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  • #16
    Re: Mass Production

    Originally posted by 435A4C4E2F0 link=1235737032/12#12 date=1236173516
    I dont understand what you are trying to say.
    Sorry, an example of what I meant is that I can get a Big Mac in either Sydney or Melbourne, and can be pretty sure they will both taste the same. Whether I think its any good or not is another matter.

    I also pretty much agree with what youre saying Luca, though I think you may agree that the current CoEs are likely to taste different to the next, even if they happen to be from the same farm and variety. Trade blends are of course subject to seasonal crops, just like apples. I understand that its the roasters responsibility to adapt their product to these changes, again, to provide consistency. Yet while I have an expectation of what a granny smith apple will taste like, Im not so surprised that one may taste a little different to another.

    Unless Ive missed something, again up until this point I have made no mention of quality. I do believe quality and consistency have independent meanings, though would agree that when we speak of one, we expect the other to also be present in either a good or bad sense. Just like GM or Ford, its not to say that these two dont manufacture quality cars consistently, yet I would expect a higher quality from a smaller, hand-built car like a Morgan. Of course, this all comes at a cost. Perhaps its just my own perception, but I think that expectations of a small, or boutique roaster are higher than that of the big boys.

    I know there are a number of both small and large-scale roasters who imo, create magnificent coffee, time and time again. Currently, both seem to be outnumbered by those whose coffee I find unpalatable.

    Hope that clarifies.


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    • #17
      Re: Mass Production

      Heres a question to throw out there, along the same subject line. I was reading an article recently by (I think) Dr Illy, where he mentioned that as part of their quality control they had developed machinery that could detect certain faults in the unroasted bean and remove them prior to roasting.

      Obviously a system like this would be too costly for many smaller roasters to develop or perhaps even purchase. Are many of the larger roasters using such systems, and does it in the end make any difference to quality or consistency?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Mass Production

        Yeah that was with a whole lot of laser/light technology. V.cool. And yeah its in the Espresso Coffee (awesomeness) book.

        Though I just read that Probat have something cool going on with sorting - a whole lot of digital cameras and little bursts of air to sort them by colour. 8-)

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Mass Production

          Originally posted by 3C2A2F2F3E3C3039393A3A5F0 link=1235737032/15#15 date=1236217580

          I also pretty much agree with what youre saying Luca, though I think you may agree that the current CoEs are likely to taste different to the next, even if they happen to be from the same farm and variety. Trade blends are of course subject to seasonal crops, just like apples. I understand that its the roasters responsibility to adapt their product to these changes, again, to provide consistency.
          Out of curiosity ... why? Why does it have to taste the same year to year, crop to crop? What does it matter as long as it tastes good?


          Originally posted by 3C373E2D2B2D3A2C5F0 link=1235737032/14#14 date=1236204055
          For argument sake, If I buy DiBellas Premium blend, I know that it makes, to my taste, one of the best milk based coffees that I have tasted (though not particularly special as short black)... and when I buy it, I expect perhaps to treat my guests to just that. suppose I find that its tastes something different, improved perhaps, better perhaps as espresso, but its not what I wanted... Will I complain? Perhaps not, because I still have good coffee. Will I buy it next time? I dont know...
          Even if it is now a better product? I dont understand this. :-/


          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Mass Production

            Originally posted by 607A6C79790D0 link=1235737032/18#18 date=1236225176
            Even if it is now a better product? I dont understand this.  :-/
            Im with you on that one Michelle.

            I for one dont expect my coffee to taste the same from crop to crop any more that I would want wine to be the same :-?. The more variety I can get, the better. Does wonders for the palate .

            Give me variety, preferably at high quality and Ill try to find a way of drinking it which best highlights the bean...

            Sanitise it, look for sameness and then all of a sudden, boring!

            2mcm

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Mass Production

              Originally posted by 0E51495F545F535A5A5959515D523C0 link=1235737032/19#19 date=1236225624
              Sanitise it, look for sameness and then all of a sudden, boring!

              You are not wrong.... and that is a MAJOR problem with our society.... not just the products we consume.....

              We aim at sameness in everything these days.... and for sameness read "lowest common denominator".... even in schools where once excellence was encouraged and rewarded.... they have been "dumbed down".... so the not so bright students dont feel so bad....

              Sameness is something to be loathed IMHO.... not something to be aimed at.....

              Ever heard of "viva la difference"..... do exactly that - in all things.... appreciate the difference and enjoy the fact that it is the best you can get in those circumstances... rather than something of a lower standard - just so it can be consistent.....

              And that especially applies to Coffee, wine and other fine food and beverage appreciation.

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              • #22
                Re: Mass Production

                Originally posted by 766C7A6F6F1B0 link=1235737032/18#18 date=1236225176
                Out of curiosity ... why? Why does it have to taste the same year to year, crop to crop?....
                So you can be just like charbucks, la vazza and all the big boys?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Mass Production

                  Originally posted by 72687E6B6B1F0 link=1235737032/18#18 date=1236225176
                  Out of curiosity ... why?
                  Cause if your expecting corn flakes and it tastes like sultana bran you might not be too happy about it.

                  For difference, I roast SOs, and while the blends I roast may differ ever so slightly from one batch to the next, season to season, my aim is to keep them reasonably consistent.

                  Some customers love trying different SOs and blends, while others purchase the same SO or blend and never deviate. Either way is OK by me.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Mass Production

                    Originally posted by 5046434352505C55555656330 link=1235737032/15#15 date=1236217580
                    Originally posted by 435A4C4E2F0 link=1235737032/12#12 date=1236173516
                    I dont understand what you are trying to say.
                    Sorry, an example of what I meant is that I can get a Big Mac in either Sydney or Melbourne, and can be pretty sure they will both taste the same.  Whether I think its any good or not is another matter.
                    Sorry ... Im still scratching my head a bit ... you seem to be saying that the two are different, but you also seem to have picked an example specifically to highlight where flavour and quality is sacrificed for consistency. To put it another way, would you agree that if I bought, say, a dozen bottles of 1982 Chateau Petrus that had all been looked after well by the resellers and I treated them well myself, I should expect them to taste consistently the same?

                    Originally posted by 5046434352505C55555656330 link=1235737032/15#15 date=1236217580
                    I also pretty much agree with what youre saying Luca, though I think you may agree that the current CoEs are likely to taste different to the next, even if they happen to be from the same farm and variety.  Trade blends are of course subject to seasonal crops, just like apples.  I understand that its the roasters responsibility to adapt their product to these changes, again, to provide consistency.  Yet while I have an expectation of what a granny smith apple will taste like, Im not so surprised that one may taste a little different to another.
                    I think youre confusing two different things. You are talking about variation from crop to crop. Thats fine, I acknowledge that that is going to happen.

                    I - and, I think, Chatres - am talking about variation when using a given crop by a roaster. Once a pro roaster gets that bag or that pallet in their factory, I think that consumers are entitled to expect that if they buy that coffee one week from the roaster it will taste the same the next. Roasting consistently is a skill that professional roasters should possess.

                    Blends are an interesting issue. On the one hand, I appreciate that crops will change and be substituted and that that may change the flavour of the blend. Thats fine, if the roaster changes their tasting notes for the coffee. If they dont change their tasting notes, they should select green coffee to maintain the flavour profile that they have established. Skillful bean buying is another skill that professional roasters should possess.

                    Bottom line is that the coffee should taste like what the roaster holds it out to taste like and it shouldnt change from week to week unless the customer is notified.

                    Customers shouldnt be paying to be beta testers for blends, origins and roast profiles that the roaster is experimenting with unless they have an idea of what they are getting. I dont think that professional roasters can get away with disguising their failure to do their homework as some sort of variation that is to be celebrated.

                    Originally posted by 5046434352505C55555656330 link=1235737032/15#15 date=1236217580
                    Unless Ive missed something, again up until this point I have made no mention of quality.
                    I gathered that you were implying that quality is necessarily sacrificed for consistency by saying that people that value consistency might be better off buying their coffee from a supermarket shelf. Thats what prompted me to post.

                    Originally posted by 5046434352505C55555656330 link=1235737032/15#15 date=1236217580
                    I do believe quality and consistency have independent meanings, though would agree that when we speak of one, we expect the other to also be present in either a good or bad sense.  Just like GM or Ford, its not to say that these two dont manufacture quality cars consistently, yet I would expect a higher quality from a smaller, hand-built car like a Morgan.  Of course, this all comes at a cost.  Perhaps its just my own perception, but I think that expectations of a small, or boutique roaster are higher than that of the big boys.
                    Yes, I think that the informed public does have higher expectations of smaller roasters than they do of larger roasters. I also think that that leads to a certain amount of free-riding, where people can buy a roaster, turn some green brown and then pretty convincingly lead the public to think that they are doing a great job when they actually arent. Of course, this applies equally to any roaster, regardless of size ... which is just a roundabout way of saying that it all comes down to what is actually in the cup. In this regard, I have to say that my impression is probably that small roasters as a group are probably less consistent than bigger roasters and have a wider spread for quality.

                    Originally posted by 5046434352505C55555656330 link=1235737032/15#15 date=1236217580
                    I know there are a number of both small and large-scale roasters who imo, create magnificent coffee, time and time again.  Currently, both seem to be outnumbered by those whose coffee I find unpalatable.
                    Yeah, but thats like saying that the portion of restaurants that cook a meal worth paying $200 for is tiny because you include fast food franchises within the definition of restaurant and, hence, have a massive denominator. The problem is that nowadays every roaster seems to use the exact same buzzwords, which is absurd -- its like having McDonalds advertising their beef patties as Wagyu. The difference is that the market seems to tolerate this sort of creative marketing when it comes to coffee. (A friend of mine came up with an extremely eloquent and accuratedescription for marketing and coffee descriptions by most coffee roasteries - lies.) The portion of coffee roasters dishing out great coffee relative to those that use all the buzzwords would have to be dismal.

                    All of which is to say that talk is cheap. Pro roasters can put up or shut up by actually selling some tasty coffee. Consistently tasty - in the same way.

                    Cheers,

                    Luca

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Mass Production

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      picked an example specifically to highlight where flavour and quality is sacrificed for consistency.
                      No, I just picked an example. Im sure there are plenty of people who think the burgers have flavour and of good quality.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      would you agree that if I bought, say, a dozen bottles of 1982 Chateau Petrus that had all been looked after well by the resellers and I treated them well myself, I should expect them to taste consistently the same?
                      Despite not having tried it myself, yes. I would also imagine that this Petrus was probably fermented and stored all in the one batch before being bottled.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      I think youre confusing two different things.
                      No, I think *we* were confusing two different things.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      I - and, I think, Chatres - am talking about variation when using a given crop by a roaster.
                      OK, so I accept thats what you meant. Ive re-read Chartres comments and for the life of me cant see how you think his meaning was the same or even vaguely similar.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      Blends are an interesting issue.On the one hand, I appreciate that crops will change and be substituted and that that may change the flavour of the blend.Thats fine, if the roaster changes their tasting notes for the coffee.If they dont change their tasting notes, they should select green coffee to maintain the flavour profile that they have established.Skillful bean buying is another skill that professional roasters should possess.

                      Bottom line is that the coffee should taste like what the roaster holds it out to taste like and it shouldnt change from week to week unless the customer is notified.

                      Customers shouldnt be paying to be beta testers for blends, origins and roast profiles that the roaster is experimenting with unless they have an idea of what they are getting.
                      Agree.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      I dont think that professional roasters can get away with disguising their failure to do their homework as some sort of variation that is to be celebrated.
                      I dont know of any who do. Do you?

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      In this regard, I have to say that my impression is probably that small roasters as a group are probably less consistent than bigger roasters and have a wider spread for quality.
                      No argument here.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      I gathered that you were implying that quality is necessarily sacrificed for consistency
                      I do my best not to imply but rather state what I mean. Obviously, not always that clearly!

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      The difference is that the market seems to tolerate this sort of creative marketing when it comes to coffee.
                      Look around. The market not only tolerates this when it comes to coffee, it pretty much embraces it no matter what the product. I use Gillette blades so I can play tennis like Roger, sink a golf ball like Tiger, and I still havent worked out who that other bloke is. What logo do you have on your t-shirt by the way?

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      The problem is that nowadays every roaster seems to use the exact same buzzwords, which is absurd
                      The idea of providing a descriptor is to give the consumer an idea of what to expect. I think we agree on that, though at this point in our online conversation I have a little doubt.

                      Our most popular coffee is the World Blend. The descriptor reads, "The aroma produces berry and sweet spice sensations. With a thick, dark crema the flavour is rich and buttery, leaving a mouth-feel of lingering bitter-sweet chocolate."

                      Reflecting on this blurb the crema isnt really all that dark. Its more a kind of mid-hazelnut colour. Ill change it.

                      Originally posted by 756C7A78190 link=1235737032/23#23 date=1236254252
                      Pro roasters can put up or shut up by actually selling some tasty coffee.
                      Now if you read that carefully, thats confusing!

                      Cheers!






                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Mass Production

                        Originally posted by 2F35233636420 link=1235737032/18#18 date=1236225176
                        chartres wrote on Yesterday at 09:00:
                        For argument sake, If I buy DiBellas Premium blend, I know that it makes, to my taste, one of the best milk based coffees that I have tasted (though not particularly special as short black)... and when I buy it, I expect perhaps to treat my guests to just that. suppose I find that its tastes something different, improved perhaps, better perhaps as espresso, but its not what I wanted... Will I complain? Perhaps not, because I still have good coffee. Will I buy it next time? I dont know...


                        Even if it is now a better product? I dont understand this.  
                        very simple - if theres a meaningful and intelligible description of what this blend is like then Id like the coffee to match this description and not be better than what description provides ;-) Note, that I only am talking about the case when we have a particular blend and its sold under unchanged description. If you come the pizza restaurant and order margarita i pretty much expect a particular thing... of course if I come to the restaurant and theres on the menu - "todays chef creation, whatever he feels like and God help him", I (provided I trust the chef) will be open to surprise and be happy to discover. But then you see my expectations are managed this way.
                        Once again, I am sorry, I dont think I quite explained myself. The roaster (or cook for that matter) has his own idea of what he wants to have at the end and he, if you like, signs his name next to his creation. If the result that he has got in his mind, this target, is consistently achieved day after day - I am happy. The target itself may be changing, but Id like the roaster to know in advance what he is working towards, not to get the result after some unrepeatable process and then describe it.
                        thats all.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Mass Production

                          Originally posted by 796F6A6A7B79757C7C7F7F1A0 link=1235737032/22#22 date=1236234399
                          Michelle wrote on Yesterday at 14:52:
                          Out of curiosity ... why?


                          Cause if your expecting corn flakes and it tastes like sultana bran you might not be too happy about it.
                          Exactly!!!
                          I dont want every vintage of Bass Phillip to be the same, but Id like them all to taste like European style pinot , because thats what I like and thats why I agree to pay 100bucks for a bottle of wine which for some smells foul ;-)

                          I am happy that we finally agree ;-) (at least I believe we agree on this) And I do like small boutique wines and roasters, as well as small restaurants ;-). I think Luca understood well what I meant  - whatever you do must be repeatable so you could do it again if you (and customers wanted it). Often I dont want to know what exactly you have done, but I want you to be able to repeat it ;-) ( and yes, mostly it matters within the same batch because otherwise other factors creep in)

                          I guess to speak more generally what I meant is that the roaster should really be able to use his tools so that he could achieve very precise result which he would know in advance. This is not easy and maybe it sholdnt be done every time, but at least he should know what he is doing. If I want to make a symmetrical rosetta on my latte but at the end it comes as a heart - its not really good, even though coffee tastes well.

                          I am pretty sure Jimmy Page, fond of improvisation as he is, would be able to play his part in Dazed and Confused the same way two times in the row, if he wanted... it just to show that he has got the skill and he can use his instrument to his liking ;-)

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                          • #28
                            Re: Mass Production

                            Thanks for taking the time for further explanation Chartres, and ye,s I agree with you wholeheartedly!

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