Results 1 to 30 of 30
Like Tree4Likes
  • 3 Post By roosterben
  • 1 Post By Dimal

Thread: ECM Giotto Premium Plus V2 help

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    182

    ECM Giotto Premium Plus V2 help

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Well hit paydirt on the weekend.

    A used Rocket Giotto turned up on Gumtree one suburb away for a great price. Physically it is in great condition, pretty much perfect apart from some scuffing on case from the steam wand. Turned out to be Premium Plus V2 from 2013, not sure on maintenance, owners never serviced but mentioned sister pulling it apart to do some basic maintenance. I haven't had a chance to even pull the top and sides off yet.

    Quite a big step up from the Gaggia Classic so just getting used to the machine.

    I have only had time to test with a few shots of coffee, did some basic testing before this and boiler filling nicely, getting to correct pressure after heating, steam, water and brew functions running OK. But when making the third shot noticed it has a leak from the bottom of the group.

    I will post some pics of the machine later (and the leak location) when I get some decent light in the garage after work.

    TODO list (not in any particular order);

    1. Remove the group seal/shower screen and clean
    2. Do a descale of group and boiler
    3. Do a proper backflush with some coffee cleaner
    4. Fix the group head leak, leaking from the bottom when brewing

    First issue leaking from the group (4 above). When I brewed the last shot there is water leaking from the group into the glass, I would say 15-20ml of water leaked from the bottom of the group into the glass. I have some basic experience mainly on single boiler machines like replacing group seals, steam valves and changing steam wands.

    Can I have some help on the likely issue and parts likely required to resolve the group leak?

    I think based on my reading it might be the relief valve but not sure if it is just maybe an o-ring or in the valve needs to be replaced?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    128
    A 2nd hand machine that hadn’t been serviced in 5 years. Might be wise to take it in to a qualified tech to give it a good once over.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    182
    Yeah you may be right there, it would definitely shorten the time to get good coffee from the machine :-)

    If I fix it, it will take some time especially if I have to order/find any parts.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    613
    The Giotto is an E61 machine, yes?

    It is a fairly easy job to strip and refurbish an E61 grouphead. Took me about 2 hours at the first attempt (I was being super careful).

    Plenty of how to info online.

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    19
    what was the great price ?

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    182
    Memphis, I picked it up for $700 which I think is a steal considering age and condition ... BTW your for sale ad is in the wrong section, should be in Hardware for Sale

    Really embarrassed to say but the leak was not from the group end (drain valve), it was the group head seal. Not sure how I got myself so confused and asked such a dumb question (and spent a few hours reading about pulling apart group).

    I tested with the blind filter and water was leaking around the main group seal. So I removed the seal and shower screen. The shower screen back was gummed up with coffee grains and oils. Once I scrubbed the the shower screen and socked in coffee cleaner for an hour or so it was perfectly clean. Group seal was as hard a rock so I binned it, before having a thought my Gaggia seal might fit, so I grabbed the old Giotto one back from the bin and as luck would have it, identical size to the Gaggia. I slipped Gaggia one over the shower screen assembly and put it back in the machine (after giving the internals above the shower screen a quick scrub with a cloth and plastic brush). I tested again with blind filter and leak was fixed and holding pressure nicely, happy days!

    Spent the next hour doing chemical backflushes and man pretty sure it has never has a chemical backflush. Took 20-30 backflushes (10 secs on/10 secs off) before and a few teaspoons of Cafetto before the water started running clear. Couldn't believe how much grains and oils came out. Then flushed with just water to clear out the cleaner 5-10 times.

    I made a couple of crappy shots with coffee to clear the group and remove any last cleaner hopefully but they were rough as I haven't had a chance to dial in the grind.

    Pretty stoked now as I think it is fully functioning machine. I didn't get to take any decent pics as I forgot but will try tomorrow. Sorry about the stupid question.

    Tomorrow I will try and dial in to make my first decent coffee.

    What are peoples thoughts on descaling a roughly 4 year old machine? Would you only do if necessary? my roaster who services machines doesn't think it should be required.
    arcachon, DaveD and memphis like this.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    West Footscray, Melbourne
    Posts
    212
    I think a good indicator of scale build up is to check the mushroom. You can make a decision from there once you see how clean/dirty it is

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    128
    Reckon there are quite a lot of machines out there like this. People buy new then just run them without ever cleaning or servicing, then simply stop using them when the coffee starts coming out ordinary. A bit of effort on your part and you now have bargain of the century.

  9. #9
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    1,006
    $700 is a bargain. Usual issues would be the group head seal as you've discovered. Potentially a weak pump. Next will be checking for scale build up and just spending a few hours descaling. What grinder are you using? Enjoy the new toy!

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    182
    DaveD - thanks will checkout the mushroom valve

    saoye - I am using a Breville BCG 800.

    I think I need some shims if Breville are still doing them, I just made a morning coffee with a good extraction from the Giotto but I am 1-2 clicks from the finest setting so not much room left to play with. This setting will choke the Gaggia Classic if tamped too hard or overdosed but OK for the Giotto, made a double shot ran with decent colour for 25 seconds and maybe 35 ml shot as a guess. Might be on the ristretto end of things but I didn't weigh the coffee. I used to stack in the Gaggia basket 22-23 grams of coffee, but I think it was prob more like 18-19 grams. Will make another coffee tonight and weigh the coffee and shot.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by roosterben View Post
    What are peoples thoughts on descaling a roughly 4 year old machine? Would you only do if necessary? my roaster who services machines doesn't think it should be required.
    Depends on what water was used. A while back I opened the boiler on my machine and found, after about 7 years of use with unfiltered Melbourne water, there was virtually no scale build up.
    This was on a single boiler.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    128
    Quote Originally Posted by roosterben View Post
    DaveD - thanks will checkout the mushroom valve

    saoye - I am using a Breville BCG 800.

    I think I need some shims if Breville are still doing them, I just made a morning coffee with a good extraction from the Giotto but I am 1-2 clicks from the finest setting so not much room left to play with. This setting will choke the Gaggia Classic if tamped too hard or overdosed but OK for the Giotto, made a double shot ran with decent colour for 25 seconds and maybe 35 ml shot as a guess. Might be on the ristretto end of things but I didn't weigh the coffee. I used to stack in the Gaggia basket 22-23 grams of coffee, but I think it was prob more like 18-19 grams. Will make another coffee tonight and weigh the coffee and shot.
    What is the brew pressure gauge reading when you draw a shot?

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    182
    Pretty sure it was in the green zone 8-9 bar the whole shot (apart from the pre-infusion) so I can't be too far off the mark with grind setting. Although depends how big the steps are on the Breville.

    I will take a shot video tonight if I get a chance, so I can time and also watch the gauges on playback.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    128
    You can check the brew pressure using a blind filter. If it’s measuring pressure from the pump it will ideally be around 10 bar which I believe translates to around 9 bar at the group head.

    I think you can adjust pressure on that model Giotto by turning a screw underneath the machine. Let’s you easily play around till you get it exactly where you want.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    182
    OK assuming the video embed works here is a shot video from this morning, one of the better coffees I have ever made at home. Shot ran for 30 seconds (not counting the 5 second pre-infusion), tasted bloody delicious. Didn't have time to weigh coffee or shot. Using some Single O reservoir blend beans.



    If not here is a URL;
    https://youtu.be/9w7g9_2Ij2M
    Last edited by roosterben; 1st August 2018 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Changed to YouTube vid

  16. #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    3
    Wow it's a bargain for $700.

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Perth, WA
    Posts
    52
    Group head is easy to rebuild, it's probably the seals in the exhaust that are shot.

    I've stripped my Rocket completely and recently did full de-scale (while disassembled) Put the lot in a bucket of de-scaler overnight. While it wasn't bad, it did look cleaner the next day.

    Coffee parts has most of the bits you need. There's not much to the machines really - a few bolts and pipes. Take pictures as you pull it apart and clean it - that way you can remember how to put it back together again.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    35
    I have water leaking from the lever assembly during extraction, any ideas which seal is leaking in the lever assembly or is this another problem?

  19. #19
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    613


    Items 26 are the shaft seals for the lever.

    Items 27 to 29 serve to compress the seals axially. Since rubber is virtually incomrpressible, the axial compression results in radial extension which forces the seal against the shaft.
    Last edited by Lyrebird; 24th September 2018 at 07:58 PM.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    35
    So the seals are the problem Lyrebird? This was suggested to me by a technician so I have purchased two new seals to install as well as some other wearable parts to service the machine.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    613
    I can't confirm that without pulling your machine apart.

    You asked which seals would create that problem.
    Last edited by Lyrebird; 26th September 2018 at 05:38 PM.

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    35
    I'm gathering it is the number 26 seals from your diagram in the lever assembly, that's what I bought.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    305
    As it hasn't been mentioned in this thread ....be aware that it is well advised to use an appropriate amount of food grade silicon lube on seals, valves and moving parts within the E61 grouphead when servicing.
    GL
    Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 27th September 2018 at 10:03 AM.

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    35
    Thanks Espresso, I read on another E61 thread to use lube on the seals and some of the moving parts, but very sparingly. I'm going to grab some from Bunnings.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    fairly static
    Posts
    197
    Make sure it is food grade. A good place to be sure of that is a dive or plumbing shop, although it is available even at auto shops if you are careful it is definitely pure.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    613
    I posted this before but it got lost: Hayne's Lubrifilm plus is the bee's knees for this application and is easily found in your local home brew shop for about $5 a tube.

  27. #27
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,198
    Has been discussed many times over the years, eg this thread...
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...r-machine.html

    Mal.
    Yelta likes this.

  28. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    35
    I did a Google search for it and Bunnings sell the lube used on tap gaskets etc which they say is food grade.

  29. #29
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    35
    I think I will just get some Inox though, jaycar are easy to get to.

  30. #30
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Bathurst
    Posts
    1,178
    I prefer Molykote 111 for E61 seal lubrication as well as lever group seals. Pretty much if the seal is subject to hot water and pressure then I use it. If you have a Blackwoods close by they sell it in 100g tubes.

    Inox lube is ok for tap threads and other low pressure/low stress situations but I never found it to last very well in E61 cams.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •