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Thread: Tell me why I shouldn't get an ECM T IV Profi

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    Tell me why I shouldn't get an ECM T IV Profi

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all, I have a green light to upgrade from my somewhat trusty EM6910 the next time something breaks (I'm not allowed to deliberately break it though!)

    I thought I was all settled on an Expobar Minore (tank version) but my eye has recently been caught by the ECM. I'm especially interested in the ECM Profi because of the rotary pump that doesn't need plumbing in (my machine sits on bench that does not have access to mains water). From what I can gather, the rotary is much quieter than the vibe pump on the Expo (both probably being quieter than the rumble-maker EM6910!)

    I know the ECM is a few hundred bucks more (and that one is a DB and the other HX) but I think I can stretch the budget that far.

    We mostly make milk-based drinks but I do love espresso (and the occasional mac). Either way, I know both will be several magnitudes of order better than the Sunbeam but is there a defining feature that sets one above the other or does it largely come down to preference?

    Cheers

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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Hi RavenMad, either will be a big upgrade and probably much quieter than your Sunbeam, so no problems there!

    Personally reading about temp surfing and cooling flushes on HX machines was enough to convince me the extra $$$ for the ECM double boiler was worthwhile... The PID should help with that though, particularly if you're happy to accept slightly compromised steam performance. I'll note that I'm just repeating what I've read here as I haven't owned an HX - @readeral might post some of his thoughts on the ECM, or you could have a read of his thread on the Profi - particularly this post: New ECM Technika IV Profi Experience.

    A mate who takes his coffee very seriously has owned an Expobar DB for many years and seems happy with it, though I guess having a multi-group Synesso at work probably curbs upgraditis somewhat...

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    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    Hi Raven,

    Just break the 6910 (your partner will never find out)..jokes aside, you said you prefer milk based drinks so a db would suit better. I'm not saying the hx isn't adequate but many on the forum will agree that the Expobar Minore has a too good to miss price tag for what it offers. Many call it a category killer.

    With two massive boilers and a steam boiler switch you can't go wrong for the price tag. Also, since you have no intention of plumbing in your machine the vibe pump will do just fine. No point in forking out just for the classy ECM badge and a rotary pump.
    The PID is also thing of beauty and you will love playing around with temperature as a variable.
    The best thing you can do is go to a showroom and play around with both machines. You'll truly know what you want when you put your hands on it.
    In saying that, my choice would be the Minore.
    Best of luck.

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    Thanks Matt- yes, readeral's excellent post about his experience with the ECM is pretty much what started to sway me away from the Expobar! Read a bit more about it and watched a few YT clips and the rotary pump sucked me in too. Funny you mention cooling flushes and temp surfing - I'm not too inclined to fiddle with temps which is why I thought the PID on the Expo would be a bit wasted on me. I think I'm more of a set and forget kind of guy Also, don't double boilers need cooling flushes too or is that exactly what the PID avoids (by keeping the brew temp relatively constant)?

    Gonzo, you make all the points that led me to the Expobar in the first place I guess my head got turned mostly by the rotary pump on the ECM and, personally, I think she's a little prettier too. (I think I also like the joysticks more than the rotary steam/water valves but that's really just a minor thing).

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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Hi RavenMad, as Matt pointed out I've written a thorough review on this forum of the Technika, I recommend it as worth a read.

    I'd visit your local site sponsor sooner rather than later so you don't get too many romantic ideas about one feature over another! For example, there are reasons you might prefer a vibration pump machine after seeing and listening to it in the flesh. Also you'll want to feel in person the difference in toggles vs no-crush valves. You can't really read about that and get the full picture.

    One of the biggest shocks to the system might be the manual lever. This thing is entirely manual, so you can't have a preset for group cleaning or shot timing. Some here will say no timer is good, and I generally agree, so if you're happy what going full manual means, I recommend it. Otherwise, ECM have an Electronika.

    Matt mentioned temp surfing of an HX - it's not really an issue in my opinion. Just name it as something you want your retailer to ensure: that the machine will pull shots at a suitable temp without flushing. If it is a problem, your after sales support will sort you out. JetBlack tweaked my machine for optimum temperature at the group while also retaining high steam pressure. Good times. I only flush now after I've released the portafilter to get loose grinds off the screen.

    The biggest reason you shouldn't get a T IV Profi is if you're only budgeting for the machine. This gets people fighting but I honestly believe it, if you have a Breville/sunbeam grinder - you won't make the most of this machine. I got a 64mm flat burr grinder at the start of this year after spending 6 months with a sunbeam. I was wishing that I had budgeted a little more! If you're restricted there, the rotary shouldn't be a deal breaker for you, go down to the vibration pump (they are well mounted in these machines - and if still a concern, can be tweaked by your retailer), maybe even go the Expobar and pick up a good entry level grinder.

    The ECM is lovely if you're aware of the extra costs you'll have to cover up front along with it. I don't wish I had a double boiler, but some like the idea of changing brew temps. If you have a good palate, like espresso nuances and are willing to put in the time (and coffee) to experiment with brew temps, by all means look at the new ECM double boiler. My hunch is most won't make use of its capability.
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Rotary is a pretty personal thing. It was a big issue for me at the start, but in hindsight shouldn't have been.

    I wouldn't worry about the milk capabilities of an HX, my Technika pumped out 30 flat whites within an hour on Sunday (plus some espressos). It can milk and extract just fine.

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    Thanks readeral - yep, as I mentioned above, your great post is what started me down the ECM rabbit hole in the first place! Thanks a lot - I was totally settled on the Expo before reading that! :P

    You've made some excellent points in your post above that I hadn't really considered. I'll definitely go into my local supplier (Adelaide so choices are limited) who I know carries the Expobar but I'm not sure they have the ECM so I won't be able to do a side by side comparison but it will give me a good idea of the noise level of the vibe pump on the Expo.

    Re manual control. I pretty much only ever use the manual pour on my Sunbeam so volumetric controls are not really necessary for me. I've even trained my missus to do the same so fully manual lever control is fine by me.

    Good to know about pre-setting the temps on a HX machine - if I do go down the HX path, I'll definitely mention that before I take it home.

    Ah, budgets. Yes, that may well indeed be the ultimate deal breaker for the ECM. I'm sure I could push the budget to spend the little extra for the ECM over the Expobar but I'm not sure how successful I'd then be spending more on a quality grinder. As you alluded, I am just using the EM0480 Sunbeam grinder which is limited and, to be honest, also on it's last legs so the need to also purchase a new grinder is not too far away. For the same cost as the ECM with rotary pump, my local supplier has the Expobar plus Macap M2M grinder for the same price.

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    ECM Technika Profi IV is an extremely stable HX. I didn't find any need to temperature surf with flushing when I had mine (it was the vibe pump version) and I was able to check it with a Scace. If I were forced to go back two machines I expect that I would perfectly happy with the ECM all over again!
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    I put up with my EM0480, and I got coffees, but I learned bad habits on the ECM by using it (overdosing my baskets, not properly distributing, not properly dialling in my coffees) - so if you think you can secure an upgrade within a set timeframe, you can ride it out.
    I also managed to coerce JetBlack to offer me a 'package' price on the grinder when I upgraded, and they were good for it when I returned. Quality service that.

    As kwantfm says, the Profi is really stable. It's a mighty solid machine, and once it's at temp, it's remarkably stable. The engineering on this thing is great. When you buy a machine, the seller will likely want a day or two to get it running sweet, so they'll check the temperature stability and flow rate and stuff then, before you come back to collect it. I caught JetBlack by surprise (didn't tell them when I was coming in until the morning of) which is why a thermosyphon restrictor went in later.

    The other thing I like about having an HX instead of a double boiler (in my context - because I won't use the features) is that it uses less power. *shrug* What's a perk for me is frustration for someone else :P

    Bummer about having limited options in SA. I'm not sure there's even a site sponsor down there anymore? If you happen to swing through inner Sydney at any point, I'll let you have a play
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    I have an ECM mechanika vibe profi and its great. Can punch out a heap of brews as fast as I can make them. Vibe pump really isnt that loud IMO. Unless you plan to plumb it in and it doesnt have to be ultra quiet, save the $$$ and go a vibe in my view. You can have an ultra quiet rotary, but chances are that your grinder will be 5 x as noisy anyway!
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    It should be said that your grinder runs for only 1/5th of the time of your espresso machine though...

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    Heh, you guys aren't making it any easier! Which ultimately tells me that I'd probably be very happy with either. Of course, kwantfm and snedden have thrown in a third option - the ECM with vibe pump. This makes it entirely comparable with the Expo on price and still gives me room to get a new grinder at the same time. Might just be the best of both worlds if the vibe pump is not that loud (again, I have to keep reminding myself that it's likely to be a lot quieter than the Sunbeam!).

    readeral - the Expo can switch off the steam boiler so would save some energy there but, most of the time, I'd be steaming milk too so, yeah, no savings for me there Re suppliers in Adelaide, unfortunately no site sponsors down here (that I know of - apologies if there are!) but Café Services here are Expobar agents so at least I know there's reliable servicing available to me if I go that route. Otherwise, I'll order the ECM from either JetBlack or dodgy x. (I might not have posted here much but I've lurked for years. This site is what has enabled me to fix my 6910 several times over. Steam pump repair and replace, group collar burr fixes, portafilter lugs, etc. Hence, "if it breaks again, you can get a new machine". )

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    TC
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    Welcome RavenMad,

    I'm going to throw a spanner in the works. You do not need a dual boiler machine as your brief (milk based) will more than adequately be met by a HX machine, In addition you are in awful water city (where espresso machines go to die). That's also a HX brief. Simpler = easier to fix when something does go pop.

    You would be more than adequately served by something like a VBM Domobar Junior or similar $2-2.5k HX machine. I'd suggest you start looking there. http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/buying-...esso-machines/ may also assist you.

    Cooling flush? Forget about it. It is not relevant to discussions re well configured machines and I for one wish that people would leave that 10 year old skeleton in the closet. It would sure save me a whole heap of time....

    Good luck with your shopping and I'm happy to provide some pros and cons without sales pitch if you'd ever like a chat. We ship to Adelaide and have warranty and service in place.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Last edited by TC; 3rd May 2016 at 02:55 PM.
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    A few good points with the ECM
    -very good resale
    -great aesthetics
    -solid build quality
    -portafilter handles are very solid and weighty, feeling great in the hand. I think they are far superior quality to comparible rocket machines etc

    I don't regret my ECM purchase one big. Very happy with the performance and looks.
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    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    This thread is hitting a lot of imortant points that will help several buyers with these 2 machines in mind..

    1. Getting your hx calibrated correctly to not require a flush is a must. When I owned a Bezzera Galatea the flush annoyed me until I got it sorted, even then, I'd take a PID option db anyday due to playing with temps for different beans and to be sure to not have to flush. As readeral said, if you don't care for experimenting with temp to affect taste then it's not a big deal. It's the consistency I appreciate.

    2. Some vibe pumps are noisier than others. The way they are isolated in the case can make a difference. I love the quietness of a rotary and the option to plumb in if needed one day, but it's not what would make or break my decision to buy a machine over another. I own an r58 and I don't have it plumbed in (only the drainage). My advice is forget the noise of the machine it's not a good enough reason to base a choice on.

    As for a hx's ability to produce steam, no problems at all. Readeral gave a good indication as to how much steam they can put out.

    The power savings debate is not so persuading for me. These boilers are insulated very well and a steam boiler comes up to temp rather quickly so on a Minore you could just flick the steam boiler switch off and leave the machine on. Its the group head you don't want to cool down. The steam boiler will be up and running in under 10 mins if you flick it back on. Something to consider.

    A very important factor to not overlook as already mentioned is the grinder. Don't settle for a lesser grinder just to get a more expensive machine. You'll appreciate making a good grinder choice early. My advice is always get the best grinder to suit you budget, needs and taste before getting the best machine. Grinder upgraditis sucks.

    Keep the thread going CSers!
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    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    In addition you are in awful water city (where espresso machines go to die).
    Now that's something I hadn't thought about or ever had to consider living in Brisbane. Good consideration to bring up.

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    Chris, thanks for the welcome (although I've been lurking for years) and for your comments. Yes, I didn't really have anything against HX machines but when I saw the Expobar with DB at it's price-point, it seemed like the best of everything (esp given the general thoughts of many that DB>HX). I'm sure I'd be perfectly served by a HX machine and you make a very good point re Adelaide water. Having said that, I have only used filtered water (under sink, dual filters) in my 6+yr old Sunbeam and never had an issue with scale etc. I only replaced the steam pump a couple of weeks ago which I think is not too bad after 6 years. Also, thank you for the sage comment about cooling flushes - what you say makes very good sense and I'll make sure that whichever machine I buy, it's properly calibrated before I take it home.

    At everyone - thanks heaps for all your comments, advice, etc. I think I'm still leaning towards the ECM but I'll definitely consider going with the vibe pump and reserve the rest of my budget on a decent grinder. Happy to keep the thread ticking - go at it!

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    I see on the Minore's specs each boiler has a 2000W heating element. Does heating cycle between each boiler?

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    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    I see on the Minore's specs each boiler has a 2000W heating element. Does heating cycle between each boiler?
    Hi simonko,

    Yes I believe they do cycle between each boiler. No an issue once properly warmed up.
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    Adelaide = awful water city=where espresso machines go to die? correct me if I am wrong, Is that another 10 year old skeleton in the closet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    Adelaide = awful water city=where espresso machines go to die? correct me if I am wrong, Is that another 10 year old skeleton in the closet?
    No. It continues to be fact. Refer your local tech.

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    Senior Member Logga's Avatar
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    1. Getting your hx calibrated correctly to not require a flush is a must.
    I mite of missed something here, but what does it take to calibrate a hx correctly so it doesn't require a flush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    Adelaide = awful water city=where espresso machines go to die? correct me if I am wrong, Is that another 10 year old skeleton in the closet?
    I live in the Hills where it doesn't seem quite so bad but, down on the plains, the water quality is still pretty average. Mind you, our drinking water is filtered so I haven't had to drink tap water at home for a very long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logga View Post
    1. Getting your hx calibrated correctly to not require a flush is a must.
    I mite of missed something here, but what does it take to calibrate a hx correctly so it doesn't require a flush.
    For a knowledgeable and properly equipped Tech, not long at all....

    Mal.

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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logga View Post
    1. Getting your hx calibrated correctly to not require a flush is a must.
    I mite of missed something here, but what does it take to calibrate a hx correctly so it doesn't require a flush.
    Measuring the grouphead with a Scace device to determine the brew temperature, and then making any necessary mechanical adjustments to hit optimum brewing temperatures. Some machines may be well configured from the get go, others may not. It might require reducing the boiler pressure, it might be to introduce a restrictor to the thermosyphon - slowing hot water getting to the group - so it doesn't get as warm. It entirely depends on how your dealer chooses to configure the machine.

    Basically - it takes a phone call
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    Senior Member Logga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Measuring the grouphead with a Scace device to determine the brew temperature, and then making any necessary mechanical adjustments to hit optimum brewing temperatures. Some machines may be well configured from the get go, others may not. It might require reducing the boiler pressure, it might be to introduce a restrictor to the thermosyphon - slowing hot water getting to the group - so it doesn't get as warm. It entirely depends on how your dealer chooses to configure the machine.

    Basically - it takes a phone call
    Thanks for that, mite have to go see my dealer tomorrow, my espresso dealer, that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenMad View Post
    I live in the Hills where it doesn't seem quite so bad but, down on the plains, the water quality is still pretty average. Mind you, our drinking water is filtered so I haven't had to drink tap water at home for a very long time.
    Under sink filters do not soften the tap water, only filter out the chlorine, impurities etc.

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    Hey Ravenmad,

    I'm on the same journey as you right now and have trolled the Internet looking for info on the ECM T among a couple of other contenders. The one thing that might be a deal beaker for me is that the Aus version has a Mater pressurestat as opposed to the Sirai (commercial grade) on the US model / as displayed by Todd from Whole Latte Love in one of the videos they have done.

    My question to owners of the T profi is does this make much of a difference? Or am I concerned about something that is a non issue?

    Thanks,

    Aidan

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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    I asked that same question of Charlie when I bought mine from JetBlack. It's a non issue.

    Basically, don't leave your machine on for hours and hours every day, and the Mater will last you 10 years. If and when it does cark it, Charlie reckoned he'd be happy to retrofit a Sirai in for me. As the Profitecs use the Sirai, and they're very similar machines, he says there are parts readily available.

    If you're really concerned about the Mater, then purchase a Profitec, but I wouldn't worry. You can get bogged down in every little spec available, but at the end of the day, your main concern should be whether it's serviceable.

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    What will be the best way to operate the ECM machine then? What I have been doing so far is to turn on the machine every time I want to pull a shot. Once the machine is ready, I pull the shot and turn it off after I am done pulling the shot. Is that a good practice?
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Yup. But depends how soon after you want another shot... Up to you Sometimes, usually on the weekend, I'll leave my machine on for a few hours, cause I know that 30 minutes after I have a coffee my wife will want a coffee, then 40 minutes later I'll want another one myself. I'm not stressing about it. No one has complained here about clapped out ECM pressurestats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by symphonie View Post
    Under sink filters do not soften the tap water, only filter out the chlorine, impurities etc.
    I believe you can get standard fit cartridges for under sink filters that soften water via ion exchange...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenMad View Post
    I believe you can get standard fit cartridges for under sink filters that soften water via ion exchange...
    You're right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopiku View Post
    What will be the best way to operate the ECM machine then? What I have been doing so far is to turn on the machine every time I want to pull a shot. Once the machine is ready, I pull the shot and turn it off after I am done pulling the shot. Is that a good practice?
    I leave my machine on most of the day when im home, never have any issues. Keeps it ready to go for whenever I want a coffee, not needing to heat up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    I asked that same question of Charlie when I bought mine from JetBlack. It's a non issue.

    Basically, don't leave your machine on for hours and hours every day, and the Mater will last you 10 years. If and when it does cark it, Charlie reckoned he'd be happy to retrofit a Sirai in for me. As the Profitecs use the Sirai, and they're very similar machines, he says there are parts readily available.

    If you're really concerned about the Mater, then purchase a Profitec, but I wouldn't worry. You can get bogged down in every little spec available, but at the end of the day, your main concern should be whether it's serviceable.
    I might get in contact with my local store I purchased mine from, my mechanika requires a cooling flush between sitting longer then 5 minutes, its definately a little "steamy" otherwise. My pressure generally sits around 1.1 bar when its at temp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    That's the way to do it. No need to use a cooling flush or temperature surf with a good HX machine like a Technika.
    Or any other well set up HX machine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snedden9485 View Post
    I might get in contact with my local store I purchased mine from, my mechanika requires a cooling flush between sitting longer then 5 minutes, its definately a little "steamy" otherwise. My pressure generally sits around 1.1 bar when its at temp.
    If you see steam, that's fine. If you hear steam, it's probably too hot.

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    My technika sits around 1.3, with no hissing or spluttering. Was purchased from Di bartoli and am pretty sure it has a restrictor fitted. Readeral has posted along these lines too previously.

    Definitely worth talking to local tech or supplier as my understanding is that a well setup machine in Australia generally shouldn't require a cooling flush but machines set up for the European, especially Italian market run significantly hotter and may do depending on your palette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    If you see steam, that's fine. If you hear steam, it's probably too hot.
    If my machine has sat longer than 5 or so minutes ill likely get a a few seconds of hiss and gurgle of steamy water. So likely its a little hot?
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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    This is the kinda talk I was referring to - not decade-old hearsay; actual feedback from people who own HX machines now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    particularly if you're happy to accept slightly compromised steam performance.
    Morning Matt, I frequently read statements such as this and must admit to a degree of confusion, my Bezzera Domus Galatea has a 2 litre boiler and is a steamin demon, great steam pressure and never a hint of running out.

    Seems everyone is now of the opinion that single boiler machines are steam compromised and a double boiler is a must have if you want to steam milk, the Bezzera is the only HX machine I have owned so cant make any comparison.

    Wondering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Morning Matt, I frequently read statements such as this and must admit to a degree of confusion, my Bezzera Domus Galatea has a 2 litre boiler and is a steamin demon, great steam pressure and never a hint of running out.

    Seems everyone is now of the opinion that single boiler machines are steam compromised and a double boiler is a must have if you want to steam milk, the Bezzera is the only HX machine I have owned so cant make any comparison.

    Wondering.
    I read a lot of comments like this and wonder the same thing Yelta. I'm of the understanding that an hx is often preferable to a dual boiler for milk drinkers, for one the flavour difference when adjusting temps is negligible, and the hx often has a larger boiler than the steam boiler on a DB, at least on domestic machines. also
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  43. #43
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    I would expect an HX to have better steam pressure potential in general, as it allows for a bigger boiler to fit inside the case.

    But if sold them, I would definitely set it up for no flush at a compromised steam performance so the customer who just wants good, no frills coffee never gets it too hot and can more easily get quality microfoam.

    I set my BZ99 up for a 45 second recovery after a complete flush of the heat exchanger. This is what it takes me to dry the PF, grind, tamp and lock in the PF, and gives kicking steam pressure. However if desperate for a coffee before the group head had got to temperature, I had the option of doing a partial flush or waiting longer.
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  44. #44
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonko View Post
    But if sold them, I would definitely set it up for no flush at a compromised steam performance so the customer who just wants good, no frills coffee never gets it too hot and can more easily get quality microfoam.
    Hmmm, this muddies the water even more, my machine doesn't need a cooling flush, even after long periods of being left on, the steam pressure or volume is in no way compromised.
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  45. #45
    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    Yes boiler size factor does come into it. I've owned 2 hx machines and the steam is incredible so that really needs to be put to rest. As for the variabe temps being negligible, that I will disagree with. It's not negligible. If you like to roast your own beans or drink a lot of different SO beans a PID allows you to fine tune the extraction to hit the right taste. I find that 2 degrees can be all a bean needs to hit that sweet spot. If milk drinks are the users main preference, then yes it's not important.
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  46. #46
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo89 View Post
    If milk drinks are the users main preference, then yes it's not important.
    Yep, that was what I meant in my post, I just worded it badly.
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  47. #47
    Senior Member gonzo89's Avatar
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    All good Magnafunk I thought so anyway. I was only clarifying it for educational purposes for others who might like to play with temps.

  48. #48
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Morning Matt, I frequently read statements such as this and must admit to a degree of confusion, my Bezzera Domus Galatea has a 2 litre boiler and is a steamin demon, great steam pressure and never a hint of running out.

    Seems everyone is now of the opinion that single boiler machines are steam compromised and a double boiler is a must have if you want to steam milk, the Bezzera is the only HX machine I have owned so cant make any comparison.

    Wondering.
    Well... if you read the part of my post you quoted in context it should hopefully be a bit clearer

    What I was saying is that as an HX doesn't allow independent adjustment of brew and steam temperatures, adjusting boiler temperature down (eg to suit a particular bean) will reduce steam performance when compared to the default boiler temperature - not that HX machines are inherently poor steamers.

    Again, just my understanding from what others have told me online and irl - not based on personal experience.

  49. #49
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Morning Matt, I frequently read statements such as this and must admit to a degree of confusion, my Bezzera Domus Galatea has a 2 litre boiler and is a steamin demon, great steam pressure and never a hint of running out.

    Seems everyone is now of the opinion that single boiler machines are steam compromised and a double boiler is a must have if you want to steam milk, the Bezzera is the only HX machine I have owned so cant make any comparison.

    Wondering.
    Well said Yelta...

    Mal.
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  50. #50
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    I really don't think that we're comparing apples with apples here....

    Too many lounge room Tech's believing too much of what they read around the Net.
    Much better to talk to some Pro's, like some of our esteemed Site Sponsors who do actually know what they are talking about...

    Mal.
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