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Thread: Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

  1. #1851
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    Right-handed people were shocked and appalled.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    screen 2019-05-05 at 2.50.47 PM.jpg

    A few people wrote to me that they were shocked and appalled that I had suggested a left-hand-focussed workflow in my previous posting.

    They worried that I was about to make a terrible blunder, and release a coffee cart product that nobody would want to use.

    Just to be clear: WE ARE NOT MAKING COFFEE CARTS.

    Here in Hong Kong, we're buying IKEA tables, and experimenting with our own ideas for workflow. You can make your own coffee cart workflow.

    We have no plans to make coffee carts. We want to sell espresso machines. The IKEA cart is an example of one setup. We'll be posting videos of what we've done, and I'm hoping others will post what they end up doing.

    My assumption is that everyone "knows best" what works best for them, and will organize Decent Espresso machines, grinders, tamping areas, pitchers rinsers, towels, all as they see fit. This is one of the great advantages of a single-group head, modular approach. Set up your workflow as you like.

    In the attached render, we've removed the group head handles (they unscrew, so you can remove them too) and used a pitcher rinser to space each machine. This is just another idea: you should lay out out Decent Workflow however you like.

    -john
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  2. #1852
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    Hi all,

    Perhaps highly specific question, but posting here in case it is pertinent to others. I am fairly nomadic and am curious about which voltage would be most appropriate for a DE1+. I am currently living in Asia (220V/50Hz), but country hop around the world every couple/few years and want to make sure I won’t have trouble down the line. Eventually it will land permanently in 120v/60Hz. I am leaning towards buying 110v and just using it on a transformer while in 220v countries.

    FWIW, I have been using a Gaggia Classic 110v (1450 wattage, according to the internet) on a 1000w transformer here for the last year and a half without issue. A wattage meter I have inline shows it has maxed out at about 1070w. I would probably get a bigger (1500w?) transformer to be safe.

    So the question is, any issues expected running a DE1+ on a step up/down transformer?

    Thanks,
    Dan

  3. #1853
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplegreen View Post
    So the question is, any issues expected running a DE1+ on a step up/down transformer?
    120V in a 220V country, with a transformer, is no problem whatsoever.

    The espresso machine sitting next to me here in Hong Kong, that I do all my programming with, is 120V, and running on a variac. I'm actually giving it 120V->50hz, which is a bit weird, but it works fine as the machine automatically adjusts to the frequency. In other words, you need to adjust the voltage for the espresso machine, but it's okay to not adjust the frequency.

    However, I would recommend upgrading your transformer to a 2200W one, that way you'll have full steam power.

    Speaking of which, I was planning on selling this lightly-used v1.0 DE1PRO 110V machine at USD$2000, if you're interested (still fully warrantied). I recently switched to a 220V machine in my office to save space. I haven't listed this with anyone yet.

    -john

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    workflow.jpg

    Here’s the final coffee cart, with workflow explained.

    Now with a smaller central steam wand.

    -john

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    Hofex Coffee Cart

    redback_decent.jpg

    Here's what our coffee cart looks like, actually running at the Hotel Expo (HOFEX) monster-large trade show in Hong Kong.

    Basically, we're making free coffee, with beans and milk courtesy of Australian/Hk based roaster Redback.

    -john
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  6. #1856
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    A Decent Point-of-Sale System?

    screen 2019-05-08 at 12.04.49 PM.jpg

    I was asked if we had plans for a "point of sale" system.

    Yes, that's exactly where we're headed.
    - The DE1XL metal tablet stand can hold the tablet, secured to the table, customer facing. We've left space in front of each DE1 for this.
    - One customer-facing tablet sits in front of each DE1.
    - You can then order, and the order is sent to a queue.
    - The barista sees the queue and at the end of each drink, taps on the queue items they will now make
    - If a site needs more coffees/hour capacity, they buy more coffee stations, and the queue is automatically shared by all DE1s at the site
    - So: you can order from any station, and your coffee will be made wherever it can be made most efficiently.
    - For example: if you order an unusual coffee (decaf, or an expensive bean) you might have your order made at one of the two-grinder/one-DE1 stations. But the majority of the stations will be "caffeinated, house blend" two-group/one-grinder.

    Other topic...

    "Private cafés" are a big concept I'm running with.

    Here in HK, the big law firms/finance firms don't want their staff having business conversations at the local Starbucks. So, they install a "company cafe" in their office lobby. That means free rent for the roaster, who operates it, bills the client, and we supply the equipment.

    I suspect most large companies of office workers, would be interested in the private café approach.

    Plus, it's a nice perq to use to recruit staff.

    I'm using HK to proof out this idea, debug it, and then will start pitching it to roasters in other cities.

    -john
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  7. #1857
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    Video: DE1XL Overview



    I just finished making this video explaining the differences between this new model and the existing Decent espresso machine models.

    One thing I realized afterward, is that I never talk about the actual functionality of the machine in this video. It's the same functionality as for our other models, so I'm expecting people to watch those other videos if they want to know about how we make coffee. Seem reasonable?

    All the parts for this new model are supposed to arrive in about two weeks.

    We've been having a bit of trouble getting an opaque white back panel that laser etches nicely. The current white panels are a bit translucent.

    The problem is that most plastics bubble in an unsightly way with laser etching, and I don't like screening because it wears off with time. We're hoping to finally have a solution to that this week, just about the same time when all the rest of the parts come in. The black panels were never a problem.

    -john

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    Two DE1XL in real-world use



    Here is Hannifa using two DE1XL espresso machines at the same time. You can see her steaming while making the espresso, and her overall workflow around the IKEA coffee cart.
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  9. #1859
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    Hi All,
    These are some specific questions for John, but I decided to post them here for the benefits of others. I've been searching for a while to finalize my decision for my next espresso machine (Heavily leaning towards DE) and I've been learning a lot about the Decent Espresso from this forum and others such as home-barista. Now to the questions:


    • Is the white color chassis and natural color portafilter handles only limited to the DEXL? Can the same be done for a DE1+Pro?
    • Is it possible to order a DE1+pro with a pro steam wand?
    • Can you run a 220v version with a transformer from a 110v source? If so, what are the ideal transformer specifications?
    • Does the 220V version reduces the steaming duration? If so, by how long?
    • Is the DECafe the only machine that can produce steam and shot at the same time?
    • Is there any plan in the future to expand this feature to other lines of DE?
    • Do you have a projected price range for the DECafe?

  10. #1860
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    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Hi All,
    These are some specific questions for John, but I decided to post them here for the benefits of others. I've been searching for a while to finalize my decision for my next espresso machine (Heavily leaning towards DE) and I've been learning a lot about the Decent Espresso from this forum and others such as home-barista. Now to the questions:


    • Is the white color chassis and natural color portafilter handles only limited to the DEXL? Can the same be done for a DE1+Pro?
    • Is it possible to order a DE1+pro with a pro steam wand?
    • Can you run a 220v version with a transformer from a 110v source? If so, what are the ideal transformer specifications?
    • Does the 220V version reduces the steaming duration? If so, by how long?
    • Is the DECafe the only machine that can produce steam and shot at the same time?
    • Is there any plan in the future to expand this feature to other lines of DE?
    • Do you have a projected price range for the DECafe?
    G'day baristafrenzy

    110V comments only (John / whoever can answer the rest).

    I lived in the US for a while. Although Java"I respect his opinions greatly"phile reckons you can get adequate power out of a 110V system by going three phase I found it didn't work properly on three different properties.

    That was with my six mono (for 5.1 channel) audio amps (220V Oz designed / modified Tillbrook 6000's). Each channel has 1.8KVA transformers. Plugging in the first two in their (pathetic) 3 phase system meant that the houses lights flickered in reverse time to every drumbeat - and that was before I wound the wick up to normal listening volume (i.e. loud enough for metal or classical orchestral). I also had issues with several coffee machines where the Oz 220V version could run continuously whereas even "the US 3 phase version" ran out of puff in less than 10 shots.

    I would suggest you get the 220V version anyway and thank your lucky stars that the Decent is fairly light on power compared to the beasts I was dealing with over there. Oh, I have (and love) a DE1 - this is first hand info.

    TampIt

  11. #1861
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    Short and sweet answers below...

    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Is the white color chassis and natural color portafilter handles only limited to the DEXL? Can the same be done for a DE1+Pro?
    White = only on DE1XL

    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Is it possible to order a DE1+pro with a pro steam wand?
    yes: https://decentespresso.com/accessories

    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Can you run a 220v version with a transformer from a 110v source? If so, what are the ideal transformer specifications?
    No. 110V on 220V yes, but not the other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Does the 220V version reduces the steaming duration? If so, by how long?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Is the DECafe the only machine that can produce steam and shot at the same time?
    yes
    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Is there any plan in the future to expand this feature to other lines of DE?
    No, because there's no space for it in the DE1+/DE1PRO/DE1XL chassis. We have to expand the chassis 30% to do steam-during brew. Hence the future DE1CAFE, in about a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Do you have a projected price range for the DECafe?
    Around USD$5300.

    -john

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    Lessons learned making a coffee cart

    lessons.jpg

    My lead barista Hannifa spent 4 days last week making hundreds of drinks a the monster-large HOFEX trade show in Hong Kong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwJnnsAyViI

    The coffee cart had some issues.

    Here's what we learned:

    1) the 3M double-sided tape that we used to mount the Android tablets to our own-design tablet stands, didn't hold up to heavy use. We need to find a stronger adhesive (bottom right photo)

    2) the magnets used to hold the printed signage allowed the signage to sag with time. We had to stack magnets at the bottom of the sign, making a magnetic ledge, to hold the signage in place. That was a bit of a hack.

    3) the many magnets holding the fake-drawers in place on the IKEA table, also allowed sagging. The drawer fell at one point on Hannifa's foot (ouch!).

    4) Don't assume that a pallet jack will be available. Two people showed up with small 4-wheeled trolleys and pushed the table FAST through the show floor. At one point, the table fell off the wheels, but surprisingly (for IKEA quality) the table held and didn't break. Big wheels mounted to the table would be been better.

    Otherwise, things held up well.

    -john

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    John,
    Thank you for responding to my questions. A few more questions as I am trying to finalize my decision on the DE.


    • Is the scale in barista kit compatible with the the DE bluetooth to pull gravimetric shot with it?
    • When will you begin the production of version 1.3 grouphead?
    • Some of your videos refer to version 2 and 3. Which version are you producing now and would briefly highlight the difference?


    Thanks,
    Matt

  14. #1864
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    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Is the scale in barista kit compatible with the the DE bluetooth to pull gravimetric shot with it?
    No, that scale is without Bluetooth. It is a standalone scale.


    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    • When will you begin the production of version 1.3 grouphead?
    I'm estimating October/November as a ship date for version 1.3. It will be both available as a new model, about US$300 more, or as a upgrade kit for people who already have the version 1.1 model from us. In other words, you don't need to delay purchasing in order to get the group ahead controller eventually on your machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    • Some of your videos refer to version 2 and 3. Which version are you producing now and would briefly highlight the difference?

    I'm not really sure what videos you are referring to, so it's hard for me to comment.

    We're currently producing version 1.1, and when we start shipping version 1.3, the main difference will be the group head controller, and a slightly higher price for that extra feature that is now standard.

    -john

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    We're a few weeks out from receiving the parts to be able to ship the DE1XL models, and I'm getting more questions about "what's different about it?". Same goes for the DE+ model. So, I made a video:


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    Forgot to include a power cable

    Unfortunately, about 20 machines last week got sent without a power cable.

    I'm the one who screwed up.

    Here's the backstory: our overall order volume has gone up 50% in the past three months, and my staff is having trouble keeping up. I decided to help do boxing for a few weeks. So: I changed the way in which these suitcases were made up.

    With the new method, they were all done ahead of time, 10 at a time (instead of one at a time), and then, whoops, in changing the process, I forgot to put the power cable in. My bad, and my apologies again. I'm UPSing out cables to people where I screwed up.

    IMG_0201.jpeg

    Note that you can use a normal computer cable with your espresso machine for now, so at least you can make coffee while you wait for the better cable to arrive.

    Here is a short film about how we used to box each machine, one at a time. It took 30 minutes for each.



    My new way reduced this to 6 minutes per machine, though obviously there are some "bugs in the process" that need to be worked out. The power cable (which is unique for each order, based on destination country) was supposed to be included right before shipping. We have a checklist, but because I'd changed the process, I didn't use it. Lesson learned.

    -john

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    Natural wood handles, beta 1

    4 samples of the pale-wood group and portafilter handles just arrived form our wood-turning supplier. These are for the DE1XL model, or as an optional accessory for everyone else.

    The finish is virtually invisible, which I like, and they got the shape right. However, the company appears to have used a too-aggressive buffing wheel, and 90º scratches appear on the handles. You can see these scratches at 1:01 in the video.

    I'm really fussy, and I also do the tech support here (with help from others) and in 3 months I'd rather not be apologizing for these scratches. So, I'm asking them to try again.

    Except for this issue, the handles look great to me.

    -john


  18. #1868
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    Shin, who works as my representative in South Korea, wrote up his experiences from exhibiting at a recent trade show. More importantly, he made this video explaining everything he told people about my machine. It's in Korean (with English subs) but I think it's pretty comprehensive.

    Here's Shin's post to our internal discussion:

    -john

    ----

    There were a lot of visitors came to Decent booth and seen the Demo.
    And I read some reviews about the show, and people were saying about our booth like "The machine was quite novel and they explained in detail and pretty well"
    So here's the Demo.
    And it's quite too long video so I'll upload it in two videos
    --------------------------------------
    This video is also helpful for new users to understand how to deal with profile and graph. Enjoy!
    The video is in Korean and I put subtitles below




    00:21 Decent booth setting at Coffee expo
    01:05 : Introduction
    02:09 Appearance
    03:13 making Profile
    04:11 Pressure Profile
    07:07 What bluetooth scale : SKALE2 does
    09:24 How to get slower flow rate
    10:52 What Catering kit does
    11:09 Flow Profile

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    Backlog be gone

    We've managed to speed up building espresso machines, and order backlog is now mostly fulfilled.

    We have a few DE1+ and DE1PRO in stock (120V and 230V), so that new orders get their machines shipped right away.

    Assuming we can continue building at this pace, I'm hoping we can continue to have "no waiting time" for new customers. After paying a few thousand for an espresso machine, it's nice to receive it in a few days.

    The DE1XL model is still not available. We're shipping people a DE1PRO right away, with the "XL conversion kit" to follow a few weeks later. I'll post here once all our models are in stock, which hopefully will be in a few weeks.

    https://decentespresso.com/model

    -john


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    Magic scale?



    A customer made this video for me, of our simple scale being affected by his hand's proximity. I had never seen this before, so I took one scale out of a (new) box, and another I use all the time. I wasn't able to cause any effect.

    I've already offered to refund this customer, but I'm really scratching my head as to what is going on? Any ideas?

    -john

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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post

    A customer made this video for me, of our simple scale being affected by his hand's proximity. I had never seen this before, so I took one scale out of a (new) box, and another I use all the time. I wasn't able to cause any effect.

    I've already offered to refund this customer, but I'm really scratching my head as to what is going on? Any ideas?

    -john
    G'day John

    A semi related issue - just in case it triggers some diagnostic "ah ha" for you.

    I intended to place my Bonavita coffee scale (which has its own drip tray) on the bench mat, lined up with where the Decent drip tray normally sits on my DE1Pro. I even cut an extra hole in the Bonavita drip tray to match the DE1 water drain (no big deal - a 1 minute job).

    Good news - it is a perfect "non contact" fit with about 1cm clearance everywhere.

    Bad news: I cannot use my Bonavita scale too close to my DE1 as something in the machine futzes up the Bonavita's (strain gauges? electronics?) and the reading slowly varies at random without any weight change.

    Originally I thought it was vibration as my DE1 went through a brief running in period of moderate vibration which has now ceased - however the issue still exists... Exit that hypothesis.

    I now suspect RFI, although that is almost impossible to prove without the correct detection gear.

    My same scales can be placed directly on and/or under "about 20" other commercial espresso machine's drip trays I have used (when setting them up) and are unaffected. Pretty weird.

    No drama at all at my end as long as the Decent scale (already paid for via another DE1 owner) eventually doesn't pull the same stunt.

    I know it is a first world problem, however my sheer curiosity would really like to know what the hell is going on.

    Other than that "minor non-issue", the DE1 is by far the best home machine I know of. Not perfect but seriously capable of rivaling / exceeding manual levers without the arcane rituals and limited numbers of cups "on the trot". A very happy camper...

    TampIt
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  22. #1872
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    Very interesting! I have a similar experience with my Acaia Lunar scales. When I place them on the drip tray they start counting up at varying rates. The last few days it's been quite fast - maybe 0.1 g per second. It can also be quite slow - 0.1 g every 5-10 seconds. I always tare it out just before the shot starts to drop.

    Hadn't considered radio interference before but that seems a likely explanation.

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    Get an earthing strap from an electronics hobbyist shop, put it on - connect or touch the other end of the strap to the metal part of an earthed bit of electrical gear and try it again.

    If this is the only scale you got that does this it's likely to be a high impedance return path, (high resistance connection somewhere).
    Now it could be easy - or screening in the Microprocessor itself or a high impedance battery etc.etc.etc.

    If the anti static strap doesn't work - get the scale exorcised.
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    rfi? user wearing a smartwatch?

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    Café in a suitcase

    Here is a sneak peak at what we're going to show at the SCAE show in Berlin next week.

    We've modified our suitcase to be a fully plumbed in DE1XL + pitcher rinser.

    Shipping the IKEA table between HK and Berlin was going to cost €4000 (!!!).

    And I reasoned that if we wanted an "easy to ship, popup high volume cafe" that there might be others who want this too.

    The DE1XL goes in one suitcase, and the pitcher rinser/countersunk bracket goes in the another.

    -john

    screen 2019-05-29 at 5.11.50 PM.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    120V in a 220V country, with a transformer, is no problem whatsoever.

    The espresso machine sitting next to me here in Hong Kong, that I do all my programming with, is 120V, and running on a variac. I'm actually giving it 120V->50hz, which is a bit weird, but it works fine as the machine automatically adjusts to the frequency. In other words, you need to adjust the voltage for the espresso machine, but it's okay to not adjust the frequency.

    However, I would recommend upgrading your transformer to a 2200W one, that way you'll have full steam power.

    Speaking of which, I was planning on selling this lightly-used v1.0 DE1PRO 110V machine at USD$2000, if you're interested (still fully warrantied). I recently switched to a 220V machine in my office to save space. I haven't listed this with anyone yet.

    -john
    Boy, thanks for saying that! I've been fretting for a while now which model to buy. I live in the US right now, but I plan on relocating to Australia in 3 years time and I was hoping I could have one machine the whole way through. I'm pleased to see that someone else had my problem and saved me the trouble of asking.

    Would you happen to be willing to specify the model variac you're using? There's a lot of stuff out there with questionable construction quality. I might be interested in the DE1PRO too, if that's still on the table...I was going to wait for the 1.3, but that's a compelling sell...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjuzhet View Post
    Would you happen to be willing to specify the model variac you're using? There's a lot of stuff out there with questionable construction quality..
    Both times I have bought a transformer, it was from Amazon and I haven't had a problem. However, that was in the UK, and then France, and I'm sure that what you have available to you in Australia are different brands.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjuzhet View Post
    I might be interested in the DE1PRO too, if that's still on the table..
    Unfortunately, that machine sold the same day I mentioned here.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjuzhet View Post
    I was going to wait for the 1.3, but that's a compelling sell...
    FYI, version 1.1 will have an upgrade kit available to give it the same features as version 1.3, at the same price difference as the new model (USD$300). It should ship about the same time as version 1.3 ships.

    -john

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    The Decent is definitely perking my interest. Do you have a timeframe of when version 1.3 will be shipping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by we1han View Post
    The Decent is definitely perking my interest. Do you have a timeframe of when version 1.3 will be shipping?
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...tml#post651975

    Check post #1864 above (October/November)

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    Does anyone has the specification of the Decent Espresso poratfilter wood handle? I need it for a custom wood work. My search here and at Home-Barista hasn’t return any results.

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    Barista Frenzy, email John, people talk highly of his responsiveness. There isnt a tonne of these in the field and less still who changed the handle. He could tell you straight up if it is an m10 thread or similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Does anyone has the specification of the Decent Espresso poratfilter wood handle? I need it for a custom wood work. My search here and at Home-Barista hasn’t return any results.
    G'day baristafrenzy

    IF you are in the West, I actually bought 2 naked p/fs (just like every other machine i have ever owned). I could spare one for a couple of days. BTW, they are a brilliant design - one of the best I know of. Perfectly balanced in the hand and both light and solid enough to feel that they will "go the distance".

    TampIt
    Oh, I nearly forgot - the handle is painted wood if you didn't already know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Does anyone has the specification of the Decent Espresso poratfilter wood handle? I need it for a custom wood work. My search here and at Home-Barista hasn’t return any results.
    M10 thread
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  34. #1884
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    Thank you for your generous offer, TampIt! I'm going to reach out to John and see what I hear back from him.

  35. #1885
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    Quote Originally Posted by baristafrenzy View Post
    Thank you for your generous offer, TampIt! I'm going to reach out to John and see what I hear back from him.
    Indeed, m10.

    I was in Berlin for the world of coffee tradeshow, and thus off-line so my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

    – John

  36. #1886
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    Smart Espresso Profiler (SEP) & Decent

    I was in Berlin last week at the world of coffee tradeshow, where I finally got to meet Gabor, the genius behind my favorite coffee related films

    who also happens to be (along with Miklos) behind the smart espresso profiler https://www.naked-portafilter.com/sm...esso-profiler/

    I pulled a wonderfully sweet and interesting lever shot using SEP, though I decided not to follow the existing trace, and instead tried to use a declining pressure profile by hand to maintain stable flow. Their software has a nice feature where your shot along with a photograph gets emailed to you, so let me duly comply with their social media strategy and post it here.

    I can also report back at the SEP software can now export traces, which can then be imported into "God Shot" traces on the decent espresso machine. You can import them into the android version of the decent espresso software, as well as the Windows, Macintosh or Linux version.

    To import an SEP shot, copy the CSV into this directory where your decent espresso software runs:
    /de1plus/godshots/import/common

    The next time you run the decent espresso app, the traces will be imported. You can find them by tapping the "heart" icon in the decent espresso app. In this case this was espresso #181:
    
    And when imported it caused a trace to appear in the decent espresso app.
    
    I just tested it, and it worked fairly well.

    If you look at the debug log when my app runs, this is the information that appears, which gives quite a bit of detail. It looks like I have a small error parsing the date.

    Also, I apparently am converting the flow information into volumetric flow (blue line) in my software, where’s it should be charted as gravimetric flow (brown line).

    However, these are very small things, that I can fix tomorrow. It basically works already, quite nicely.

    -john

    sepdecent.jpg
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  37. #1887
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    In Berlin



    A very brief view of Decent Espresso at the World of Coffee show.

    Very, very busy for 3 days, as Scott Rao was pulling his 28% extraction shots. Lots of coffee celebrities (and the "little people" too) came by to taste.

    -john

    woc.jpg
    Last edited by decentespresso; 17th June 2019 at 06:04 PM.

  38. #1888
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post

    A very brief view of Decent Espresso at the World of Coffee show.

    Very, very busy for 3 days, as Scott Rao was pulling his 28% extraction shots. Lots of coffee celebrities (and the "little people" too) came by to taste.

    -john

    Do you mean you have dwarves coming by, or is that just how you refer to everyone who isn't a coffee celebrity?
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  39. #1889
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Do you mean you have dwarves coming by, or is that just how you refer to everyone who isn't a coffee celebrity?
    Had a similar thought 338, perhaps Oomploompa's.
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  40. #1890
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    I thought everyone who enjoyed good coffee was a celebrity..
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  41. #1891
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    I thought the "little people" were the ones who purchase products, who are the end users, the ones who actually keep business going by spending their hard earned on products.

    They are more important than the "coffee celebrities" in the whole scheme of things.
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  42. #1892
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Is Scotty Rao the bloke in Happy Days? Joanie's boyfriend?
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  43. #1893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Is Scotty Rao the bloke in Happy Days? Joanie's boyfriend?
    Yep- that’s him
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  44. #1894
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    Always good to know your station in life.


    Mr Rao deserves his celebrity status, I read on his blog he never, ever drinks espresso as he doesn't want to deaden his tastebuds for further coffees. I never drink anything but espresso as I don't want anything to spoil the taste of my first coffee.
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  45. #1895
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    Quote Originally Posted by topshot View Post
    I thought the "little people" were the ones who purchase products, who are the end users, the ones who actually keep business going by spending their hard earned on products.
    They are more important than the "coffee celebrities" in the whole scheme of things.
    Yes, of course, I agree with you, which is why I made the perhaps misunderstood joke of referring to "everybody who is not a celebrity" as "the little people".

    All in all, while it's nice to have many people at your booth, if they are just celebrity spotting and not engaging with the coffee or the machine, it's not all that useful to us.

    On the other hand, at least two "celebrities" (WBC winners) told me they were going to buy my espresso machine, and one seems to actually be doing it this week, so that's quite nice. I don't believe in giving free machines out, because I found that they then don't value it and often don't even bother using it. Plus, their endorsement is much less sincere or valuable if they received it for free.

    – John
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  46. #1896
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Did no one notice the quote marks?

    John, maybe you should change "little people" to "punters" so we Aussies can understand you.
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  47. #1897
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    I had a laugh, for such a laid-back nation we have a few irate amongst us.

  48. #1898
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    Apologies John, after some much focus in previous posts on coffee celebrities I did take it in a condescending way rather than the way you intended. Apologies.
    Last edited by 338; 18th June 2019 at 09:57 AM. Reason: autocorrect
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  49. #1899
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    Bringing discussion back on topic, has anyone seen the James Hoffman video discussing the Scott Rao high yield extractions on the Decent at Berlin?

    The use of paper filters on the top and bottom of the puck and how this affects the fluid dynamics of an extraction are very interesting. I was particularly intrigued by the way in which the filters increased flow (seemingly because fines were prevented from blocking the filter basket) and, as a consequence, how the dose and brew pressure could be decreased. I thought it all very thought provoking and well worth a look.
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  50. #1900
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    Long preinfusion, depth and age of roast

    Quote Originally Posted by Otago View Post
    Bringing discussion back on topic, has anyone seen the James Hoffman video discussing the Scott Rao high yield extractions on the Decent at Berlin?

    The use of paper filters on the top and bottom of the puck and how this affects the fluid dynamics of an extraction are very interesting. I was particularly intrigued by the way in which the filters increased flow (seemingly because fines were prevented from blocking the filter basket) and, as a consequence, how the dose and brew pressure could be decreased. I thought it all very thought provoking and well worth a look.
    G'day Otago

    I have now... Thanks for that.

    Loosely related (i.e. no filters in sight, although I will try them later) there was a lot of discussion about preinfusion time & effect + depth and age of roast.

    This is not for the dark roast or "chocolate bomb" brigade - standard espresso machines are more their bag.

    One of the "youtube" comments prompted this post of mine
    Tulio
    5 days ago
    The 'pause' after the pre-infusion is what baristas in Italy used to do in the 1960s, and got to be known as the Fellini move after appearing in one of his films. People with Pavoni Europiccolas still do this. but the paper filter is something I'd like to try.
    (reply) John Buckman
    4 days ago
    Interesting! How long a pause? On the blooming shot we are putting in about 40ml of water in at the start, then holding pressure and pausing water for 30 seconds. (end)


    I have posted a few times on CS that I used to do preinfusions of up to 40 seconds on my manual lever Electra "eagle". The lighter the roast, the more I would let it age (when it no longer smells green, use it) and the longer the preinfusion required. I learnt the preinfusion technique in 1979 from a Northern Italian gent when I did a 3 week intensive at Perth's top roaster (using their gear at the time). For crema aficionados, that means you get less (and less - the lighter the roast and the longer it needs to age) crema, however it lasts longer in the cuppa and tastes (a lot) better.

    The comment about Rao's higher extractions are also interesting. When (post eagle) I went to the combination of a Mahlkonig Vario grinder (low retention, very even particle spread), a naked portafilter and VST baskets my extraction ratio went through the roof - to the extent that I had to swap to 7g single baskets for the first time in 25+ years. Even my 15gs were way too strong to balance as a latte. The flavour whack from straight espressos also became an overwhelming "finger in the light socket" affair rather than the "hot textured honey" I prefer.

    Now I have added a DE1 to my setup. I still haven't had the time to have a real good play with it yet, so the next comment should be regarded as more a work in progress thought as I am still tinkering.

    I have pulled a number of long preinfusion / sharp pressure kick / low, slow flow shots earlier - some of which I reckon actually topped the Electra. That is how I used to get the best cuppa out of my eagle.

    Today an extreme experimental shot: I just pulled a 56.8(!)g shot out of my 7.2g VST whilst I waited (and waited, and waited) for it to blond. I cut it at exactly the blonding point and it tasted pretty good as an espresso and also well balanced as a latte after my first "curiosity sip". The coffee: light roasted Colombian about 3 weeks old, the grind was closer to coarse Turkish rather than fine espresso. It had around 30 seconds of very low water flow preinfusion, an 8 second pause, it was then set for 5 seconds at 9 bar (which it didn't quite reach) and then a "fast transition" low flow controlled (1.5 to 1.0ml slow transition) finish in two stages. The tablet graph looked awful, mainly due to the huge pressure bump and flow bump in the middle. The actual pour was the one of the closest I have yet seen to the Electra, which shows the difference between measuring inputs (even as close to the group as the DE1) and outputs. A scale would have shown nothing until after the peak and then a slow fairly even flow until I cut it at 43 seconds of actual shot time. Although this particular shot did not quite get the manual lever flavour, I am amazed at how long it took to blond and how balanced it was.

    Anyway, food for thought.

    TampIt
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