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Thread: Giotto

  1. #1
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Giotto

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Not looking to upgrade, my hat is safe for now... but I spied this comparison online and thought it was interesting.

    I'd always assumed 'Giotto' was just a Rocket branding term, I guess linked to the intricate and confusing history of companies being sold, renamed etc., but seems from this that it actually refers to the body shape and a few brands sell Giotto machines. Probably not news to anyone else, but interesting to me

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  2. #2
    TC
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    One brand (and it's not Rocket Espresso) which was involved in the carve up of ECM Italy has more recently produced a Giotto "copy" which looks ok on the outside... I'd guess some sour grapes might be involved?

    Having seen inside the Evo copy, I can't say I am in the least bit concerned about the opposition. You can purchase a Giotto or a clone. Figured it would have been the Chinese to rip it off, but just goes to show. They will most likely be attractive to companies which have not been appointed as resellers of the legit product.

    I'd think most here are astute enough to make themselves aware of the differences and choose as they see fit.

    Will be interesting to see how they fare on retained value when they become available for sale 2nd hand....
    Last edited by TC; 19th July 2016 at 05:39 PM. Reason: grammar

  3. #3
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    My biggest disappointment with my Rocket Giotto premium plus is that I haven't been able to justify an upgrade.
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  4. #4
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I didn't know La Pavoni were building them. That's certainly a company with a very long espresso tradition so it will be interesting to see what happens in that space.

    I have owned 3 different Giotto's, all great machines and the last one I just couldn't say bye-bye to.

    It's duties are now school sports days and simple on-site work. Small enough to carry into a venue without a coffee cart, plugs into a normal power point, runs off a tank and produces excellent coffee and steam all day.

    Great machines and even second hand can be excellent value with a fairly simple parts list making them pretty easy to maintain.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    My biggest disappointment with my Rocket Giotto premium plus is that I haven't been able to justify an upgrade.
    Since when has that stopped a CoffeeSnob)
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    MM saw on the HB forum the comment that the Rocker Giottos were over priced. Not sure that's accurate. From what I know they are are damn good machine. Would be very brave to fork out 2.5 - 2.6 on an untested clone.

  7. #7
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    We are the importers of the La Pavoni Giotto and Celini range.

    We were hoping to announce a gradual launch of the machines in August explaining the origin of the machines and our work in bringing them to the Australian market.

    It looks like we need to bring this forward a bit earlier now.

    A little bit of history.
    The original Giotto was made by the Italian company ECM, with the current recognised "Giotto" body shape. From my understanding ECM Italy got into financial trouble and parts of it business were sold off resulting in ECM Germany and also the Rocket Giotto company.

    Recently an Italian company "Espresso Group" has been formed and now has under its umbrella Isomac, La Pavoni and ECM Italy.

    We have been the La Pavoni agent in Australia for 6 years, concentrating mainly on their lever machines which I am sure many of you know.

    In December last year La Pavoni sent me details on their new Giotto/Cellini range. We were excited about the new models and soon had a better understanding of the Giotto name and the history of ECM.

    We have had three machines here since January and have spent the last six months testing, modifying and evaluating them. We have made numerous changes and taken advice from Rick "The Coffee Machinist" in developing these machines for the Australian market. We have worked closely with the factory in Italy and are now satisfied with the end product and are bringing them to the Australian market in August this year.
    The modifications we have made are being done for the Australian market only.

    la Pavoni - Dal 1905 macchine per caffè

    These machines are also the ECM Italy models.

    I certainly don't consider these a "cheap" rip of the Rockets. They are being produced by ECM Italy/La Pavoni who were the original Giotto manufacturers.

    We have thought long and hard about these machines and have spent many $1000 making sure they are right for the market and that we are happy to import, supply and stand by the product.

    Available for any questions or comments

    Regards

    Antony
    Casa Espresso
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    Interesting post. What is confusing is how ECM Italy was split and I'm assuming lost rights to their IP to Rocket and ECM Germany only to resurface with the same brand.

    Hypothetically if the espresso group was to buy Breville does that mean we'd have a Breville Giotto with the same look?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickm View Post
    MM saw on the HB forum the comment that the Rocker Giottos were over priced. Not sure that's accurate. From what I know they are are damn good machine. Would be very brave to fork out 2.5 - 2.6 on an untested clone.
    I didn't take much notice of that comment; about as much as I would of criticsm from people who haven't laid eyes on the other two brands TBH - just white noise. Difficult to see some other opinions as unaffected by vested interest... sour grapes perhaps?

    @thread...

    Either way, my reason for posting was simply to start a discussion around the history and design of these three branches of the same family tree, two of which I was unaware of until recently. Not to invite a peeing contest...

    To reiterate the disclaimer at the start of my post - I'm not in the market, and even if I were, wouldn't consider any of the three giotto lines as they don't offer a lever variant afaict. If I was interested in buying, then yes - of course I would thoroughly investigate all three options and weigh the pros and cons of each, price and pedigree included. I'd encourage anyone who is in the market to do the same.
    Last edited by Magic_Matt; 20th July 2016 at 07:00 PM.
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  10. #10
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    It is not often that I comment on Coffee Snobs but thought it important that the correct information was available to buyers of the Rocket Espresso brand.
    In July of 2007 the Rocket Espresso Group purchased from the Italian company ECM the IP and full rights to the entire domestic espresso machine portfolio being produced and obtained a full restraint of trade from them. This purchase included the Giotto and the Cellini machines.
    In October of 2008 the Italian company ECM went into receivership.
    In 2010 La Pavoni through the UniVest group bought the remainder of the ECM brand, being ONLY the commercial machine production as the rest of the business had been sold in an endeavour to save itself from bankruptcy.
    What needs to be very clear is that ECM NEVER produced the Giotto / Cellini, PID nor Evoluzione amongst other models and these models were ONLY EVER produced by Rocket Espresso from 2011.
    Given this we now need to look at the timeline which clearly establishes that La Pavoni therefore copied a product that only ever existed in the Rocket Espresso model range, as La Pavoni bought ECM in February 2010 and the Evoluzione was produced in 2011!
    The Rocket Espresso website has our Certified Authentic page where buyers can be assured they are purchasing the original Rocket Espresso machines and not copies. Rocket Espresso do not condone the copies of any product in any market.
    It should be made clear that Rocket Espresso will stand behind any machine we produce, through service and warranty without exception. We will however NOT allow our dealer network to support copies of our machines.
    For 9 years both Daniele Berenbruch and I have worked extremely hard to create a brand that we are extremely proud of. We will give our dealers and distributors our 100% support and if required take actions to protect infringements of our intellectual property in all markets.
    Andrew Meo General Manager / Partner Rocket Espresso.

  11. #11
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    @RocketEspresso thanks for clarifying some of the misconceptions.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketEspresso
    What needs to be very clear is that ECM NEVER produced the Giotto / Cellini, PID nor Evoluzione amongst other models and these models were ONLY EVER produced by Rocket Espresso from 2011.
    Now that's interesting. Thanks for the info.

    I'd hope nobody would buy a La Pavoni believing it to be a Rocket; the trademark lawyers will sort out the rest one way or another by the sound of it.

  13. #13
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    “What needs to be very clear is that ECM NEVER produced the Giotto / Cellini, PID nor Evoluzione amongst other models and these models were ONLY EVER produced by Rocket Espresso from 2011.”

    Fairly late to this thread but safe to say I’m confused about this explanation, I own a 2006 ECM Giotto, not a German ECM or a La Pavoni but an original.. I thought



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