Results 1 to 36 of 36
Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By BLrdFX
  • 1 Post By Wynton87

Thread: What are my lever options..

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    166

    What are my lever options..

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Seriously thinking of buying a bez Strega but wanted to know if there are any other option around this quality level? If someone can convince me a elektra mcl is just as good or better then that would be another option I guess

  2. #2
    Senior Member chopinhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    101
    I am a lever guy and have never used a Strega, but have used the Pavoni's, MCal's and Cremina. Personally, if could own another lever (on top of those I currently have) I'd go with the Strega. I can't imagine that it wouldn't be way better than any of the domestic spring levers such as the MCal and Ponte Vecchio Lusso and Export. It is a bit of a game changing machine, a domestic (or better prosumer) machine with a commercial lever group and commercial lever springs. This just must transfer into superior shot making capabilities and superior shots.
    Of the others, the Cremina is the king of domestic, small-sized lever machines for any number of reasons that have been well-documented on this and other forums. But it is extremely expensive new, and hard to find second hand. They cost around $1000 more than a new Strega, a price differential many out there are not prepared to pay, especially since the Strega is more versatile machine in terms of what it can do (eg churn out far more consecutive, high quality shots).

  3. #3
    Senior Member SniffCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    705
    The Strega is probably the best option at the moment. Londinium 1 is about be released in the UK, which uses a commercial sized lever group on a domestic size boiler, like the Strega. The benefit I think of the Strega, Bosco and Londinium (and the Quickmill Achille which I'm not sure is available in Australia) is that you can pull a double shot from a single pull on the lever, whereas with the smaller machines with smaller size groups (Ponte Vecchio Lusso, Cremina, Micro Casa a Leva) is that to get 60mls you have to take a second pull on the lever, which means the flow of water through the puck is interrupted and the pressure profile is not a smooth arc.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    QLD
    Posts
    442

    What are my lever options..

    First of all, decide on how much space you are willing to dedicate to your lever machine. This is the most important aspect. Once that is worked out, you have to decide whether or not you will plumb it in. This will narrow down your choices.
    If you want a proper lever, and all the benefits (flavour wise, ease of use, etc) that go with it, then look for one with a commercial lever group.
    As to choices:

    Londinium 1.
    Same lever group as the Bosco, and available with a water tank. Can be plumbed in. Can be customised and is available direct from the manufacturer. 58mm group head so you can use triple baskets. Very well priced.

    Bosco.
    Hand made in Italy, available from CRA, a site sponsor. Full service and backup in Australia by a reputable company. Needs to be plumbed in. Large footprint. No pump and magnificently quiet. Delightfully simple build, will last for ever, and can produce shot after consistent shot. Can be customised, check out their website. Full size commercial machine. Personal bias, as I own one.

    Strega.
    58mm group head, can be plumbed in, or comes with a water tank. Lot of reviews both here and on HB. I will leave it to owners to comment.

    Quickmill Achilles.
    Sold by Coffee Italia in the UK, you may be able to buy locally from their Australian branch, or direct. 58mm group. Water tank and rotary pump. Uses the same lever group as the Bosco.

    Izzo.
    Commercial machine. Uses smaller group head than a 58mm. Triple baskets not available (that I know of). Has to be plumbed in. There is a thread here on CS about this machine. Not sure about availability from Australian importers.

    There are others, some of the Italian manufacturers still have a lever group in their catalogues. Lever machines are easy to maintain, so it is one product that can be self imported (with all the relevant risks).

    Restored Beauties.
    There are a number of old lever machines that have been restored, and come up for sale from time to time. They have to be plumbed in. As to price, they cost whatever you are willing to pay.

    Lever machines are simple, few parts to go wrong, and are easily serviced. They are quiet and very easy to use. They are forgiving, and easy to master. As long as you understand the fundamentals and mechanics of how to produce a good espresso, you will not go wrong. I prefer the ones with a 58mm group head, as I can use a triple basket to produce thick bodied espressos, which I prefer.

    Before you buy, go and have play with a lever. Take your favourite coffee with you and compare the result from it, to what you are used to getting at home (or cafe).

  5. #5
    Senior Member insomnispresso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    136
    Izzo uses the La San Marco group and hence there are bottomless PF & triple baskets etc available. I got my bottomless from CoffeeParts

    TalkCoffee imports the full stainless ones.

    I think the Londinium looks interesting because of the price they where planning to pitch it at but it's yet to pass initial field trials

  6. #6
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312
    In so far as the market is concerned at this point the machine doesnt even exist, yet people are talking about it, talking it up and even recommending it as a possible contender.....Right now I'd call that an extremely effective (and very well calculated) marketing campaign, but not a coffee machine.

    For the rest of it there are any number of commercial lever machines available through whatever channels, if a commercial is for whatever reason, wanted by the OP. These forums build manufacturer names into icons, where anyone that is lucky enough to have their name bandied around builds market recognition and "cred" just for getting their name out there. That doesnt mean recognized manufacturer names in these effectively "retail" end forums are any "better" than manufacturers that are conversely only active in the commercial business side of the market and have never been heard of tin these forums......

    Lever machines are for whatever reason, still favoured in the southern part of Italy and are very very common from around the Naples area and down to the bottom of the boot and into Sicily. Therefore there are a number of manufacturers that make them in addition to the more modern designs. They may not be all that commonly available here, where the market has developed along the lines of northern italian espresso style and equipment nevertheless, they are not as "special" as people seem to think ie they are simply another type of equipment that is available, for those that might want them, and god forbid, they are just another type of coffee machine.

    A lot of hoo haa surrounds these subjects, especially as people spend an endless amount of time discussing the nth degree of academic espresso quality, when for the most part the market is drinking milk coffees where this nth degree of academia is frittered away in the milk, and while three quarters of the public either dont have a grinder or have one that destroys the grinds before they are turned into coffee or gets anywhere near a so called "pre infusion" or "pressure" profile". Most people dont understand how to properly use coffee equipment and cant adjust a grinder, but they are all fired up about things like "pressure profiling" when looking to purchase.......

    My advice would be to decide on a budget, and then purchase a machine of the type you would like to have, at slightly above your budgeted figure. Buy the biggest capacity machine you can get for the money because that is where you should get a better quality coffee OR, one that is easier to produce due to machine ergonomics.

    The rest I am afraid is smoke and mirrors and is in fact....up to the equipment operator. You could give a ferrari to a 17 year old, but that doesnt mean you will get a great drive.

    Hope that helps.

    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.
    Last edited by Fresh_Coffee; 30th September 2012 at 11:26 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993
    Quite a lot of levers available these days as per the above.

    ** Really important you consider the bench real estate of the commercial sized levers if your considering going down that path, they are both wide and deep!

    I wouldn't touch Cafe Italia with a barge pole if you want ANY backup service later.

    Microcimbali and Elektra MC have really lost there place in terms of $ for quality. Ignoring some of the fan boy stuff elsewhere about the Cremina bottom line is it is overpriced.

    Currently the best by a chunk for a home lever is the Strega and the Londinium will follow. There was a rumour circulating the industry a while back about an Izzo equivalent in a domestically friendly shell but as yet no signs of it.

    Currently have the Fioranzato 1grp Lever on the bench and the Pavoni packed in the camping kit. 3 grp Izzo in mothballs and the 2 grp Izzo LPG powered one having it's home designed. Beware they can be addictive

  8. #8
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312
    Thanks for annunciating directly some of my own thoughts BF. Some of these things are offensively overpriced when compared to what they actually do. And the internet "cred" & "iconism" that has been built up around some of them allows that kind of cynical market pricing to exist. And that's the information overload highway shooting itself in the foot.

  9. #9
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    There was a rumour circulating the industry a while back about an Izzo equivalent.
    There is a new lever due in the next 12 months, but not from Gruppo Izzo which has no plans for anything smaller at present.

    Confirming that we continue to import the Izzo Pompeii.

    Chris

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    QLD
    Posts
    442
    Ok, Let's tidy this up a bit.
    OP was after his options.

    Currently available:

    Small Levers.
    Cremina, and all the others.

    "Domestic size" Levers.
    With a full commercial sized lever group. (OP was considering a Strega)
    -Strega (Readily available-lots of reviews)
    -Quickmill Achilles
    -Londinium (prototype stage)
    -Mystery lever from TC (not sure if it fits in this category, or the one below due to lack of info). 12 months away. Destined to be a "category killer".

    Commercial Levers.
    -Multitude of manufacturers. If this is what the OP is looking for, then I am sure we can come up with a detailed list of brand names and their offerings.

    To make a decision, budget, plumbing and bench real estate must be revealed.

    Which machine makes the better espresso? Who knows, and to be honest, who cares. It all boils down to personal preferences in the end, and what is readily available. They are all coffee machines and capable of producing the goods; and as per my original statement:
    "As long as you understand the fundamentals and mechanics of how to produce a good espresso, you will not go wrong."

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,275
    One more domestic sized lever ( commercial group, 58mm PF, reputable manufacturer, sensible price, ..etc etc)
    ..that repeatedly gets overlooked is the Fracino "Retro"..
    Ironically , made by the same company that assembles the L1 !



    on a side note...
    ..am i correct in thinking that the Strega can ( if necessary) be use as a conventional "pump" machine,.... by simply not using the lever ???

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    777
    I have to agree with a lot of what has already been written. One thing to note about commercial levers is that they are big machines. They take up a lot of bench space and you need a few people to move them around unless you are particularly strong... Also just pulling the lever itself is not something everyone would feel comfortable with.... having said that they produce a superlative shot... larger and more full bodied than what a smaller grouped domestic can achieve. Again: having said that- the domestic levers can also produce a superlative shot- smaller but different than a commercial lever one... Both have their advantages and disadvantages and I would not say one is definitively better than the other... they are just different.

    And finally: there is a new lever on the Australian market- the Quick Mill Achille 0996. I have actually imported a number of these machines to Australia and am currently testing one out. So far I am loving the shots- it is easy to use and a lot of fun. Runs superbly, can be left on all day- just walk up and pull a shot. The machine comes with a tank and rotary pump- but is also fitted with a plumbed line- so can be set up either way straight out of the box. These machines are really built to the standard of a commercial machine and would be well suited to commercial use I think...

    If anyone is interested in one of these machines please send us an email - or a PM through CS.

    More information and photos to come with a micro-review.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993
    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    on a side note...
    ..am i correct in thinking that the Strega can ( if necessary) be use as a conventional "pump" machine,.... by simply not using the lever ???
    NO. The pump is used for the preinfusion stage to put the water through the HX and not for the shot at all. If you like it sort of replaces a reduced mains pressure feed would do for some of the commercial HX levers (Rancilio Z9 I have). It also refills the boiler as I understand the plumbing.

    Levers with dipper type heads simply use the boiler pressure to feed the piston before the shot. And in these cases the pump if fitted just fills the boiler against the pressure. Or if plumbed then reduced mains works too.

  14. #14
    Not a Shoe Jimmytheboot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    247
    Quote Originally Posted by beanflying View Post
    NO. The pump is used for the preinfusion stage to put the water through the HX and not for the shot at all. If you like it sort of replaces a reduced mains pressure feed would do for some of the commercial HX levers (Rancilio Z9 I have). It also refills the boiler as I understand the plumbing.
    From what Ive read on other forums and seen in videos the pump/opv will supply 9 bar to the puck if you hold the lever down long enough, so it could be used for the shot.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    777
    here are two picture of the new Achille 0996 in action at home in Italy

    - on this machine the pump only tops up the 4.5 liter boiler (from a 3 liter tank)- via a rotary pump. The machine comes with a switch on the base to change over to plumbed operation.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
    .
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,312
    I am happy to agree there are going to be some differences in the character of the resulting coffee between domestic and commercial sized machines, however if we eliminate machines from the mix that I would class as straight out "toys", any discernible difference in the character of the coffees produced by domestic sized VS machines using commercial sized groups, will in the main be attributable to the different sized coffee filters used.

    That is, the filter in a domestic size machine is smaller (holds less grinds) than a commercial sized (58mm) filter ergo you cant help getting a difference in the coffees of you brew to the same sized volume in the cup.

    I measured the weight capacity of grinds in the double filter a good domestic lever machine I have in the showroom, as opposed to the weight capacity of a commercial 58 mm double filter. The domestic held around 15 grams, as opposed to somewhere around 19 grams in the commercial.....say the domestic holds around 3/4 of the full capacity of the commercial.

    If you were to brew "standard" 30 ml espressos with your commercial machine using 19 grams of grinds, would that not be much the same as brewing 22 ml ristrettos using the domestic machine with 15 gram of grinds?

    And unless you have one of each of the machines running side by side, how could you compare the character of the resulting brews to say whether one is "better" (for whatever reason) than the other, and would it in the end for domestic clients be of any real significance (as most of the coffees run out are destined for milk coffee)?

    A lot of comparisons and reports in these forums are fought on equipment specification, therefore a machine with a commercial type group is considered to be "better" than one with a domestic size group. But is it not the result from the total package that counts?

    A question then for those that have both types of machine on the bench: If you take into consideration the differing quantity of grinds in each coffee filter, and you therefore adjust the volume of liquid so it is comparative........is the difference between the coffees / machines significant? And if the domestic costs say less than 2 thou, but the commercial costs in excess of 3 thou, is any difference still significant?

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    777
    I agree with this. There is another factor- on a machine like the Ponte Vecchio- the cylinder is 45mm wide as opposed to 58mm on a commercial group- this means that even though the spring is considerably less powerful- the smaller diameter of the 'water column' in the piston chamber means the weaker spring can create a comparable pressure per square inch at the puck... maybe not quite as high as a commercial group but high enough to get into the awesome espresso zone...

    having used commercial and domestic levers extensively I am happy to admit that they are quite different in the cup- but I do not accept that the commercial lever is necessarily better. It is a matter of taste if you ask me. You can get superb world class espresso from a so called 'toy' lever... and as you say- there is more to a machine than just coffee- the commercial leer really is not for everyone- they are designed for heavy use environments and are heavy duty beasts...

  18. #18
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    942
    Hi all

    I have a Ponte Vechio Lusso (from Sorentina Coffee) and a La Pavoni Europiccola. The Ponte Vecchio espresso is excellent, the machine does not overheat like the Pavoni. I can keep the Ponte Vecchio on for hours if I wish. The Pavoni though produces a slightly sweeter shot I think but it's a one off; you can't churn out a few. The Ponte Vecchio will do several if the boiler is full and they will come out the same - good repeatability

    Yet I still yearn for a lever with a 58 mm portafilter - why? It gives me more coffee in my cup. With the Ponte I use a small cup and make a small macchiato for my wife as that suits what a 42 mm portfilter produces. I have a Bezera Domus Galatea and whit tat the wife gets a full sized cup flat white. Guests usually want a full cup too and the Ponte and the Pavoni are just a bit short for that.

    If its just for you and one other a Ponte Vecchio is excellent and a good starting point for a lever machine. For many guests and a full cup you would need a 58mm size lever.

    Mike

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmytheboot View Post
    From what Ive read on other forums and seen in videos the pump/opv will supply 9 bar to the puck if you hold the lever down long enough, so it could be used for the shot.
    ?? An owner may like to clear this up but the Pump to my understanding was set to deliver 3 bar Pre Infusion and not 9 bar (can't think of any idea why it would be near 9 bar).

  20. #20
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike View Post
    Yet I still yearn for a lever with a 58 mm portafilter - why?
    Hi Mike,

    I reckon if you ever get the opportunity to try the deep 55 on the Pompeii, you may change your mind.

    Agreed that PV is a terrific starting point. Gotta love a great lever!

    Chris

  21. #21
    Not a Shoe Jimmytheboot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    247
    Quote Originally Posted by beanflying View Post
    (can't think of any idea why it would be near 9 bar).
    Same pump+opv as other bezzera vibe pump machines?

    Strega brew pressure test - YouTube

  22. #22
    Site Sponsor coffee_machinist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    684
    yep, if you leave the lever down the pump will continue to pressurise and you can pull a shot as if it were a pump machine.

    Another distinction between domestic and commercial-sized levers is temperature stability due to the mass of metal in the group. People often talk about machines with commercial-sized groups being more 'forgiving', and this has alot to do with the temperature rise and fall being comparatively slower, and once the group is at it's sweet spot it will happily pull superb espresso more or less continuously, which is a quality that is very hard to replicate in a small machine. The PV Lusso has a very good reputation in that regard though. Bezzera have gone one step further with the Strega, as I think it uses the same cartridge heater setup as the BZ07 to warm the group up actively - instead of having to flush a load of water through it as is the normal process with a commercial lever.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    777
    actually the Achille machine I am testing now does not require a warming flush- the group (and boiler) heats up to temp in around 20 minutes (17 with a very small flush). The group is heated via a passive thermosyphon connection to the boiler. Machine like the Gaggia levers which use a 'dipper' group would require a warming flush I guess. I don't know but I assume the Strega is a dipper- but obviates the need for a warming flush via the electric heater installed into the group?

    I am surprised if the pump on the strega really works at 9 Bar? How do they stop the pressure in the boiler from rising? Is the group disconnected from the boiler when the lever is down and the pump on? Is it some type of HX system?

  24. #24
    Senior Member SniffCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    705
    The Strega uses an HX system to fill the lever cylinder:

    Bezzera Strega - Second Look - Review • Home-Barista.com

    Sniff

  25. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    4
    I've had a strega for a few weeks now and love it. It's hard to make bad coffee.

  26. #26
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    8
    I've had an MCal for maybe 3 months now, loving it, consistent quality pour once you have the beast sussed out..
    If I had my time again I'd consider the twin PV Lusso, only because I'm a tad lazy and doing all the grinding etc at the same time appeals, and less wait between pours.

  27. #27
    Senior Member BLrdFX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    123
    I have a Londinium L-I on order. It should arrive in a couple of weeks or so. It is the L-I tanked version w/plumb-in kit. So I should be able to add a few points to the entire process once I can get to pulling shots :-)

    I will comparing this to my GS/3 MP and to it's predecessor, a Rocket R-58. It should be interesting, stay tuned!

    Stephen
    matth3wh likes this.

  28. #28
    Senior Member BLrdFX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    123

    Londinium L-I

    I noticed that the video of the L-I in operation, in Mr. Gunson's explanation of the machine , shows a nice bottomless portafilter extraction. I hope to get such nice extractions without to much fiddling around and if the coffee gods are with me I should know in a couple of weeks

    Stephen

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    503
    Nearly all of the shots that I have seen so far look like gushers to me....a good tightening of the grind would do wonders..

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    166
    Hey all I got an '88 Cremina off eBay for $730, but it was from the US so 110v. Got a step down transformer. That leads to my next question which I think I'll just start a new thread for..

  31. #31
    Senior Member BLrdFX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    123
    That is a great deal. A transformer? Why not just change elements in the boiler? I really like the simplicity of those machines. Good luck with the Cremina!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wynton87 View Post
    Hey all I got an '88 Cremina off eBay for $730, but it was from the US so 110v. Got a step down transformer. That leads to my next question which I think I'll just start a new thread for..

  32. #32
    Senior Member BLrdFX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    123
    Quote Originally Posted by Paolo View Post
    Nearly all of the shots that I have seen so far look like gushers to me....a good tightening of the grind would do wonders..
    Did you think that the shot in the Link I provided was a gusher? I did not Post several other Links.

  33. #33
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by BLrdFX View Post
    Why not just change elements in the boiler?
    There will be other 110V rated components. I'm sure that more will be required than just a simple element change.

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by BLrdFX View Post
    Did you think that the shot in the Link I provided was a gusher? I did not Post several other Links.

    Actually, I was commenting on youtube clips by owners on another site.

    Let me just say that I am not a Londinium 1 basher....I would have bought a Londinium 1 if the Achille didn't come along.

    I had another look at the link, which I quite like:-
    The black and white shot at 1:35 looks ok....the ones at 0:43 and 1:37 look like gushers to me....2:58 and 4:48 were both overextracted.

    It mystifies me that less than perfect shots were shown on a machine that should be capable of absolute gold.

    (I have also seen Vittoria ads etc. where no crema is shown....or a really crap pour is captioned....I don't get that either).

  35. #35
    Senior Member BLrdFX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    123
    There are so many Links in his BLOG that the videos get a bit confusing.

    I believe he edited the Link that I Posted to insert the Bottomless PF extraction. All the other videos are there for whatever reason, whether it is showing, a pour, a steaming, a water wand, etc. None are really great videos and I certainly would have staged them a bit differently but that is my preference entirely. The video of water splashing all over the place is not a particularly attractive video IMHO.

    I was just curious about that video I saw showing what I thought was a pretty good naked shot so I could learn what to strive for. That was my reason for asking.

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    166
    Just wanted to update my lever pursuit, my cremina is being cleaned and converted to AUS specs, hopefully pick it up in a week or so - thanks coffee machinist! More exciting news, just recieved my new OE Pharos!!!! Been playing with it albiet with supermarket beans, but im loving the feel of grinding my own.
    coffee_machinist likes this.



Similar Threads

  1. A few options - help appreciated
    By Catsnstuff in forum Brewing Equipment - Entry level (sub $500)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11th December 2010, 02:51 PM
  2. Manual Lever options...
    By Madhatter_jc in forum Brewing Equipment - Midrange ($500-$1500)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 6th December 2010, 11:31 PM
  3. Give me some options
    By mum2three in forum Brewing Equipment - Manual Coffee Brewing Processes
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 6th June 2010, 09:09 AM
  4. bbq roaster options
    By mauricem in forum Roasters
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 28th March 2006, 12:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •