Results 1 to 19 of 19
Like Tree7Likes
  • 1 Post By Dimal
  • 1 Post By LeroyC
  • 1 Post By LeroyC
  • 1 Post By MrJack
  • 1 Post By MrJack
  • 1 Post By Dimal
  • 1 Post By Dimal

Thread: New to Bezzera bz99

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    11

    New to Bezzera bz99

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi I've just got my first Hx machine and having problems with crema and grounds at the bottom of the cup.

    Had a rancilio before and didn't seem to have any problems with that machine.

    I've been using fresh beans but crema seems to dissipate quickly. Don't seem to get a nice viacuous shot?

    Also noticed the grounds at bottom of cup now as well?

    Any suggestions? Thanks!

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Using the same baskets?

    I got rid of the baskets that came with my BZ99s and got some EP precision ones.

    Watch you don't overdose the basket - the shower screen sits quite low relative to the group seal.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    280
    I used to get the same with a BZ99, but frustratingly can't remember how I fixed it. It might have been changing the grinder from a Porlex to a Preciso, it might have been thoroughly cleaning the machine (I bought second hand), it may have been new baskets (those from coffeeparts).

    Crema disappears quickly on beans which are too fresh.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    11
    Thanks. Mr jack I'm still using the bezzera baskets so maybe I should change. I've just started trying to use my old rancilio basket and that seems to be working okay but prob could brew a little slower still so I might try to go finer or up my dosage. Had it recently serviced and clean so should be working perfectly. I'm using a compak k3 which I got recently, an upgrade from the smart grinder.
    Still getting little grinds at bottom, not sure why
    also I've noticed that crema looks really nice in the doubled wall small glass I use?
    whereas I use my acm coffee cups the crema seems to dissipate quickly.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Do you wash them in the dishwasher?

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,202
    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    Do you wash them in the dishwasher?
    Trap for young players...

    Mal.
    Vinitasse likes this.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic
    Posts
    77
    Hi there. Grab a basket from chris at talk coffee. The prescision ones are a great inporvement over thr bezzera ones. Also get a tamper to match 58.5mm i think. I love the bz99 simplicity. You will be making great coffee in no time.

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    11
    Thanks all! Will have to get a new basket and give it a go.

    It is washed in a dish washer. Does that make a difference?

  9. #9
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,320
    Quote Originally Posted by yoyoma View Post
    Thanks all! Will have to get a new basket and give it a go.

    It is washed in a dish washer. Does that make a difference?
    I never wash any of my coffee equipment in detergent in the sink or dishwasher, including cups and glasses. It usually leaves behind a small amount of residue that can affect taste. I wash all my coffee gear in hot water in the sink. It's a personal choice, and ultimately its up to you, but it's what I'd recommend if you're serious about making good coffee.
    Dimal likes this.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    I wash all my coffee gear in hot water in the sink.
    Do you also chemical backflush with hot water only? Hot water alone will not remove all the coffee residue. Dishwashers on the other hand are very good at dissolving coffee oils. Any remaining dishwasher residue will rinse off easily if you are worried. (Hand dishwashing detergent however, is only marginally better than hot water at cleaning coffee but is also easy to rinse off.) I personally would rather the 'memory' of dishwasher detergent on my coffee gear than actual old coffee oils going rancid.

  11. #11
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,320
    Quote Originally Posted by Beansontoast View Post
    Do you also chemical backflush with hot water only? Hot water alone will not remove all the coffee residue. Dishwashers on the other hand are very good at dissolving coffee oils. Any remaining dishwasher residue will rinse off easily if you are worried. (Hand dishwashing detergent however, is only marginally better than hot water at cleaning coffee but is also easy to rinse off.) I personally would rather the 'memory' of dishwasher detergent on my coffee gear than actual old coffee oils going rancid.
    I'm not stupid, of course I backflush with detergent, but I use detergent specifically designed for the process. I also soak filter baskets and PFs at the same time then I 'season' my equipment afterwards with a waste shot.

    Washing cups and equipment in (very) hot water in the sink after use will remove all coffee oils if done properly. It means I have control over the situation whereas the dishwasher is an unknown and the outcome is dependent on what detergent and rinse aid is used and how good your dishwasher is. I'm a clean freak, ask my wife, so there's no way I'm using anything less than clean. And I definitely don't want detergent residue in the mix but hey, if you like the 'memory' of dishwasher detergent with <ruining> your coffee that's your prerogative I guess.
    Dimal likes this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    One of my old organic chemisty professors once explained the issue with dishwasher detergent; although his interest was in maintaining the head on his beer.

    My memory is a little hazy, but as I recall it was actually that the rinse aid changes the surface charge on the cup - this causes the surface to repel water slightly, making it easier to dry. For the same reason, plastic feels a bit greasy when washed in the dishwasher.

    Altering the surface charge wreaks havoc on foams or emulsions - and crema is both!

    It was suggested you could rinse things in fabric softener to reverse the surface charge.

    I prefer to hand wash my coffee cups (it's better for the glazing too).
    Last edited by MrJack; 9th April 2016 at 12:00 PM.
    Dimal likes this.

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    I'm not stupid, of course I backflush with detergent, but I use detergent specifically designed for the process. I also soak filter baskets and PFs at the same time then I 'season' my equipment afterwards with a waste shot.
    Of course both dishwasher detergents and espresso cleaners vary, but they typically contain very similar ingredients. Why do you season afterwards? To mask a residue left behind, or to replace some coffee residue that the normal hot water wash doesn't remove?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Washing cups and equipment in (very) hot water in the sink after use will remove all coffee oils if done properly.
    I once acquired an old portafilter that had a buildup of coffee grime. After hand washing failed to shift it, my next move was to try soak it in boiling water for half an hour. That removed a bit more, but there was still a lot that didn't come off. My conclusion was that hot water (and hand wash detergent) is not enough to remove coffee buildup.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    My memory is a little hazy, but as I recall it was actually that the rinse aid changes the surface charge on the cup - this causes the surface to repel water slightly, making it easier to dry. For the same reason, plastic feels a bit greasy when washed in the dishwasher.
    The surface tension of the water gets lowered, allowing it to drain off easier, and also to form a thin film rather than droplets so it evaporates quicker. If plastic is feeling greasy then you are using too much. You don't actually need to use any, you will just get a bit of mineral deposits left behind, the same as with a water only hand wash.


    If it makes you feel better to not use the dishwasher then by all means don't, but don't go spouting "dishwasher=bad" without some actual evidence.

  14. #14
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,320
    Quote Originally Posted by Beansontoast View Post
    Of course both dishwasher detergents and espresso cleaners vary, but they typically contain very similar ingredients. Why do you season afterwards? To mask a residue left behind, or to replace some coffee residue that the normal hot water wash doesn't remove?



    I once acquired an old portafilter that had a buildup of coffee grime. After hand washing failed to shift it, my next move was to try soak it in boiling water for half an hour. That removed a bit more, but there was still a lot that didn't come off. My conclusion was that hot water (and hand wash detergent) is not enough to remove coffee buildup.


    The surface tension of the water gets lowered, allowing it to drain off easier, and also to form a thin film rather than droplets so it evaporates quicker. If plastic is feeling greasy then you are using too much. You don't actually need to use any, you will just get a bit of mineral deposits left behind, the same as with a water only hand wash.


    If it makes you feel better to not use the dishwasher then by all means don't, but don't go spouting "dishwasher=bad" without some actual evidence.
    Do you wash all your coffee equipment in the dishwasher? Whatever that may be - portafilters, filter baskets, French press etc?

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Beansontoast View Post
    The surface tension of the water gets lowered, allowing it to drain off easier, and also to form a thin film rather than droplets so it evaporates quicker. If plastic is feeling greasy then you are using too much. You don't actually need to use any, you will just get a bit of mineral deposits left behind, the same as with a water only hand wash.


    If it makes you feel better to not use the dishwasher then by all means don't, but don't go spouting "dishwasher=bad" without some actual evidence.
    *cough*
    Rinse aids are not recommended for laboratory glassware washing. The Jet Dry type of rinse aid deposits on the glassware hydrophobically and repels the water off the glassware during drying to avoid water evaporating and forming water spots. Many rinse aids are cationic (positively) charged compounds that are attracted to surfaces that repel water. This can leave a surface with the water repelling rinse aid.
    from
    http://www.alconox.com/resources/pdf...asherguide.pdf


    I always rinse my glassware before use when washed in the dishwasher, to get rid of the residue (which smells and tastes unpleasant).
    Vinitasse likes this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,320
    Well there's some 'evidence' that would indicate that rinse aid at least probably isn't the sort of thing you want on your coffee gear. Considering most people use dishwasher tabs these days that have the rinse aid built into them leaving it out or controlling the amount you use isn't an option. Now we just need 'Beansontoast' to present evidence that refutes Mr Jack's evidence and we'll all be able to chuck everything in the dishwasher. Shouldn't be hard as it sounds like 'Beansontoast' might be a chemist.

  17. #17
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,202
    Quote Originally Posted by Beansontoast View Post
    I once acquired an old portafilter that had a buildup of coffee grime. After hand washing failed to shift it, my next move was to try soak it in boiling water for half an hour. That removed a bit more, but there was still a lot that didn't come off. My conclusion was that hot water (and hand wash detergent) is not enough to remove coffee buildup.
    This experience can not be compared with the daily cleaning of well maintained equipment/cups, etc...

    The instance you describe is the result of long oxidised coffee oils that have been transformed into a kind of varnish and not that dissimilar to oil based varnishes used to preserve wooden articles. Naturally, you can not remove it with just hot water with or without some kind of detergent...

    Mal.
    Vinitasse likes this.

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Do you wash all your coffee equipment in the dishwasher? Whatever that may be - portafilters, filter baskets, French press etc?
    All the metal bits. But these days we usually handwash so our dishwasher only gets run about once a month. I don't notice any change in extraction following a machine wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    Fair enough, although I would still argue that when using the correct amount of rinse aid, and placing things so they drain properly, it is not an issue. Is anyone using their recommended alternative of multiple deionised water rinses?
    Anyway, that article doesn't recommend against machine washing, just against rinse aid which as I have already stated is optional.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    I always rinse my glassware before use when washed in the dishwasher, to get rid of the residue (which smells and tastes unpleasant).
    Once again, fair enough. I don't have that problem but if I did I would certainly think twice before using the dishwasher.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Considering most people use dishwasher tabs these days that have the rinse aid built into them leaving it out or controlling the amount you use isn't an option.
    Plenty of tablets or powder available that don't contain rinse aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Shouldn't be hard as it sounds like 'Beansontoast' might be a chemist.
    Not sure where you get that idea from? This is high-school level stuff. I would welcome proper testing from someone who knows what they are doing.
    I chimed in when I saw what looked to be several people repeating a mantra without any evidence or even reasoning. So far MrJack is the only one to offer any evidence or reasoning. I am happy to be shown wrong if it based on actual evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    This experience can not be compared with the daily cleaning of well maintained equipment/cups, etc...

    The instance you describe is the result of long oxidised coffee oils that have been transformed into a kind of varnish and not that dissimilar to oil based varnishes used to preserve wooden articles. Naturally, you can not remove it with just hot water with or without some kind of detergent...

    Mal.
    Maybe, but my experience washing oily things in just water is that it leaves a film of oil behind. A hydrophobic film in fact. Now where did I just hear that a hydrophobic film on coffee gear was bad?

  19. #19
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,202
    Well, you seem to be the self appointed expert on all things to do with this topic, so will leave all the wisdom to you.
    There's probably upwards of a century of knowledge and experienced gained from the various respondents above, but what would we know...

    Mal.
    Gavisconi007 likes this.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •