Did you read this thread ?...
First time poster. long time lurker.
I am moving up from my beloved Silvia. She has just blown a boiler after what I estimated to be at least 5000 extractions. Although I am repairing her I am now looking to upgrade.
Trying to keep budget below $3000 ( with freight to WA)
My choice has come down to;
1.ECM Technika IV Profi WT-WC with rotary pump ( water tank/ direct water connection) ~$2700
2. Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2 ~$3000
I am leaning toward the ECM Technika IV Profi as I love the styling, rotary pump and option to plumb.
No eastern states trips are planned in the near future so viewing in person is not an option. (Foolish?)
1. Reliability, I live 300 km south of Perth ( Margaret River). Freight cost to/from eastern states (~$200) for repair would make it impractical. Should I stick with a brand that has local (WA) support? That being said, if it comes to it I am quite capable of any maintenance required myself.
2. Should I upgrade my Rocky Grinder?
3. General opinions. I realise these are both fantastic machine and also there are very few people who have in depth experience of both. I have searched everywhere but there is not a lot of reviews etc on the ECM Technika IV Profi.
Any comparisons/opinions, no matter how technical and pedantic (or emotional) before I take the plunge would be appreciated.
Thanks for such great forums!
Yup, multiple times. Great information. I was looking for more specific Rocket / ECM comparisons. Also I had other questions not covered in that thread , reliability etc
Hello Mike and welcome,
This style of question is often asked and it has inherent problems in that all you are likely to obtain are opinions. Chances are that nobody here owns or has owned one of each.
Both are great machines and will make great coffee in the right hands- as will a host of others. My advice is to look at the differences between and see if there are any dealbreaker characteristics and then choose the one you prefer.
My 3c worth (second crack is worth nothing after rounding down):
I own a Giotto Premium Plus (v1) since 2009 and it hasn't missed a beat.
I have not tried the ECM but I have seen a demo. It looks to be a great machine. Excellent steam power (better than my Giotto). This might be a consideration if you are preparing several milk-based drinks at a time.
I haven't seen anyone else who has bought one complain.
I would recommend buying local (WA) as you don't have freight to contend. The GPP is a fairly widely available machine. However, I'm sure eastern state providers can advise you of local repairers if you buy either machine from them.
I don't think you will have a problem with either choice and in the end it comes down to appearance and how it will fit into your kitchen.
The Rocky should work well with either machine. Unless you can come up with a great combo deal on a much better grinder, you may as well hang on to it if it is doing the job.
Thanks for the reply. As distributor, can you give me any sense of the number of warranty claims on the E61 HX machines. (I understand you do not stock the ECM) that require "Return to base" repairs? In your opinion is there any brand with better long term reliability?
Damn, I just reread Upgraditis .............down to the final few and noticed you comments about the Diadema Junior Extra. I might have to consider it to.
Hi....Like myself, I've recently (Dec-12) upgraded from my beloved Silvia to the ECM Technicka IV Profi WT-WC (with Rotary Pump).....and I love it! The styling, build quality, performance and the quickest, best coffee (espresso's and flatties) I've ever made (and tasted). And all so easy, I've even taught my wife how to use it who hated using the Silvia (different buttons and long waiting times for steam). I also of the Rocky grider which I would not part with. Together, they are a great pair. Can't compare it with the RGE as I've never owned one of those, however the ECM was always my favourite when what seemed endless researching. You'll enjoy which ever one you chose I'm sure. The money is well worth it (if you can afford it)!
The answer to your question is pretty much zero- unless a client insists on it.
In your case, we have service facilities in Perth.
FWIW, The Rocket is more common and I'd think that there are many hundreds of them around for each ECM machine. This often leads to more easily available spares. In my experience, I have never had to wait more than a couple of days for any part we have ever needed. We also hold a good stock of spares.
Diadema- beautiful and amongst the absolute best quality of finish on the market in my opinion.
Like markpem i recently bought an ECM technika with the same setup (rotary etc) as your looking at. I cant add much more to mikes comment, its a beautiful machine that does its job very well. Mine is currently pulling water via tank, which is very easy to refill with the option of plumbing further down the line. The rotary is whisper quiet.
I match another of your criteria. I'm also in regional WA, Kalgoorlie in fact and had the same consideration as you re shipping. It was a very nervous wait for me to see if it would arrive in good condition. And it did thankfully. I wasnt happy that the carrier (TNT) had left the skid in my driveway and not informed me that it had been delivered or even updated their webpage. Kal isnt the best place to leave expensive things lying in the open all day. However, the box was in good condition, seems to have been looked after and everything was well packaged by the company i bought from.
I dont own both, however a friend owns a giotto which i played with over xmas. In terms of coffee production, negligible difference for my mind. Even the steam power seemed similar, ECM may have been a smidge faster (weren't compared side by side). For me though i still much prefer the ECMs levers instead of toggles and general looks.
I drink at least dbl flat white and an espresso each day and im only having to refill the tank once a week (including flushing etc) if thats a consideration.
I am in exactly the same position as you at the moment.
I was down at Di bartoli's this afternoon that did help - I think the take home message was - I was going to be happy with what ever I chose - at level it was all personal preference.
Renzo encouraged me to have a go with both machines as its the small things you notice that make a difference. The things I noticed that made an impression on me were the following:
The pf of the Rocket was more substantial in the hand than the ECM
Making milk was very straight forward with the ECM, with the Rocket, because its a tap, you will have to find the correct amount of steam to use each time
I like the styling of both
I liked the position of the gauges on the ECM - at the top
I poured several shots from the ECM because by this time I was heavily leaning towards it - and it was a dream.
Renzo's view, and I probably agree, was that there most of the variation in pour would be with barista technique than with the machine. Renzo offered to set me up with a training session using my grinder, thank god.
Finally, I liked the pricing of the ECM. At the same price, your getting the switch over ability and the rotary pump, but Renzo did say however the pressure valve (i think it was) in the Rocket was of commercial standard whereas the ECM was high domestic, I don't know what difference this would make to the performance at all.
So as you can see, at this stage I am sold on the ECM.
Hope some of the above helps, let you know what I choose soon.
I put a deposit on an ECM this morning Yae!
This mini review focuses on structure and fit and finish of the Technika IV (non WT-WC), but just as importantly, in my opinion, makes excellent shots and plenty of steam. Many thanks to Jetblack Espresso for their great customer service recently!
The Technika IV is quite typical for this type of higher-end home espresso machine with the customary polished stainless steel covers and “innards” made up of generic and in-house components.
The Manufacture label behind the drip tray states the address as Dislberger, Str.68 D-69151 Neckargemund/ Germany, so I'm assuming it is actually made there.
Comparing the standard of finish of the Technika IV to say the Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V2, Vibiemme Domobar Junior or Expobar machines, I thought it was ahead in most areas – at least from what I could see in the showroom (and following purchase happily!). Lifting out the respective drip trays, removing the cup warmer/covers and taking a look under the machines, can give clues as to the internal fit and finish.
Easily read gauges/manometers at the top of the front panel and not at the bottom where you can't see them easily. Both lever valves for steam and water are nicely made (as is the group/ lever) and take some guess work out of more conventional rotary valves when used in the real world. Supplied filter holders are both solid and classy in design and use. The metal ECM badges are riveted to the front and back panels and look better than stickers or plastic badges in my opinion.
I very much like the hinged s/steel lid over the water tank (it also covers the boiler pressure adjustment screw). When the machine is situated under standard height kitchen cabinets which mine is, the tank is quite easily refilled with a smallish plastic watering can in one hand and the lid held open with the other – it beats lifting out a cup tray. The four black plastic feet are minimalist in design but well engineered with rubber inserts on their bases so that the machine will not slide on your bench-top. They are also easily height adjusted if your bench is uneven.
The top cover/lid is easily removed after loosening some stainless steel hex screws – there is also a perforated s/steel plate under this and above the boiler, which also needs unscrewing. The water tank support is also thick s/steel and again high quality with rounded corners and firmly attached to the frame with a couple of hex screws. The main cover slides off from the back of the machine after loosening six s/steel hex screws.
In the ECM Technika Technical data blurb, mention is made of a “Sound absorbing body”. This is somewhat laughable, as the only sound absorbing material consists of two 8cm square pieces of lining stuck on the insides of the main cover in close proximity to either ends of the boiler - maybe this is for heat deflection, but I really don't know however. Incidentally, the machine in operation is reasonably quiet anyway and doesn't make as much noise as a Silvia for instance.
Sheet metal work is of a very high quality with minimal sharp edges and excellent fit to the powder coated steel frame, which also appears very heavy duty and well manufactured.
This is where ECM Manufacture's attention to detail becomes very apparent I believe. The layout is entirely conventional, with neat copper pipe work and cable tied wiring. The copper boiler is very nicely built and neatly clad in a thick thermal blanket (apparently the Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V2 has this also). Underneath the boiler is a securely bracketed Ulka EX5 vibration pump which sits in its incorporated rubber mount and importantly doesn't foul any other components. To the left and high up is a MA-TER XP110 Pressurestat. I was disappointed it was not a Sirai Pressurestat but is probably the next best thing.
The main control unit or “black box” is a GICAR and apparently highly regarded, which nestles low in the machine and away from the heat of the boiler.
Last edited by Tridoros; 2nd February 2013 at 06:53 PM.