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Thread: Cheapest E61 group single boiler espresso machine to buy in Australia? Advice needed

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    Question Cheapest E61 group single boiler espresso machine to buy in Australia? Advice needed

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Dear Coffee snobs
    I am planning to buy E61 group single boiler espresso machine with or without PID. I spent some days to investigate what espresso machine I should buy for substantial improvement of my espresso. Looks that cheapest E61 single boiler machine is better than any not E61.
    Could you, please, suggest any E61 single boiler cheaper that I listed below. (I am drinking only black espresso 1-3 cups every day in the morning)
    Isomac Zaffiro Due A$ 1,771.00 (no PID)
    VBM Domobar Piccolo A$ 1,649.00 (no PID)
    ECM Manufacture Classika PID A$1,949.00
    Thank you very much in advance for your great help.
    With regards Alex

  2. #2
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Dear Coffee snobs
    I am planning to buy E61 group single boiler espresso machine with or without PID. I spent some days to investigate what espresso machine I should buy for substantial improvement of my espresso. Looks that cheapest E61 single boiler machine is better than any not E61.
    Could you, please, suggest any E61 single boiler cheaper that I listed below. (I am drinking only black espresso 1-3 cups every day in the morning)
    Isomac Zaffiro Due A$ 1,771.00 (no PID)
    VBM Domobar Piccolo A$ 1,649.00 (no PID)
    ECM Manufacture Classika PID A$1,949.00
    Thank you very much in advance for your great help.
    With regards Alex
    I'm not sure that it's the E-61 v non-E61 that defines the difference ......it's more about build quality. The E-61 distinction is (strongly) correlated with build quality, though so you won't go too far wrong with those choices.

    If you're drinking straight shots and are mainly concerned with quality of the shot.....have you considered a manual lever like the Espresso Flair? Not for everyone but pulls fantastic shots.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    If you're going single boiler then stick with the ECM Classika PID. For the little extra you pay, the PID will give you the ability to control temperature at a level needed to fine tune your espresso shots. Much like an ECM Dual boiler without the Steam boiler. You can still steam with the Classika, just not at the same time as brewing. ECM build quality is above the other 2 also. An E61 grouphead has mechanical pre-infusion built in by default (Pre-infusion valve actuated by set pump pressure against valve spring).

    I'll probably go down the road of a Classika PID when my VBM Piccolo/Levetta dies or collapses into a pile of rust (pre stainless frame and cover version). I'm in the process of fitting up a PID due to the thermostat deadband issue as standard and even with a grouphead thermometer, the effort required in keeping a tighter control on temperature fluctuations is growing old.

    P.S. Didn't think of it at the time but seems to be quite a timely query with a new shipment of Classika PIDs hitting the stores in the next week or 2.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 3rd May 2019 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Added P.S.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    ilichev, check your inbox for PM.

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    Dear CafeLotta, Thank you for the private message. I replied to you. By the way I Just was informed that VBM Piccolo was discontinued (or something like that) and no longer available for import to Australia. May be you will think twice about PID investment.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I own a Isomac Zaffiro (10+ years old) and it's an excellent shot machine.

    Single boiler (so you have to switch between steam and shots) and you get the big heavy "commercial" brass E61 head which makes the back to back shots pretty stable.

    These single boiler, non-heat exchanger machines really suck for milk drinks. Do your shot, flick over to steam and wait for it to get up to temperature before steaming your milk and then pouring it on your now cold shot but if you are just doing espresso they are great value and about half the price of a similar E61 heat-exchange machine.

    We have used this at events (school fete's / sports days etc) to pull great shots back to back for hours on end and used another machine for steam.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Have to say the Bezzera Domus Galatea is a single boiler HX machine that has no problem extracting and frothing at the same time.

    Difficult to bypass at the price.
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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    ...the Zaffiro ($1500 odd from a couple of our site sponsors) is about half the price of the Bezzera Yelta, the original question was "Cheapest E61 group single boiler", not great.

    ilichev - don't forget to use the [quote form] when you decide what you want as it will email all the site sponsors at once.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    single boiler HX machine
    Alrighty then
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    ...the Zaffiro ($1500 odd from a couple of our site sponsors) is about half the price of the Bezzera Yelta, the original question was "Cheapest E61 group single boiler", not great.

    ilichev - don't forget to use the [quote form] when you decide what you want as it will email all the site sponsors at once.
    Fair enough.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Dear CafeLotta, Thank you for the private message. I replied to you. By the way I Just was informed that VBM Piccolo was discontinued (or something like that) and no longer available for import to Australia. May be you will think twice about PID investment.
    Vibiemme parts will be available for a very long time so looking at a PID upgrade on an existing machine is not an issue. As I mentioned in the PM, my PID parts have already been procured. Seems interesting that you would mention thinking twice about PID investment here. Maybe all is not what it seems. As I said previously, new shipment of ECM is imminent so can't help but wonder......

    Here's a review of the Isomac Zaffiro - CoffeeGeek - Isomac Zaffiro - Operation and Maintenance
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 4th May 2019 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Correction
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    Dear Andy and others, Thank you very much for reply. Waiting for advice I did my own research and found Quick Mill Carola Evo, made in Italy, E61 with PID, single boiler (no steam at all), brass boiler with TEA treatment at Coffee-A-Roma in Melbourne. Was very surprised that no one suggested this great E61 espresso only machine. This is exactly what I want. Is anybody had or have this machine. I would like to hear owners experience using this machine.
    Thank you very much for reply.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Nice tidy looking machine Ilichev at a very good price, was not even aware of its existence.
    https://www.coffee-a-roma.com.au/sto...e_Machine.html

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Dear Andy and others, Thank you very much for reply. Waiting for advice I did my own research and found Quick Mill Carola Evo, made in Italy, E61 with PID, single boiler (no steam at all), brass boiler with TEA treatment at Coffee-A-Roma in Melbourne. Was very surprised that no one suggested this great E61 espresso only machine. This is exactly what I want. Is anybody had or have this machine. I would like to hear owners experience using this machine.
    Thank you very much for reply.
    Can't speak for the Carola, but I do own a different Quick Mill (Achille) and they are very solidly put together. The 750ml boiler seems a little undersized, but I guess if you're only pulling shots it might work just fine, particularly as the PID probably sorts that out. I guess one reason that nobody suggested the machine is a lack of familiarity with it, and the fact that most people would like the option to occasionally steam some milk.
    Last edited by Barry O'Speedwagon; 6th May 2019 at 06:06 PM.

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Don't know about the exposed PCB next to the pump as shown in the photos in this review -
    https://www.home-barista.com/espress...os-t56130.html

    If I read it correctly sounds like PID adjustment is by dip switches on this exposed board with no readout to know what temp you're at.


    QMCarola.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Dear Andy and others, Thank you very much for reply. Waiting for advice I did my own research and found Quick Mill Carola Evo, made in Italy, E61 with PID, single boiler (no steam at all), brass boiler with TEA treatment at Coffee-A-Roma in Melbourne. Was very surprised that no one suggested this great E61 espresso only machine. This is exactly what I want. Is anybody had or have this machine. I would like to hear owners experience using this machine.
    Thank you very much for reply.
    For $51 extra you can get the :Quick Mill Silvano Evo Coffee Machine

    A$1,450.00
    What am I missing, surely the capacity to steam has got to be worth $51 even if you only use it when you have visitors?
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    Expobar office. you wont need to flip a switch for steam. $1750
    https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/shop/p/expobar-office-semi-auto/

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    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    found Quick Mill Carola Evo, made in Italy, E61 with PID
    Does it have a PID? All I can see is the Gicar Termosteco board. Gicar themselves do not call this a PID and from the components visible it looks like a simple on / off temperature controller. Can't see how you could tune a PID with an octal dip switch.
    Last edited by Lyrebird; 6th May 2019 at 09:18 PM.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Does it have a PID? All I can see is the Gicar Termosteco board. Gicar themselves do not call this a PID and from the components visible it looks like a simple on / off temperature controller. Can't see how you could tune a PID with an octal dip switch.
    The owners manual in the link shows the dip switch positions for different temps on Page 9 -

    http://chriscoffee.com/v/vspfiles/ma...ola_manual.pdf

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    Agree with Lb though - Don't believe it's using a PID Controller...

    Mal.

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    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    The owners manual in the link shows the dip switch positions for different temps on Page 9 -

    http://chriscoffee.com/v/vspfiles/ma...ola_manual.pdf
    Evidently standard binary code with DP1 as least significant bit.

    The algorithm is temperature in Farenheit = 141 + 2 x code though I suspect that's a fudged conversion from temperature in Celsius = 64 + code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Dear Coffee snobs
    I am planning to buy E61 group single boiler espresso machine with or without PID. I spent some days to investigate what espresso machine I should buy for substantial improvement of my espresso. Looks that cheapest E61 single boiler machine is better than any not E61.
    Not necessarily. The E61 gives you pre-infusion and thermal mass but the rest of the machine will determine how temperature stable it is. If you do go an E61 single boiler, get the machine setup properly before you pick it up. Most of them have an adjustable thermostat and if the shop has a Scace it's pretty straight forward to dial it in. On the other hand, a 58mm single boiler with PID will be ready for action and also gives you more scope for playing with temperature. eg Lelit Victoria

    charlie
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    Dear Yelta, This is great machine for a very affordable price for coffee lovers who only need espresso. To buy froth or milk frothing machine is very easy, cheap and everywhere. By the way Quick Mill making pigeon pair of milk froth machine for this espresso (see Italian website of Quick Mill).

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Unless theyíve improved dramatically Iíd avoid Quickmill. I had a look inside an Andrea one time a couple of years ago as I was thinking of buying it. It was the worst built machine of this type Iíd seen. Many of the parts were fine as they come from the Isomac factory, but it was poorly designed and put together. It was like a birds nest of wires and was a bit scary to be honest.

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    Quick Mill Carola EVO (0960) new version 2019

    Dear Coffee snobs and Charlie from JetBlack, Thank you very much for comments. So far nobody had or have this exact machine. This is strange. I will try to reply to all remarks:
    750ml brass single boiler with TEA treatment is OK for me when I usually make 1-2 espresso in the morning; Charlie is right: E61 gives pre-infusion and Temperature is already set up OK, manual PID inside calibrated to first crack, but I did not play with it yet. Most of comments was made about old version of Carola 0960 (like CoffeLatte did). New version has internal PID (sorry, try to upload file, but can not, may be too big 6MB?). Anyway, if anybody interested I could e-mail this file with all detailed pictures and descriptions as attachment. The attachment on this web site does not work with docx files?).

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    CafeLotta, Thank you for the post. It looks you got it from USA site and Carola is an old version, but looks very similar to mine. I understood that PID is in the next picture below this in that US post and had single switches- https://www.home-barista.com/forums/...x/34840_14.jpg
    I was told that temperature is already factory set and tested. I do not need to play with it. I could adjust pressure and temperature in this machine. Should I wish more adjustments?

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    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Unless they’ve improved dramatically I’d avoid Quickmill.
    I reckon I'd avoid them simply because they don't seem to know what a PID is.

    I found a better pic of the board, I am sure it's a simple on/off temperature controller eg an electronic thermostat. Obviously you can't use a pressurestat on a machine that doesn't steam.
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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    CafeLotta, Thank you for the post. It looks you got it from USA site and Carola is an old version, but looks very similar to mine. I understood that PID is in the next picture below this in that US post and had single switches- https://www.home-barista.com/forums/...x/34840_14.jpg
    I was told that temperature is already factory set and tested. I do not need to play with it. I could adjust pressure and temperature in this machine. Should I wish more adjustments?

    Why not quote the people that you are replying to...like I'm doing here?
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    I reckon I'd avoid them simply because they don't seem to know what a PID is.

    I found a better pic of the board, I am sure it's a simple on/off temperature controller eg an electronic thermostat. Obviously you can't use a pressurestat on a machine that doesn't steam.
    Yeah thereís so many better options. Hereís a few for the OP:
    - Lelit (Kate or equivalent)
    - NS Oscar II
    - CIME
    - ACM Alfi
    or of course the ECM already mentioned.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Dear Coffee snobs and Charlie from JetBlack, Thank you very much for comments. So far nobody had or have this exact machine. This is strange.
    Maybe there's a message there?

    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    750ml brass single boiler with TEA treatment...............
    Hadn't heard of this before so looked it up and added link in case anyone else was curious.......https://www.home-barista.com/espress...ly-t39799.html
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    TEA certainly sounds like a worthwhile thing to do alright...

    Mal.
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    Is a Silvia technically an e61?

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davltay View Post
    Is a Silvia technically an e61?
    Morning davltay.

    No the Silvia is not an E61.

    The pics below are an E61, and a Silvia group, as you can see the E61 is nothing like the Silvia brass group head.
    E61 group.jpegSilvia group head..jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Junior Member davltay's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info, I often see people saying itís e61 but they are wrong or misinformed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by davltay View Post
    Thanks for the info, I often see people saying itís e61 but they are wrong or misinformed!
    Correctamundo.
    Correctamundo..jpg
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davltay View Post
    Thanks for the info, I often see people saying it’s e61 but they are wrong or misinformed!
    The thing they have in common is a 58mm portafilter basket size. Any 58mm speciality filter baskets like VST and tampers you might buy for a Silvia
    will fit E61 portafilters so can be used on an upgrade machine in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    ...the Zaffiro ($1500 odd from a couple of our site sponsors) is about half the price of the Bezzera Yelta, the original question was "Cheapest E61 group single boiler", not great.

    ilichev - don't forget to use the [quote form] when you decide what you want as it will email all the site sponsors at once.
    Found a review with internal pictures of the Zaffiro. It uses a capillary bulb thermostat similar to the later model Vibiemme Piccolo so if you were ever that way inclined, a PID mod can be done by removing the thermostat bulb from the top of the boiler and mounting an appropriate sensor for a PID. May look at doing this with a Zaffiro myself in the future and save some money instead of buying a ECM Classika PID. Sounds like a very capable machine as is though and good value. Also offers a good platform for those that like to tinker.

    Capillary Bulb thermostat (Capillary tubing inside red insulation). Probe bulb inserted through top of boiler and has direct contact with water (No thermowell so has increased sensitivity).

    ZaffiroThermostat1.jpg ZaffiroThermostat2.jpg


    https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/I...oserlookv5.pdf
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 15th May 2019 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Added Isomac Zaffiro link

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    The thing they have in common is a 58mm portafilter basket size. Any 58mm speciality filter baskets like VST and tampers you might buy for a Silvia
    will fit E61 portafilters so can be used on an upgrade machine in the future.



    Found a review with internal pictures of the Zaffiro. It uses a capillary bulb thermostat similar to the later model Vibiemme Piccolo so if you were ever that way inclined, a PID mod can be done by removing the thermostat bulb from the top of the boiler and mounting an appropriate sensor for a PID. May look at doing this with a Zaffiro myself in the future and save some money instead of buying a ECM Classika PID. Sounds like a very capable machine as is though and good value. Also offers a good platform for those that like to tinker.

    Capillary Bulb thermostat (Capillary tubing inside red insulation). Probe bulb inserted through top of boiler and has direct contact with water (No thermowell so has increased sensitivity).

    ZaffiroThermostat1.jpg ZaffiroThermostat2.jpg


    https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/I...oserlookv5.pdf
    Thank you for the reply and indirect answer to my question about E61 espresso machine. Indeed ECM Classika PID is the cheapest and the best machine in the single boiler category. Many dealers are very confident in this machine and happy to provide very positive reviews.

  38. #38
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilichev View Post
    Thank you for the reply and indirect answer to my question about E61 espresso machine. Indeed ECM Classika PID is the cheapest and the best machine in the single boiler category. Many dealers are very confident in this machine and happy to provide very positive reviews.
    The Isomac Zaffiro is the cheapest in the E61 single boiler category and is available nearly $500 cheaper (I've seen it as low as $1426), than the ECM Classika PID. Andy has given a positive opinion of the Zaffiro earlier in this thread.

    Your comment "Many dealers are very confident in this machine and happy to provide very positive reviews" sounds more like someone that has a vested interest in publicising this machine rather than someone looking to buy one. As I said earlier in the thread, the timing of your posts coincides with a new shipment of these machines so people can make of this what they will.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    As I said earlier in the thread, the timing of your posts coincides with a new shipment of these machines so people can make of this what they will.
    I wonder what we should make of this?

    Dons foil beanie, with ear flaps.
    Last edited by Yelta; 18th May 2019 at 11:11 AM.
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  40. #40
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    Illchev, I can tell you the Classika isn't the choice of the really thrifty. If cost is your primary factor in purchasing try the Aldi pod machine for $79. Or if you are really cost concious get an aeropress https://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/V...s-coffee-maker for $29 I use the aerpress and recommend it
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  41. #41
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    The Isomac Zaffiro is the cheapest in the E61 single boiler category and is available nearly $500 cheaper (I've seen it as low as $1426), than the ECM Classika PID. Andy has given a positive opinion of the Zaffiro earlier in this thread.

    Your comment "Many dealers are very confident in this machine and happy to provide very positive reviews" sounds more like someone that has a vested interest in publicising this machine rather than someone looking to buy one. As I said earlier in the thread, the timing of your posts coincides with a new shipment of these machines so people can make of this what they will.

    Absolutely, I was going to respond to one of the earlier posts (#25) by asking 'are you trying to buy one of these or sell them?'. Pretty shameless stuff.
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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I wonder what we should make of this

    Dons foil beanie, with ear flaps.
    Why take any chances. Go for full coverage like this example. My preferred option.

    FullCoverage.jpg
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Why take any chances. Go for full coverage like this example. My preferred option.
    Like it CL, why take chances indeed, this option gives almost complete protection.

    Tinfoil.jpg
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    I'm happy to confirm that Alex is, in fact, the happy new owner of an ECM Classika PID. Foil beanies can be removed

    charlie
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
    I'm happy to confirm that Alex is, in fact, the happy new owner of an ECM Classika PID. Foil beanies can be removed

    charlie
    That's a relief!

    Well done Alex (Ilichev?) keep us informed as to your experience with the new machine.
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    Phew!
    Thank goodness; the constant crinkly, crackly sound of the Alfoil was starting to get to me...

    Mal.
    Andy, Yelta, CafeLotta and 2 others like this.

  47. #47
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,616
    Why not contact Charlie direct?
    A forum is NOT the place to start thrashing out deals...

    Mal.
    Casa Espresso and CafeLotta like this.

  48. #48
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Sunshine Coast QLD
    Posts
    55
    Why does anonymity bring out the worst in some people?

    A little civility doesn't cost anything and goes a lot further than name calling.

    Cheers.

  49. #49
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic, Aust.
    Posts
    987
    Quote Originally Posted by JetBlack_Espresso View Post
    .................Foil beanies can be removed

    charlie
    Mine's staying on.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by SanderP View Post
    Why does anonymity bring out the worst in some people?

    A little civility doesn't cost anything and goes a lot further than name calling.

    Cheers.
    Far from anonymous, those of us who have been around for a while knew exactly who reefkitchards was.
    Dimal, CafeLotta and SanderP like this.



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