0F610 link=1339543442/42#42 date=1339584021
    Im busy roasting and watching State of Origin.....
    ;D Go the blues! Hope they win tonights game...

    Theres about as much a chance of that happening as you getting a 5 year warranty on your next prosumer machine ;D



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