IIRC Dennis had a sheet as well.
IIRC Dennis had a sheet as well.
As youve probably discovered, there are quite a few coffee evaluation forms readily available. While ONE standard sheet might be a good idea, there will always be objections and suggestions. Ticking the right box is also very, very subjective.
So with that in mind, I suggest that you take a look at whats already available, adapt it to suit yourself, and keep your own notes.
Perhaps some of the key challenges are to develop ones palate and if you can get along to any local cupping opportunities its a great way of achieving this. Lots of roasters offer these for free.
Secondly, developing a common language would also help, and although Ted Lingle wrote a book with this intention, I dont know that its been widely embraced.
At the end of the day though, your experience of what constitutes coffee nirvana may be totally opposite to mine...and both of us would be right! ;)
I have this one
See PDF and save it to your computer
And this is page 2
If any one wants them in an electronic format, such that they can enter the data in on the PC... *Let me know..
Should not be much of a problem.
Also, the WBC site http://www.worldbaristachampionship.com/downloads.htm *has some of the Judges forms..
if i could grab it thatd be great! been data basing most of it but if youve got a better form then excellent!Originally Posted by 715E5755427D515E5157555D555E44300 link=1241747804/5#5 date=1241764122
Please advise me of teh Form you want to use and then what you want from it ?Originally Posted by 484D477D565B4C434C220 link=1241747804/6#6 date=1242027535
Data or the form..
PM me with you e-mail..
you gonna knock one up from scratch? man thats awesome!
im not sure what you mean by form... data would be as per standard cupping form but i think it would be beneficial for it to feed into a web graph? automatically populate a web graph. but yeah happy to listen to your input too!
If you have a form / pdf... It can be made into a active pdf form that then submits the data to you directly in xml format or to a web page..Originally Posted by 474248725954434C432D0 link=1241747804/8#8 date=1242031807
Drop me a PM with your private e-mail
awesome! thanks for that! pm to follow!
Cupping evaluation forms are really irritating things; they have to be meaningful to you to be of any use.
I have been working on coffee tasting forms for:
*traditional cupping + brewed coffee (combined);
I am currently up to version three of each and continue to improve them with the input of the guest reviewers at Coffee Review Australia. Once I get the forms to a stage where I think that they are straightforward to use and record information in a meaningful manner, I will put some PDFs up on my web page. Because I have developed these forms in order to provide information to the interested Australian coffee consumer, I hope that they will be a useful resource for CS members.
In the meantime, Id be interested to hear peoples thoughts on what they find useful in forms.
Hi Dennis,Originally Posted by 66474C4C4B51220 link=1241747804/2#2 date=1241751550
What you like is subjective, but to a fairly large extent, what you taste is not. The difficulty is that people dont use the same terminology to describe it. As you say, a large part of Lingles book sets out a structured way to describe tastes, flavours and aromas. Lingles terminology for the interactions between the basic tastes havent taken off all that much, but they do crop up a fair bit and when they do, they are extremely useful if you know what you are looking for. This is kind of funny, seeing as people so often rave about the coffee tasters flavour wheel, but dont seem to make the effort to actually navigate through it for a particular coffee. That said, it isnt a big loss because people do seem to be quite good at describing the basic tastes with numbers. The flavour and aroma descriptors in the book crop up all the time, though. Take a look at any COE auction, Best of Panama auction or cupping notes from good brokers and the links to Lingles book are pretty clear. What is nice in the recent COE auctions is that people are taking the effort to describe the types of acids they are tasting, presumably largely off the back of Joseph Riveras work. In a few years, rather than hearing "sweet," it would be nice to hear "arabinose" ... but, of course, only if that is meaningful to you!
The thing to keep in mind with cupping evaluation forms is that they are all geared to evaluate coffee against the background of a particular taste ideology, reflected in the weighting of the various factors in the form against each other and the way in which each is scored. The simplest way to look at it is to look at the SCAA form; high acidity and dry aroma will improve the score, so coffee A can get a lower ultimate score than coffee B because of its high acidity and aroma, notwithstanding that these might not translate well into espresso. Why? Perhaps because the form was developed with brewed coffee in mind?
Ticking the boxes is not actually "very, very subjective". (Actually, lots of cupping forms dont have any boxes.) It is just that it requires calibration to the particular form for the scores to be useful. For example, in the week that I was doing the coffeelab course, I think that most of the acidity scores that everyone handed out were between 7.25 and 7.75, even though you can score it anywhere between 5 and 10. This is because that is how the SCAA form works. I have to say that taking the time to get calibrated against that form was something that I found immensely rewarding. I no longer look at cupping notes on the SCAA and similar forms and think "huh?" Instead, I can practically taste the coffee that is being described and I understand why I like some coffees a lot more than others that have higher scores. All of this is extremely useful when it comes to buying coffee.
You are very, very right in saying that tasting experience really helps in understanding cupping forms. If you are only interested in your own notes, it is fine to record them however you want. If you want to understand other peoples notes, unfortunately you have to be able to calibrate yourself against the form that they are using. This isnt really all that important for home roasters, but the pro roasters who do it really well are at a distinct advantage when it comes to sourcing the best coffee.
They are one of my loves / hates..Originally Posted by 372E383A5B0 link=1241747804/11#11 date=1242924972
Being ex Health and Gov... Forms are what drives every one.. Yet many do not understand them..
1: Hard copy or Electronic or Both
2: How the data is to be submitted
3: How the data is to be reviewed / used
4: Who will be entering / using ?
5: Check boxes and comments
6: Rating Scales / Agreement Scales what methodology ? Likert-scale ? Questions can be developed that will lead / direct to an outcome :-)
7: Collating and putting it together ?
8: How big / How often
9: Will the data pick a winner or be also used over to to assess some things..
10: Many others..
A: It has to flow for the user to be accepting
B: It has to be easy to use
C: That data / results have to be able to be collated easily
d: Results should be able to be graphed / presented in different ways..
Depending on Data and sample size etc, it can then add to the actual confidence that some may have in the data / outcome
I could go on... As I do like one survey method over many... But it depends on what the actual focus is... Net promoter score...
"Arabinose"....I had a laugh - I had to look that one up! Certainly, having the ability to identify and verbalise such distinctions is an advantage for a roaster. Calibrating ones own scores and perceptions against those of others is an interesting topic. By nature, most humans want to fit in with their peers. I know of a number of psychology experiments that prove time and time again, that we will conform to popular opinion.Originally Posted by 5A435557360 link=1241747804/11#11 date=1242924972
Anyway, I wouldnt like to see the day when the average coffee drinker needs to take a dictionary with them to make out the description given on a pack of beans.
Perhaps of interest, I recently attempted to solicit feedback from 100 regular customers about the descriptions given on our packs of coffee. Some of these customers stick to a particular blend, while others prefer to vary their coffee purchases. I invited these customers to provide a couple of short sentences describing how they would describe our coffee, with the intention of changing the existing descriptors on the packs. A prize was offered for, the best entry.
So, guess how many responses I received? ZERO.
I just had a customer leave after sitting to have a flat white. As he left, he said, "the coffee was beautiful". Maybe thats really all we need. ;)
That is why I like the Net promoter score... *Simple - One question - Two at most..Originally Posted by 4D6C6767607A090 link=1241747804/13#13 date=1242951738
Wiki - Companies obtain their Net Promoter Score by asking customers a single question . Based on their responses, customers can be categorized into one of three groups: Promoters (9-10 rating), Passives (7-8 rating), and Detractors (0-6 rating). The percentage of Detractors is then subtracted from the percentage of Promoters to obtain a Net Promoter score. A score of 75% or above is considered quite high.
Companies are encouraged to follow this question with an open-ended request for elaboration, soliciting the reasons for a customers rating of that company or product.
These reasons can then be provided to front-line employees and management teams for follow-up action.
Q1: On a 0 to 10 rating scale: "How likely is it that you would recommend our (company/product/service/ COFFEE) to a friend or colleague?"
Q2: Please comment as to the main reason why you rated at this level
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiAAhUeR6YOriginally Posted by 77585153447B57585751535B535842360 link=1241747804/14#14 date=1242952707
Originally Posted by 4941484D474D4B5157240 link=1241747804/15#15 date=1242961313
Very excellent vid Melicious
Long, but very excellent
...off to have a sandwich how I like it...
Im with Den on this.... Any descriptors you use must have meaning for you and in particular, meaning that wont be lost with the passage of time, otherwise, whats the point? :-?
I also fully understand the need to reduce subjectivity down to quantifiable units for the purposes of comparing and evaluating the merits of coffees from all the various regions. Something along the lines of what Sweet Marias use I find very useful... In the form of a Polar chart.
At a glance, you can view all the meaningful criteria and compare different beans, different regions, different crops and have an expectation of what a particular coffee is going to taste like, in the cup. Alternatively, you can very quickly search for a coffee with a particular chart profile that appeals to your preference.
Wending my way through a form for each and every bean on a list is not something I call fun really, so something that can reduce this to a more visual representation will have merit for mere amateurs such as myself I believe,
Thanks for that. I actually meant to ask specifically about coffee tasting forms, but you have nonetheless given me an interesting and insightful list to consider.
I agree wholeheartedly!Originally Posted by 49686363647E0D0 link=1241747804/13#13 date=1242951738
That said, we need to remember that cupping is an activity undertaken with a purpose and that the forms are directed towards that purpose. The purpose is usually either evaluating green coffee for purchase or, perhaps, evaluating roasted coffee for consistency. The average coffee drinker is not the target audience for cupping forms, so it shouldnt be a surprise if the resultant numbers, etc, arent all that useful to the average coffee drinker. Cupping forms are usually directed towards professional roasters, who one would expect would take the time to learn how to use and understand them - if the particular form is relevant to their business, that is.
Underlying all of this is the idea that a palate is something that you have to work at building. A form can help you record your impressions, but it will not improve your palate; tasting more coffee will, particularly if you cup with experienced people.
If youre reading this thread, I guess that all of this boils down to this - if you want a form, pick the one that is best suited to provide the information to determine if you will like a particular coffee and learn how to use it. (If you dont want to use a form ... why are you reading this thread? ;P)
Sorry, probably should have warned about the length but wanted to post n run (to work).Originally Posted by 2F273F35284C0 link=1241747804/16#16 date=1242963716
I thought maybe dennis might find something of value there for the next time hes trying to find out what his customers want. The moral of the story seems to be:
1. Youll find that out by collecting huge amounts of data (maybe blind taste tests for customers)... could be expensive and...
2. You will still need the range because its in the range offered that customer satisfaction can best be met.
3. People just cant tell you what they want, you need to offer it to them in that range and match them to their real favourite.
Im not on the scene there, but Id suggest focussing on the ones who are changing their blend choice all the time - the others you are clearly meeting their needs, but these bean-butterlies are finding good qualities in a lot of blends but not The Perfect coffee (for them).
Or maybe they are using different brew methods and matching bean choice to method, in which case probably still interesting to talk to cause that sounds like "coffeesnobs behaviour" right there.
To get back on topic, its all about tailoring and providing a form is still going to be a matter of finding the right words, and unfortunately the "right words" are just whats meaningful to you and may not be meaningful to anyone else using the form, either to cup or to compare data.
Appreciate your thoughts Mel and certainly enjoyed the video - theres plenty to learn there.
As for the customers that swap and change, its not so much a matter of not having found exactly what they like, but rather, enjoying diversity. For them, its a bit like going to your favourite restaurant and choosing something different from the menu. For the same reason I dont stick to one blend in the grinder for the coffee served at the shop, and our patrons enjoy this, often asking "whats in the grinder today?"
New customers often ask for advice when selecting beans to take home. I can pretty much guarantee that if I were to say, blend A is best, thats the one they will buy. Were a funny lot! :)
^^ A ha, so they are CS-ers in waiting... even better, hey? ;)