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Thread: Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V3 v. R58

  1. #1
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    Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V3 v. R58

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I am moving from a single boiler to either a HX or Double Boiler. Given, the both Giotto V3 and R58 are both PID controlled is the significant difference in price really worth it from a shot quality and milk quality point of view.
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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  2. #2
    kbc
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    Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V3 v. R58

    If you're a latte drinker an HX will do the job. If you're an espresso drinker (like me) you have to go with a dual boiler.

    A DB lets you adjust the temp up and down to fine tune your shot.

    Too acidic - go up a degree
    Too mute - go down a degree
    Etc

    A PIDed HX will never give you that level of control.

    Once you have a DB you can never go back to a HX.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks. I appreciate the advice.
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  4. #4
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    We are latte likers, I mean by that I cut the extraction a bit short. I believe for the cup to be close to the desired tast the limited extraction must be very, very good indeed. We have a R58 for that purpose. But the extra ~$1000, well I did pretty good with a HX.
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  5. #5
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    I have had a chance to try a Giotto V3 and the PID is certainly excellent. I will keep my new machine for 10 years so I want to have the right machine. However, there is the law of diminishing returns to consider. So dumiya you have the R58, right?Are you happy with it? The removable control head using the D-connector is good in you opinion?
    After looking at another thread where it stated PID on a HX is limited value due to limited ability to control brew temp and also considering K_Bean_Coffee's reply above, I am really leaning to the R58. Commercial grade valving and rotary pump also seem to be an advantage.

  6. #6
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    I'd go a r58 personally. Or check out the new ECM dual boiler with PID. Comparable price to R58 and oh so sweet. You're friend dodgy x can hook you up
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  7. #7
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    can't imagine myself using the same machine for 10 years regardless how reliable it is.
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  8. #8
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    Ah, I used my last machine for 5 yrs. Time passed in the blink of an eye. Maybe 8 years is a realistic time frame.
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  9. #9
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    Re the 'D Connector'. I quite like the idea of being able to put it away when the set up is complete. Some folk like to see the display all the time and may prefer a built in display. The ECM I think has a cover that hides the built in display. I like the way the PID controls the boilers so the heating coils work alternatively It is very quiet. There is a definite learning curve for the steam wand. It works best almost vertical rather than angled as in my HX. I use the small hole nozzle and the steam pressure remains around 1 bar. We use full cream milk (Jersey Girl) and if I am not on my toes the micro foam overflows the 750ml jug. Wife likes the results "happy wife, happy life".
    The Rocket it replaces is around 8 years old, it has had work done on it over the years. It is now making second to none flat whites at work - or so they tell me.
    Good grinder is critical. At home we have a Kony-e, at work a M4D.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    If you're a latte drinker an HX will do the job. If you're an espresso drinker (like me) you have to go with a dual boiler.

    Once you have a DB you can never go back to a HX.
    Not so Paul, HX machines are just as capable of making quality espresso as a double boiler.

    To suggest that HX machines are only suited to making milk drinks is untrue and misleading.

    Chris from Talk Coffee summed it up pretty well with this post back in 2006.

    "A well made HX is also temp stable. My machine is capable of knocking out as many shots as I want without temp variation. The routine, whether hx or dual boiler is to flush until the water looks good and then go for it- doesnt matter which style of machine you use.

    What many CSers can forget is that the dual boiler machines- Minore II for example- are chock a block full of components and technology whereas the HX machines are simple- you lift the hood and its like looking under the bonnet of an old car...there is not much in there- therefore not much can go wrong.

    I have little doubt that ownership of a dual boiler machine will be more expensive in the long term because they are so full of boiler, water lines and electronics- which are not that crazy about heat....

    Both types of machine are capable of superb coffee with a modicum of training...just as they are capable of garbage. You need only ready Sparkys Giotto post pre vs post phone support....there was a world of difference in her coffee.

    No amount of technology will substitute for a poorly trained operator"
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  11. #11
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    Agreed, if you're looking to drink espresso alot and vary brew temps for differing roasts, the DB may be a good option, if this doesn't appeal to you (which it doesnt for most), the HX will be more than enough machine and a cheaper price. I have an ECM mechanika with vibe pump (no PID) and its capable of making great shots and is around $1200-1500 cheaper than the R58.
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  12. #12
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    Mmm, perhaps my R58 was an overkill. The HX is simpler to repair. I like the HX PID in Giotto V3 as I think it controls the temperature switching better than a pressurestat on the older HXs. Our ancient PID Silvia is still working with its original boiler! Our Rocket Premium which has a pressurestat has had its module replaced twice due to the failure of the heating coil switch solenoid. I believe the PID switches are electronic - well they are on the old Watlow Silvia PID.
    I have no idea of the R58 longevity or what part replacement it will will need. But as far as the Rocket/Giottos there are heaps out there and they are known to service personnel.
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  13. #13
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    I've been through quite a few espresso machines in the past few years, and I'd still be very happy with a quality HX. Dual boilers I find marginally more consistent but the ECM Technika Profi IV worked superbly. I'd love for the espresso machine manufacturers to find some way for the user to alter the characteristics of the heat exchanger such that brew temp could be changed in a stable way. I know that you can do the same thing by altering boiler pressure, but if you like low brew temps then you can seriously compromise steaming capability.
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  14. #14
    kbc
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    Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V3 v. R58

    I agree that a great operator can get great shots with a good HX. I just didn't manage it myself until I got to my first DB.

    However, what you can't to with a HX is accurately change temp to change flavour.

    This is an honest opinion with my hobby hat on, not my business hat.
    Last edited by kbc; 9th April 2016 at 09:21 PM.
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  15. #15
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    I used to own a real beaut of a HX machine that proved to be extremely stable and like Yelta above, was able to produce an endless number of superb espresso shots whether they were for milk drinks, straight or long blacks.

    The decision to head into Dual Boiler territory, is for exactly the reasons that Paul elucidated above, it gives the user a lot more flexibility (as far as Brew Water Temp. goes) to extract the best a particular coffee has to offer. It also allows me to "track" the ongoing development of a coffee as it ages, in order to get the best out of it over time.

    Mind you, this is mainly for the benefit of black coffee drinkers as a lot of the nuances detectable in a black coffee disappear once milk is added. Like everything, it's a "horses for courses" situation but I can't see myself moving away from a Dual Boiler machine any time soon...

    Mal.
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  16. #16
    kbc
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    I couldn't agree more with your words above Mal. Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    . Like everything, it's a "horses for courses" situation
    Absolutely. If you are a real tinkerer and like to play with things to get the utmost quality, a DB may be your friend, if you are not into the real top end science of brew temps etc, you're probably best to stick with a high quality HX and save some $$$ (or add it into a really nice grinder).
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  18. #18
    kbc
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbarton View Post
    Ah, I used my last machine for 5 yrs. Time passed in the blink of an eye. Maybe 8 years is a realistic time frame.
    For me it was a just slightly nutty 7 machines in 12 years. That's because coffee became my #1 hobby.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    For me it was a just slightly nutty 7 machines in 12 years. That's because coffee became my #1 hobby.
    Well I was getting quite acceptable espressos and milk coffees from a Zaffiro (single boiler and no PID). Coffee is no. 2 hobby behind bikes. The ability to "tinker" and explore the nuances of coffee really appeals. If I wasn't interested in exploring the nuances of coffee then the HX would more than suite my needs.

    I really appreciate everyone's opinion and for relating your coffee journey
    Paul
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by snedden9485 View Post
    you're probably best to stick with a high quality HX and save some $$$ (or add it into a really nice grinder).
    Or Lots of great, fresh coffee from CoffeeSnobs or Site Sponsors...

    Mal.
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  21. #21
    kbc
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    Yep - save the $1k
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