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Thread: Diadema Junior Plus leaking valve

  1. #1
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    Diadema Junior Plus leaking valve

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hello,

    I'm hoping someone can help me. I bought a brand new Diadema Junior Plus just over a year ago (a year and one week), from one of the sponsors of this forum. I have been very happy with it until now. In the last few days, the hot water valve (not the group head) started to drip, it leaks about 3-400ml of water each hour. As a result I can't leave the machine switched on, and I have to constantly monitor the water level when it is on. I still get a good coffee and steam, of course.

    I rang the company I bought it from and they told me:

    1. I have to send it back to them at my expense (which is fair enough, I'm not local)
    2. I have to pay $55 for a quote fee
    3. It will take 4-6 weeks for a technician to look at it and then tell me what has to be done.
    4. It may not be under warranty.

    Needless to say I'm not very happy with this response. I don't think it is very good customer service, and certainly isn't a very helpful approach.

    Is there any adjustment that I can make myself, or any other advice that people can give? I don't really want to name the supplier at this stage (though I am tempted!) as I would rather solve this problem amicably.

    Cheers

    Tim

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    stupid question first - are you certain that there's nothing preventing the knob/tap from screwing all the way in?

    in terms of a diy fix, do you actually use the hot water? if you are technically minded you could either remove and re-build the valve or simply plug the pipe. the latter is probably not ideal (nor as straight forward as it sounds - a simple fix like a bolt in the boiler outlet may give rise to some other interesting problems).

    the former is not so complicated, but i'm not entirely sure how user serviceable the valves are. my BFC steam valve is intermittently sealing shut which tells me it needs a rebuild with some food grade lubricant but i haven't gotten around to it yet so i'm not really of any help. if you need a new valve you may need to talk to a supplier directly as i've not seen diadema/bfc specific items for sale online.

    usual disclaimers apply, there's 240vac and hot water under pressure in that box so be careful

  3. #3
    Site Sponsor coffee_machinist's Avatar
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    Do you have the lever group or semi-auto (push-button)? If it's a mechanical valve (the semi-auto has a solenoid controlling the hot water) it's just the cup seal that has perished, perfectly natural for this to happen in that timeframe. Not a big deal to service the valve, the expense seems about right but 4-6 weeks is nuts!

    I would leave it to a tech though, the BFC valves are very good quality but hard to disassemble without some big shifters / vice, then you need to have the right replacement seal. Sometimes you can flip them over, but better to have it replaced.

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    Thanks.. yes, I do use the hot water, it provides instant hot water for long blacks or cups of tea

    The valve is an electrical solenoid operated by a switch - so not a manually operated valve. As far as I can tell there is no adjustment, but perhaps someone can point me to one.

    I can of course plug the end of the water nozzle, which gives a temporary fix, but it isn't the long term solution. Anyway, having bought a top class machine I rather thought that a) the valves would last longer than a year and b) that the supplier would be a bit more helpful!

    Cheers

    Tim

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    Thanks Rick,

    The machine has 3 switches on the front, not push buttons. One of the switches operates a solenoid valve for dispensing hot water. So the fault is in this valve and as you say it is likely to be some type of internal washer or seal. I can source a replacement valve but then of course I am making unauthorised repairs and so voiding warranty to something I really feel - given the age and claimed quality of the machine - is something the supplier ought to be fixing.

    Cheers

    Tim

  6. #6
    Site Sponsor coffee_machinist's Avatar
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    OK, unusual for a solenoid plunger to leak in that timeframe. Have you tried just giving it a few rapid on/off/on/off flicks, sometimes that can dislodge a little bit of whatever that's preventing the plunger from making a good seal. If that doesn't work, it will require a new plunger.

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    where are you ?
    How DIY competant are you ?
    Have you done a descale recently ?
    It may be quicker & cheaper to order and fit a complete new valve assy if you dont want to strip & inspect it..

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    Hi blend52,

    I live in country Victoria, about 200km from Melbourne. I have done regular flushes of the group head with "Clean Machine" using the recommended procedure. As far as I can tell, this process only cleans the group head and does not affect the hot water valve. The last time was a few weeks ago, well before this problem surfaced.

    I'm quite DIY competent and it would be no problem to fit another valve if I have to. If this was an out-of-warranty situation that is what I would do. The trouble is that I am faced with a machine that appears to still be in warranty, but a totally unhelpful supplier who advised me that if I even take a cover off, I will void the warranty.

    As well as this thread, I have also emailed the supplier with my concerns, but have had no reply. This machine cost well over $2000 only a year ago. The valves really should not be failing, but of course things can go wrong - that is what warranties are for. My real concern is not that something has gone wrong, but that this supplier is doing nothing to help.

    I suppose if I don't hear from them soon then the best I can do is what you suggest, and then reveal the name of this supplier so that others on this forum can have fair warning about their approach to customer service.

    Thanks again

    Tim

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    I was actually thinking that a full "descale" proceedure of the boiler , pipework , and valves, may help cure the leak..if its a piece of scale stuck in the valve .
    It sound like you need to have a "serious" discussion with the supplier, at least to be sure the $55 quote fee is refundable if it is a warranty repair.
    This sort of thing really irritates me, and why i no fan of warranties. Personally i would rather pay less and rely on my own resources to maintain equipment.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Tim,

    Might be worth PM'ing the supplier via this site. The ones I've dealt with have responded pretty promptly when I've made enquiries via that route (I'm sure the extent to which they check their PMs varies though...but can't hurt), including one involving a minor repair on an e61 machine under warranty.

    Cheers
    BOSW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rick_bond View Post
    the expense seems about right but 4-6 weeks is nuts!
    One thing to consider is whether the company the machine was bought from only deals with 'domestic' machines, or sells/services commercial equipment as well. Commercial work always takes priority, since a broken-down domestic machine is an inconvenience, but a broken-down commercial machine is costing the owner $ every minute it is broken down. Domestic repairs as a result can often be the lowest priority work through necessity rather than by choice.

  12. #12
    Site Sponsor coffee_machinist's Avatar
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    True, as a tech I know commercial repairs often take priority, but I'd be embarrassed if I told a customer it would take 4-6 weeks to quote on a machine, even if it had just been pulled out of storage let alone in daily use. Also - if it's a leak from the h/w solenoid they should be able to quote over the phone, and repair should take an hour, tops, WITH a service for good measure.

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    Thanks to all,

    I have phoned and emailed this company. The result of the phone call I reported in my first post, and I have not had a reply to my email.

    The company appears to be well represented on this forum, and is one of the sponsors. They have been in business for decades, and they do sell both commercial and domestic products. I assume this level of customer service is not the way they have made and retained their reputation. So I'm a bit puzzled.

    The bottom line though is that I'm between a rock and a hard place. A new valve will cost around $90, whereas the cost of shipping the machine for a warranty repair will be a minimum of $50 each way. Either way it will cost me.

    For the present I can live with it simply by plugging the hot water outlet and boiling a jug. I don't think that is a very good solution for a machine that cost over 2 grand a year ago. The next time I want to spend several thousand dollars I will know where not to shop.

    Thanks again to all for your responses. I really appreciate all the help, and to be honest I still enjoy the coffee I am getting from this machine.

    Cheers

    Tim

  14. #14
    Senior Member Bernsbrew's Avatar
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    That's shabby treatment, if warranty applies. If not then you may be pushing it, since the seller is no longer under that obligation. As for the quote charge, that would breach consumer laws while under warranty. That's a no brainer, cos seller gotta fix what's broke, no buts, no maybes, it's black and white. You really need to get the warranty question sorted before deciding on a course of action. Your machine is either in warranty or not in warranty, that's black and white too. Check your invoice date, and paperwork. As for the six-week repair wait, well that would be less black and white, but as a warranty job, the seller is entitled to "reasonable" time to fulfill the obligation. What is reasonable will depend on the nature of the repairs - do parts have to be ordered from overseas, for example. By the same token the seller must take all reasonable steps to ensure repairs are timely. Given that the machine may no longer be covered by warranty, I would be looking for a local technician. Ask cafes, pubs and restaurants in your area who services their machines. When the tech is next in your area, schedule a service. Get hold of any technical diagrams and parts lists as well.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Hi Bern,
    My understanding of these quote charges at most places, are that if the machine is returned during warranty and either there's nothing wrong with the machine, or non-warrantable events (e.g. pouring milk into the water tank) have caused problem, the quote charge applies (but is deducted from the cost of repairs if carried out usually). If the machine is returned and repaired under warranty neither the quote or repair cost are charged (but freight etc is where applicable). So I don't see the quote charge per se as breaching consumer laws. My minor repair had the quote charged credited and then debited off the invoice once the problem was diagnosed (without any intervention by me).
    Cheers
    BOSW

  16. #16
    Senior Member Bernsbrew's Avatar
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    I think the OP is querying a quote charge when the issue is covered under a current warranty. The OP acknowledges that freight is not covered and makes no mention of misuse or unreasonable treatment of the machine, quite the contrary. Given such circumstances (normal domestic use, no misuse), then the seller must honour the warranty and cover the cost of repair - no funny fees, no out-of-pocket expenses. That is the law. None of this applies if the warranty has expired. The OP bares all costs.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Without prejudice.

    There are many things that can go wrong with a coffee machine. Misuse be it accidental or not, is not covered under warranty. Consumer law also protects the company responsible for the warranty. We have not been given the full picture here, yet many assumptions are being made. In the first post, it clearly states it may not be under warranty. A machine comes with "x" amount of warranty. If this period has expired, then it is out of warranty. From the information given, it seems this is a grey area that has not been confirmed.

    All this talk about what should and should not be done is a load of baloney. You spend over $2k on a product, you keep the proof of purchase. If the warranty period has expired, then live with it. The seller is simply covering their backside in case the machine was "misused". Scale, seals and other wear and tear is generally not covered by warranty. People need to fully understand what a warranty really covers. All this BS about replacement warranties on other threads is so misleading and is clearly clouding people's judgements. Wait till the manufacturer warranty wears out on the BES900 and people start trying to make claims under their "replacement" warranty. The fun will start then.

    Threatening to name and shame a company on a public forum without them having a chance to sort out your problem, in accordance to the law, is poor form. What if it turns out that the supplier is in the right and you are in the wrong? You are hiding behind a forum name, they are not. Your comments can be construed as slander, and you can be taken to court and sued for making misleading comments that could hurt their business.

    If you are not happy with your supplier, seek advice from another repairer. There is more than one company that provides warranty service for these machines. Seek legal advice from a government body that deals with consumer law, not an internet forum. If the supplier is in the wrong, then you are protected. If you are in the wrong, is the supplier protected?

    Be fair.

    Facts first.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Bosco,
    Agree 100% with the points re warranty. I think the issue that doesn't make quite so much sense here is the apparent 4-6 week delay in getting the techo's to look at the machine. That does seem unusual, but maybe there are some unusual circumstances at play. I do think that the OP has a reasonable expectation that the supplier at least answer/acknowledge an email within a few days, even if it's to just to say "the situation is as we told you on the phone".
    Cheers
    BOSW

  19. #19
    Senior Member Bernsbrew's Avatar
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    A company can't sue for defamation. The OP states he is reluctant to name the business and acknowledges some doubt about warranty. His main gripe is the 4-6 weeks without a machine, it appears. Most people would regard that as unreasonable. Even so he may still have a legitimate claim under statutory warranty. I disagree with your wear-n-tear remarks. A product must be fit for the purposes for which it is intended, and that covers seals and any other parts that contribute to that purpose. That's the law. Bits of paper with clauses and exclusions mean diddly squat.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernsbrew View Post
    A company can't sue for defamation. .
    To clarify, a company with more than 10 full-time employees cannot sue for defamation in Australia. Companies with <=10 full-time employees, and which are not related to other companies can sue for defamation. Larger companies retain the ability to launch actions in tort (though I'm unaware of any such cases being initiated). All hypothetical...nobody has been defamed.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernsbrew View Post
    I disagree with your wear-n-tear remarks. A product must be fit for the purposes for which it is intended, and that covers seals and any other parts that contribute to that purpose. That's the law. Bits of paper with clauses and exclusions mean diddly squat.
    Interesting. By your reasoning a life time guarantee applies to all parts????????
    So, parts are not expected to wear out?
    Fit for purpose??? Please define. No manufacturer is expected to provide a life expectancy on their product.
    Does that mean my tyres on my car have a lifetime guarantee?

    Where does the notion of reasonable wear and tear come into play?


    All this is nonsense. Either in or out of warranty. If you are not happy with the wait time quoted, then go elsewhere, no one is forcing anyone. You have had a bad experience, naturally if unhappy with the outcome you will tell many until you get tired of it. No doubt you will think twice before giving that same supplier more business.

    Maybe the question should have been:
    I am not happy with my supplier, I have "x" machine. I was quoted a long turn around time which does not suit me. Can you recommend an alternative repairer or service agent?

    As to the long wait time, maybe that repair centre is busy with work and is honest and upfront. It would be worse if they said two weeks and the customer had to wait 6 weeks. I applaud their upfront honesty. Sometimes it happens. Seek an alternative, ask the repair centre if they know another company that they can recommend.

    This is all common sense.
    Cheers.

  22. #22
    Senior Member DavidW1960's Avatar
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    Where does the notion of customer service come into play here? We do business here with site sponsors in spite of often higher prices than can be obtained elsewhere. Does the sponsor have no obligation here? Do you consider a 4-6 week lag acceptable?

  23. #23
    Not a Shoe Jimmytheboot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    Interesting. By your reasoning a life time guarantee applies to all parts????????
    So, parts are not expected to wear out?
    Fit for purpose??? Please define. No manufacturer is expected to provide a life expectancy on their product.
    Does that mean my tyres on my car have a lifetime guarantee?
    Parker who make the solenoid valves for alot of machines give a 5 year warranty on their valves, if thats whats failed in the OP's case it seems like something that should be covered by the machine manufacturer for a similar period of time, NO?????? :P

  24. #24
    Not a Shoe Jimmytheboot's Avatar
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    Probably just scale stuck in the valve though, if you're going to using the hot water function alot you should descale regularly, easier to use the kettle IMO

  25. #25
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidW1960 View Post
    Where does the notion of customer service come into play here? We do business here with site sponsors in spite of often higher prices than can be obtained elsewhere. Does the sponsor have no obligation here? Do you consider a 4-6 week lag acceptable?
    How about the whole story? Everyone is keen to jump in defence of the buyer, with limited information provided on their part. I am not that naive, and have been in sales for over 2 decades. I know there is more to the story that is not being disclosed, there always is.
    I do business with whomever I choose and I expect the same level of service regardless. Run a service-centre properly and profitably, and then revisit your comments. I think you will have a reality awakening quick smart. Because the supplier is a site sponsor, does not obligate them to drop everything simply because a member of CS deems it fair play. All customers are equal, but you will soon learn that some are more equal than others. It is called business, and business decisions are made daily, not to everyone's liking.
    Get the full facts from both parties before you hang some one out to dry.

    If you are not happy with the service that is being provided, you can go elsewhere. Are you under some sort of illusion that you must buy all coffee gear from site sponsors in order to be a member of this site?

  26. #26
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    A few things have been said incorrectly in this thread.

    1) Every consumer has a statutory warranty which can be enforced by the ACCC and Fair Trading departments. I'd be contacting these people first.
    2) As the machine is only 1 week out of warranty (I assume) the merchant should take liability for the products they're selling and not make the consumer pay. If their machines are breaking down 1 week out of warranty then obviously they need to start to think if the products they're selling are fit for use. This will also be enforced by the ACCC or Fair Trading.
    Also if the consumer pulls his cards right, They'll be made to feel like the problem never occured which is whats ment to happen. Fair trading will enforce the company sends them a replied paid slip to attach to the box to send it to them.
    The company will then be forced to pay for the repairs and take any losses up with the supplier / manufacturer along with any shipping charges which might have occured.

    OR they can simply refund the customer the price of the machine if they find this cheaper.

    tshirley is from Victoria, we have some pretty powerful consumer rights down here compared to QLD and other states.

    http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/
    http://www.accc.gov.au/

    If you call these companies you'll win and you won't pay a cent for any shipping any quotes or anything. Remember: The customer is always in the right.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Neofelis, my friend. Please read the Bosco's first post, regarding what is covered by warranty. The OP is not even claiming that the warranty has been denied...he just said that he'd been told that the repair 'may not' be covered by warranty (which makes sense b/c the vendor hasn't seen the machine yet). The statutory warranty does not cover everything that can potentially go wrong with your machine.

    If every customer adopts an adversarial approach to these issues (and the OP has not....he's asked some valid questions), there's only one outcome.....we just pay more for goods in the first place. I'd rather avoid that.
    Dennis likes this.

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    Hi all,

    Once again thanks for all your good and helpful advice.

    May I just restate, that all I want is to get the hot water valve on my Diadema Junior Plus fixed. If it is out of warranty, I can buy the part and replace it myself. It is plumbing, not rocket science. If it is in warranty, then I would like the supplier to fulfill their obligations and fix it for me.

    Am I being unreasonable to expect that the supplier should tell me on the phone whether the machine is in or out of warranty? I can quote the serial number and invoice number. I have no objection to paying for the repair if the failure is my fault, and I'm not asking him to make a decision on this fault without seeing the machine. I just want to know if the machine has a one or two year warranty.

    At this stage I have no indication that the supplier is refusing to repair a machine that is in warranty. My problem is that he won't tell me if it is in warranty or not, unless I spend something over $100 first. So I cannot make a decision as to what action I need to take.

    Cheers

    Tim

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    Having returned this afternoon from a trip that thankfully, involved no computers or internet connections, I was surprised to see all of these goings on here.

    And I think they’ve gone far enough.......

    To Bosco, Barry and others that have tried to keep the discussion sane. You are beacons of light in an apparent sea of internet darkness and despair.

    To Tim. I would like to thank you for keeping it real in the face of the stir up and trumped up indignation from others who seem to like to comment on rights and warrantable obligations and other irrelevancies (in the context of this topic) from the safety of their keyboards. Apparently their keyboards are somehow in the know about information that qualifies them to comment. That would be magic, because even I don’t know what the situation is, until I talk to my people.

    In the meantime as far as I can see, the "problem" should be very simple and will be sorted for you tomorrow early am. Please accept my apologies for not having someone in our system come back to you on Monday as should have been done.

    I think some of you others need to take a chill pill.

    Not hiding behind an anonymous meaningless internet name,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.
    Dennis and TC like this.

  30. #30
    Not a Shoe Jimmytheboot's Avatar
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    I love happy endings <3

  31. #31
    Senior Member Bernsbrew's Avatar
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    You weren't unreasonable, you just asked for some guidance. Instead you got told how to suck eggs. Best of luck with it, Tim.

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    Hi all,

    I'd just like to wrap this up. Firstly, thanks to all for your contributions.

    I spoke to a technician at Cosmorex this morning and discussed the whole matter. Basically he told me the following:

    1. My machine has a 1 year warranty against manufacturing defects and equipment failure. Therefore it is out of warranty.
    2. The leakage fault I reported is most likely to be the result of scale or some other object causing the valve to not close properly, since the solenoid itself is working. Therefore regardless of the warranty status this fault would not be covered as a warranty matter.
    3. Since it is out of warranty I can make my own arrangements to fix it. This could include dismantling and cleaning the valve myself, replacing the solenoid myself, or taking it to a repairer of my choice and paying for the work to be done.

    This is basically the information I was seeking from the outset. It is likely that the person I originally spoke to misunderstood the question I was trying to ask - which was simply, that I needed to know the warranty status of the machine (not whether the warranty would cover the fault) so that I could decide the best action to take from there.

    Once again thank you all for your contributions and support.

    Cheers

    Tim




    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee View Post
    Having returned this afternoon from a trip that thankfully, involved no computers or internet connections, I was surprised to see all of these goings on here.

    And I think they’ve gone far enough.......

    To Bosco, Barry and others that have tried to keep the discussion sane. You are beacons of light in an apparent sea of internet darkness and despair.

    To Tim. I would like to thank you for keeping it real in the face of the stir up and trumped up indignation from others who seem to like to comment on rights and warrantable obligations and other irrelevancies (in the context of this topic) from the safety of their keyboards. Apparently their keyboards are somehow in the know about information that qualifies them to comment. That would be magic, because even I don’t know what the situation is, until I talk to my people.

    In the meantime as far as I can see, the "problem" should be very simple and will be sorted for you tomorrow early am. Please accept my apologies for not having someone in our system come back to you on Monday as should have been done.

    I think some of you others need to take a chill pill.

    Not hiding behind an anonymous meaningless internet name,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

  33. #33
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Looks like a happy(ish) ending.


    You still have a leak though so I would suggest fixing the cause not just the symptom might be worthwhile. Assuming this was caused by scale then a full descale (as mentioned above) might be the best way forward and maybe a better water filtration suppy to help stop it in the future.

    Look forward to hearing how you go.

  34. #34
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    Well, I hate to extend this by asking another couple of questions, but here goes.

    1. The standard descaling procedure seems to only deal with the group head and not with the hot water circuit. Where can I find instructions to do a "full descale"?

    2. I have used ordinary tap water, because the water in my area is soft and good quality. There is a filter in the water reservoir but there are no instructions about renewing or replacing this filter. I assume the filter contents should be replaced or recharged in some way, are there any suggestions? The filter contains some white and blue granules, in fact it looks a bit like washing powder

    Thanks

    Tim

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    That'll be an anti-calc filter, ISTR they should be replaced about every 6-months, you can get suitable replacements from most parts suppliers (probably also Bombora stockists).

    Chris's procedure for descaling HX's in (stickied in the pointy end forum) covers descaling the group and wands.

  36. #36
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    Where can I find instructions to do a "full descale"?
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-eq...-properly.html

  37. #37
    Senior Member DavidW1960's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrewster View Post
    That'll be an anti-calc filter, ISTR they should be replaced about every 6-months, you can get suitable replacements from most parts suppliers (probably also Bombora stockists).
    Try here: Bombora Coffee & Water Supplies :: WATER FILTRATION :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: Coffee Machine Replacement Water Filter, In-Tank, Resin

  38. #38
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshirley View Post
    W

    ...There is a filter in the water reservoir but there are no instructions about renewing or replacing this filter. I assume the filter contents should be replaced or recharged in some way, are there any suggestions? The filter contains some white and blue granules, in fact it looks a bit like washing powder
    might be best to check with Cosmorex to be sure of the type of filter supplied. Mine is similar, but the granules are all the same colour (maybe different type). I refresh it every month or so by immersing it in salty water for a while, then thoroughly rinsing with clean water (I bought a spare one so that I can refresh one of them and still use my machine). I received photocopied instructions to this effect when I purchased the machine.
    Last edited by Barry O'Speedwagon; 23rd August 2012 at 01:52 PM. Reason: can't spell

  39. #39
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    Join Date
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    Wrt the in tank / in line rechargeable water filter / softener, from memory there is a basic instruction on the last page of the english language section of the manufacturer owner booklet. I would however replace it annually, as they can get quite crudded up and scummy from the simple particle filtration action of the filter.

    If you dont have the extra leaflet that Barry is referring to, I will be happy to scan and email one to you.



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