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Thread: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

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    Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I suppose this applies to HX in general, E61 or not. Ive been doing a bit of research and reading about HX machines and especially E61 which claims to have better temp stability. Having had the silvia for a while without a PID, temp surfing to get the right brew temp was a bit hit and miss. Then I got a PID which was great for brew temp but also for steaming milk because I know excatly when to start steaming... Now, considering going to HX (seems like a natural progression of things), the actual theory behind HX and E61 HX is a bit clearer than before after a lot of reading. Basically, the boiler maintains a fixed pressure (set by pressurestat setting) which makes steam always available and for brewing, a separate line goes through the boiler to "flash heat" the cold water pumped from the tank. The heated water then goes to the group head and cools down the process but if unused, sort of goes in a loop through the boiler.
    From discussions, if left idle, the brew line gets too hot which then requires cooling flushes. However, if too much is flushed, the brew water then becomes too cold.
    Thinking about this, it sounds like brew temps are a bit hit and miss as well... Wont the ambient temp affect the brew temp outcome as well in one way or the other? So, how does one work out how much to flush or how long to let sit after a flush or after pulling a shot for the temp to get up to the ideal brew temp? It just sounds like another temp surfing exercise is required to work this out... My theory on the workings of HX machines is rather simplistic, is there something else Im missing in this theory which might debunk some of these concerns?

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1216260897/0#0 date=1216260897
    I suppose this applies to HX in general, E61 or not. Ive been doing a bit of research and reading about HX machines and especially E61 which claims to have better temp stability. Having had the silvia for a while without a PID, temp surfing to get the right brew temp was a bit hit and miss. Then I got a PID which was great for brew temp but also for steaming milk because I know excatly when to start steaming... Now, considering going to HX (seems like a natural progression of things), the actual theory behind HX and E61 HX is a bit clearer than before after a lot of reading. Basically, the boiler maintains a fixed pressure (set by pressurestat setting) which makes steam always available and for brewing, a separate line goes through the boiler to "flash heat" the cold water pumped from the tank. The heated water then goes to the group head and cools down the process but if unused, sort of goes in a loop through the boiler.
    From discussions, if left idle, the brew line gets too hot which then requires cooling flushes. However, if too much is flushed, the brew water then becomes too cold.
    Thinking about this, it sounds like brew temps are a bit hit and miss as well... Wont the ambient temp affect the brew temp outcome as well in one way or the other? So, how does one work out how much to flush or how long to let sit after a flush or after pulling a shot for the temp to get up to the ideal brew temp? It just sounds like another temp surfing exercise is required to work this out... My theory on the workings of HX machines is rather simplistic, is there something else Im missing in this theory which might debunk some of these concerns?

    All good research NTE....One thing to keep in mind with e-61 over a Silvia for example is that 4.5kg of brass in the group is more temp. stable than say a Silvia group...This implies a slower change in temperature...

    The well built HX machines are inherently temp stable. If manufacturers botch, omit or shortcut the R&D stage though, you can get a cranky, hot machine which is way more challenging to work with.

    This is where good advice and/or a road test come into play ;)

    regards

    Chris

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    I suppose its not the temp stability that Im wondering about. There seems nothing in the group head (E61) to regulate the temp such that it holds steady at 93 degrees. The heat mainly comes from the boiler which is set to very high for steam production and unlike a PID on the silvia, which regulates the boiler temp, the temp at the group doesnt seem to be regulated. Say, switching on the machine in the morning when the room temp is 15 degrees, the whole chunk of brass would be at that temp at the start. As the boiler starts creating steam and building up in temp, everything else heats up with it. So say after 30 minutes the head gets up to 93 degrees, what keeps the temp at that level and not continue climbing after say, 45 minutes or an hour?
    Also, looking at the schematic diagrams of the E61 heads, what is the purpose of that single allen screw on the "nose"?

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    The temperature a group head stabilises at is determined by thermodynamics.... a black science I, and most others, know little about.....

    Its all to do with thermal transfer, thermal resistance, in the case of an E61 the *water flow through the group.... yada... yada.... yada. And it doesnt matter what type of group you have E61 or one like my La Cimbali.... and many other designs..... due to the fact some very clever people with an understanding of this "black magic" have designed it properly.... it will work and work very well.....

    So with the smaller single boiler machines a "brute force" technique is used (becoming very effective when a PID is installed) but prosumer and commercial machines use science and engineering to provide results as good as (arguably better than) can be obtained from a PID controlled system.....

    Dont worry why..... just sit back and savour the results..... and if you want to - be amazed how some clever buggers (or number of them).... could make it work so well!!

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    The most common thing I hear from clients that upgraded from a Silvia to one of our Diadema Junior Plus E61 semi commercial espresso machines, is how much easier they are to operate in toto *than the Silvia. They cant be compared.

    And after that, an E61 machine is not an E61 machine.............each manufacturer puts their own philosophy behind the machine they build around E61 technology.

    My own Junior Pluss are speced up on the production line to give a certain result that I want.
    In these circles its called a "signature specification". As a roaster, the last thing I want is to import a machine that wildly fluctuates in its parameters, with the possibility of adversely affecting my own fresh roasted product.

    So to the equation above where I mentioned that an E61 is not an E61 but a product of the manufacturers philposophy, you can add that it is also affected by the philosphy and or expertise of the importer.

    Machines that require endless cooling flushes may be ok in the Italian situation, but they are not necessarily good for this market and if you look at just this parameter, you will note that all E61 machines are not the same.

    Due to all the above, *take care not to be influenced too much by "specifications" and endless academic discussions about them. *They dont by themselves make a good coffee machine. A good coffee machine can only be judged on its own merits and performance, and that is why in the end you need to choose carefully in conjunction with advice from the trader of your choice, and with thoughtful demonstration.

    Give me a hoy if you need a hand.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    aka FC
    first / original CS sponsor.


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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1216260897/0#2 date=1216270935
    Also, looking at the schematic diagrams of the E61 heads, what is the purpose of that single allen screw on the "nose"?
    No one seems to have answered this one so here goes:

    Look at this diagram http://www.home-barista.com/forums/e...lies-t724.html

    As you can see in the colour one the alan bolt is ontop of a hole going down to the cam where the water flows through.

    Simple answer is that since the E61 head is machined the only way to create this hole is to drill from the top. The alan head bolt is just there to fill up the hole afterwards.

    At least thats how i have always believed it. Apparently it makes a great place to screw in a thermostat if you want to monitor brew temps!


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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1216260897/0#2 date=1216270935
    *snip* Also, looking at the schematic diagrams of the E61 heads, what is the purpose of that single allen screw on the "nose"?
    As anthonyd said, its a blank-off screw for the drilling into the cam chamber and an ideal place to fit this....

    http://users.rcn.com/erics/DigThermAdptr.pdf * *

    The fact of the matter is that ambient temp, time between flushes, warmup time and pressurestat setting all have a bearing on how long the cooling flush should be, if one is aiming at a particular brew temp. * At least thats the conclusion I have drawn from observations of Erics thermometer and adaptor over the last three months. * *Remember though, with experience, a lot of HX owners can get it spot-on, if not very close to the brew temp they require. * Theres no substitute for experience ..... unless you have a thermometer! * *;) * * *Its whats in the cup that counts.


    b4b.

    *edit....tripped over tongue.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    I have used Erics Digital temp read out since first getting my VBM Super. I dont know much about it but thought it sounded like a good way to get repeatable temperatures. I had a mate round the other day and pulled a double shot ristretto with a 7 day old SO at 93 deg, and he commented it was a little bright. I thought this seemed strange as I had not noticed this at CS9, so I flushed to 90.5 and pulled another. He said it was magic and a much better shot in his opinion and to his taste preference, more choc notes etc.
    My point is knowing the temp (albeit just a number at a certian point) is very valuable in shot adjustment and flavour changes IMO anyway.

    Cheers CB ;)

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    93 deg generally is too hot for the types of blends we like to use in this market. The machine is most probably set up as per Italian market where they use more dense, heavier bodied coffees in their blends that can stand or need a brew temp at the higher end of the range suitable for espresso, for a shorter pour.

    For some SOs, 93 degrees.....is even worse.

    Thus the need on many machines, here, for a lengthy cooling flush.


    Regardz,
    Attilio.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    So, how would you tell by taste if a shot is too hot? My guess would be if its too cold it would be sour and too hot bitter? The point I find a little confusing is according to Chriss "guide to E61 brewing", if a shot is sour, then the grind is too coarse. So, if I happen to get a shot that is sour, does that mean the grind is too coarse or the temp is too low?

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1216260897/0#9 date=1216286881
    So, how would you tell by taste if a shot is too hot? My guess would be if its too cold it would be sour and too hot bitter? The point I find a little confusing is according to Chriss "guide to E61 brewing", if a shot is sour, then the grind is too coarse. So, if I happen to get a shot that is sour, does that mean the grind is too coarse or the temp is too low?
    Can be either NTE- or neither and chanelled or a host of other things....Some of which I probably havent even considered! ;)

    Chris

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    NTE...do you have a slab of worm tins youre trying to open all in one go?

    Since I offer SOs exclusively, Ive found with my HX machine that I prettymuch have to flush the entire duration Im grinding/dosing/tamping to achieve a good end result. I also roast fairly light, as I want SO characteristics to dominate.

    Its fine to be interested in the intricacies of coffee machines, but in all fairness, most manufacturers have a team of people across multiple disciplines. You might have left this world by the time you get that many uni degrees. Best to leave it to the experts. Just be flexible and find a routine that works best.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    In a nutshell NTE....

    You need not have "brew temp uncertainties on HX E61" machines. They were and still are one of the best things since sliced bread.

    You need only make sure that when you buy, you note during the demonstration just how long the operator needs to run any cooling flush for. Particularly if the machine has been left standing "idle" for 5 minutes or so.

    It is my considered opinion that if at that point, any **more than*** a coffee cup full of water needs to be purged from the group before it cools to a nice soft flow (instead of a gushing, steamy, gurgling flow), than it is set up to run too hot for our market. Then you might consider looking at another brand / model E61 machine that behaves in a nicer fashion.

    Its not to do with whether it is an E61 HX machine or not....its to do with initial set up during manufacture.

    I hate machines that burn my coffee (and hence why I spec my own imports up a certain way to my signature spec for best use in the home situation).

    Choose well.

    The you can worry about quality of beans VS grind Vs dose VS tamp to suit the beans and your machine and whether the shots are great, or sour or whatever.....

    I guess this from my own point of view still means, dont get too hung up on academic discussion of tech specs....let the equipment demonstrate itself to you in the way that it works in toto.


    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    NTE, correct me if Im wrong, but earlier were you asking about whether a long cooling flush would empty the superheated water in the HX and fill it with cool water, and therefore produce a cooler temp at the grouphead?
    I guess the way I look at it is that its like one of those instantanious boiling water things (Zipp, I think), so, in moderation, because of the geniusness of the HX in combo with the E61 youll always have hot water coming out even if cool water is entering.... then its basically the same with a dual boiler (but... here comes the worms).

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    FC has hit the nail squarely on the head! *:)


    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1216260897/0#12 date=1216338591
    *snip* It is my considered opinion that if at that point, any **more than*** a coffee cup full of water needs to be purged from the group before it cools to a nice soft flow (instead of a gushing, steamy, gurgling flow), than it is set up to run too hot for our market. Then you might consider looking at another brand / model E61 machine that behaves in a nicer fashion.
    Although IMHO, I might have changed that to: Ask the seller to lower the pressurestat setting or, where the pressurestat setting is already in the correct pressure range, then consider looking at another brand / model E61 machine that behaves in a nicer fashion.


    b4b.



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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Thank you, and then yes and no.......

    .....adjusting boiler / steam pressure only serves for small incremental changes. So if a machine or model is an incorrigible water /coffee burner that takes a long time to purge, lowering the steam /boiler pressure usually wont cut it.......you would have to lower the pressure to somewhere way below normal operating pressure where it wont do steam properly............leading back to original set up at manufacture, and to selecting something else.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    aka FC,
    first / original CS sponsor.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    So attilio, are you saying that theres nothing that can be done other than buying a new unit? I only ask because a friend of mine owns an ECM A3 Veneziano that I may be purchasing but at the moment it runs WAAYY hot (usually guages around 101C at the head using a scaceII. My thoughts were to PID the boiler, not for trying to flat line the temp, just for regulating the boiler at a lot cooler temp.

    Would this work in this case?

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Hi Ian,

    The Veneziano is very tweakable and almost all issues with it are easily overcome.

    You could do a whole heap worse than to employ a little consulting time with ex-ECA brainiac Peter Cairis. There is very little that he cant achieve with a Veneziano.

    Chris

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by psaigh link=1216260897/0#16 date=1216539148
    So attilio, are you saying that theres nothing that can be done other than buying a new unit? *I only ask because a friend of mine owns an ECM A3 Veneziano that I may be purchasing but at the moment it runs WAAYY hot (usually guages around 101C at the head using a scaceII. *My thoughts were to PID the boiler, not for trying to flat line the temp, just for regulating the boiler at a lot cooler temp.

    Would this work in this case?
    Doesnt sound like a great idea, a pressure stat is better than a PID IMO. Yeah the PID will keep the temp nice and constant, but a pstat only has a variation of a few degrees, and it response much more quickly to a temperature drop. When your pushing 30-60ml through an enormous hunk of hot brass, a few degrees difference at the start doesnt really make any difference. Flushing the right volume adjusts the temp of the group to help hit your target brew temp.

    My VBM Domobar super is also 100C at the group for the first 100ml or so if its been idle for a while, I just flush about 200ml then lock in, sometimes more depending on how much time I plan to leave before pulling the shot (ie flush and go or flush and wait - research shows they give a very similar shot profile, the flush and wait seems like it would work better but imho isnt worth doubling the flush and waiting an extra minute for) FWIW I have my boiler set at 1bar.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    psaigh,

    Most HX machines are very "tunable" by someone who is an expert in the field.

    As Sammus says above.... fitting a PID will do little if anything for you (well other than making your wallet lighter ;D)

    Pressurestats in commercial and prosumer machines do a very good job of regulating boiler pressure - hence boiler temperature..... equalling the accuracy of a PID.... The boiler will always be well over 100C (typically 120C) so its the thermodynamics between the boiler and the group which determine the pour temperature - not the boiler temperature directly. Even dropping the boiler temperature quite a bit often has little effect on the brew temp....

    But most machines can be tuned to provide the desired result..... and fitting a PID wont provide this.


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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Hello psaigh.

    Others have answered the PID question.

    What I am saying is, if I was buying a new machine and it is a coffee burner, I would dismiss it outright & look at something else as I believe that when you buy something, it should work properly first up ...period.

    When buying second hand, you could also adopt the above policy (I know others in here like to fiddle and modify, but my personal view is lifes too short...) OR you could factor in extra cost to have an experienced techie do the job. I would select the machines importer as a first port of call, as no one knows their own machine better than the importer.

    The machine you are interested in is not one of them, but not all machines are easily tunable, which kind of takes me back to my own personal philosphy that if it dont work straight up, I dont want it.

    Regardz,
    Attilio.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Just wishing to clarify- in no way is the Veneziano a coffee burner. I rate it as one of the best HX machines I have ever used.

    It can be tuned to improve performance as can most machines- as I have done with my Veneziano and we do on Giotti ;)

    Chris

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Old San Marino machines seem to be a popular choice for coffee cart set ups at markets. They must be cheap!

    Having never had a decent coffee made with one of these I abstain. I think the commercial SMs might be a good example of a machine that generally run too hot.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Thanks for clarifying Chris.....I wrote ".....The machine you are interested in is not one of them, but not all machines are easily tunable........." and upon re-reading this I can see it could have been written better. You got the drift.

    Regardz,
    Attilio.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    This almost looks like a good case of considering a Minore II double boiler rather than a HX.... (please note the word almost).
    Seeing as there isnt much you can do with a HX apart from going through a set routine of a cooling flush, to reduce the uncertainty a little, is there any value of using a K-type thermocouple wire similar to that provided in PID kits (the one with a hole in it to screw mount) and connecting that to the Allen screw on the E61? I know there is already quite an elaborate mod on a temp measuring probe to make it fit, but short of doing that, can I just connect the K type thing in the allen slot?

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1216260897/20#24 date=1216605347
    This almost looks like a good case of considering a Minore II double boiler rather than a HX.... (please note the word almost).
    Seeing as there isnt much you can do with a HX apart from going through a set routine of a cooling flush, to reduce the uncertainty a little, is there any value of using a K-type thermocouple wire similar to that provided in PID kits (the one with a hole in it to screw mount) and connecting that to the Allen screw on the E61? I know there is already quite an elaborate mod on a temp measuring probe to make it fit, but short of doing that, can I just connect the K type thing in the allen slot?
    When I purchased the Galatea I was informed
    If memory serves me right that the brew temp was factory set at 90 deg Cel to a maximum of 92 deg Cel

    I came across this great article on home barista it makes for good reading

    And how to fit a temp device to the E61 Head
    http://www.home-barista.com/forums/no-more-guesswork-naked-truth-of-e61-temperature-revealed-t319.html

    KK

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    You could do these things if you wish but the salient point is you dont need to.

    It doesnt take long to become familiar with a semi commercial heat exchanger machine and as stated in a post on the previous page, most that go from a Silvia to one of our Diadema Juniors say how much easier they find our semi commercial heat exchanger machines to operate than the Silvia.

    The point being the silvia is widely regarded as being the best domestic machine on the market, and it is "harder" to use than a good semi commercial E61 heat exchanger machine.

    Regardz,
    Attilio.


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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    The point being the silvia is widely regarded as being the best domestic machine on the market, and it is "harder" to use than a good semi commercial E61 heat exchanger machine.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    I get where you are coming from Attilio

    While on the ďResearch Mission" Hunt for a good espresso machine
    I remember my first post to CS wanting info for a Silvia and any mods?
    Well I skipped past the Silvia and I skipped over the VBM Levetta and went straight for the HX Bezzera

    The Bezzera Galatea *is my first home machine and I am thankful for this forum as it made me realize in terms of my needs and use it made sense to go straight for a Pointy end HX machine
    I truly believe I have saved time and money in the long term and I have had the best coffee in my life from the first day I got it

    Just think about in dollar terms (I actually make up to 8 per day)
    As an average
    4 X coffees a day X 7 days = 28 X 31 days (1 mth) = 868 coffees per month
    If in general it costs the home user $1 per cup thatís $868
    And if in general it costs $3.00 to buy a coffee / $3.00 X 868 = $2604 less $868 = $1736 saving per mth
    It does not take long to recoup the cost of a high end machine.

    Thatís one great reason to go for a HX Machine and the other is the temp stability *:)

    (Note Ė The numbers may change but the fact remains the machines pay for themselves in time)
    KK
    Edit

    Sorry maths wrong Start again
    4 X coffees a day X 7 days = 28 X 4 weeks (1 mth) = 112 coffees per month
    If in general it costs the home user $1 per cup thatís $112
    And if in general it costs $3.00 to buy a coffee / $3.00 X 112 = $336 less $112 = $224 saving per mth

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1216260897/20#27 date=1216618653
    I truly believe I have saved time and money in the long term and I have had the best coffee in my life from the first day I got it

    Just think about in dollar terms (I actually make up to 8 per day)
    As an average
    4 X coffees a day X 7 days = 28 X 31 days (1 mth) = 868 coffees per month
    If in general it costs the home user $1 per cup thatís $868
    And if in general it costs $3.00 to buy a coffee / $3.00 X 868 = $2604 less $868 = $1736 saving per mth
    It does not take long to recoup the cost of a high end machine.

    Thatís one great reason to go for a HX Machine and the other is the temp stability :)

    (Note Ė The numbers may change but the fact remains the machines pay for themselves in time)
    KK
    I get your point, KK, although query your maths. Saving $1736 per MONTH?? Wow - if only. ;D ;D ;D ;D

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1216260897/20#27 date=1216618653

    Just think about in dollar terms (I actually make up to 8 per day)

    As an average
    4 X coffees a day X 7 days = 28 X 31 days (1 mth) = 868 coffees per month
    There are 31 DAYS in a month, not 31 weeks


    It would 4 x31 = 124 coffees per month.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    KK, the part where your calculations are a bit off is wheer you multiply 4 coffees by 7 for a week and then multiply it again by 28 to make the month. Your calculations reflect the costs for 28 weeks, not 28 days.

    Still, good point. In my personal experiences though, it doesn;t really pay for itself in money terms. Thats because I keep buying more toys to accessorise. More green beans than I can roast in a year... Its a hobby and it provides enjoyment not only in the consumption but also the process and thats priceless. Its like fishing as a hobby. Youll never catch enough fish to justify what you spend on it. But its the enjoyment of it that makes your hard toil on weekdays worth it.

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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    A slight detour from temperature issues but still on E61, about the allen screw on the E61 head, whats to stop removing that screw and connecting a pressure gauge with an M6 threaded port in its place and measure the brew pressure instead of using a PF gauge?

  33. #33
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    OOOOps

    Should be X 4 = 1 month

    Have made an edit :( >:(



    KK

  34. #34
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Kosmo link=1216260897/20#25 date=1216609645

    I came across this great article on home barista it makes for good reading

    And how to fit a temp device to the E61 Head
    http://www.home-barista.com/forums/no-more-guesswork-naked-truth-of-e61-temperature-revealed-t319.html

    KK
    Or you can buy one thats already made...

    http://www.home-barista.com/forums/monitoring-brew-temperature-e61-silvia-t1352.html

  35. #35
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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1216260897/20#31 date=1216621607
    A slight detour from temperature issues but still on E61, about the allen screw on the E61 head, whats to stop removing that screw and connecting a pressure gauge with an M6 threaded port in its place and measure the brew pressure instead of using a PF gauge?
    Denis beat me to it on the temp side of things. The ready made kits have enhancements - including pressure.

    http://users.rcn.com/erics/DigThermAdptr.pdf

  36. #36
    psaigh
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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Thanks for your replies. My main interest in the Veneziano is for my up and coming cafe, were going to be using a Cyncra as the primary machine but id love to run an e61 alongside it, and I know the veneziano has a fantastic reputation.

    The particular machine in question has had many people look at it and it seems to be the black horse of the veneziano family. 200ml purges still yeild 100C at the head, which in a cafe environment is useless.

    If you dont think a pid will do much good, maybe ill have to (regretfully) give it a miss. Well see.

  37. #37
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    Re: Brew temp uncertainties on HX E61s

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1216260897/0#8 date=1216286113
    93 deg generally is too hot for the types of blends we like to use in this market. *The machine is most probably set up as per Italian market where they use more dense, heavier bodied coffees in their blends that can stand or need a brew temp at the higher end of the range suitable for espresso,....
    Not questioning that Italians use more dense and heavier coffees in the blends... The official description of espresso italiano says that the brew temperature of water in the machine must be 88+_2 degrees, C (http://www.espressoitaliano.org/doc/EIC%20-%20Eng%20-%20LQ.pdf)
    so technically, if they manufacture machines for espresso italiano (which I presume they should want) they shouldnt even bring temperature above 90 deg.
    interesting....




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