Another newbie question

[csutak40]

Well I got my Silvia/Rocky.  Yey!!    Even though Im nowhere near a perfect shot, not only does it taste a million times better than my Saeco Magic, it also produces a lot stronger coffee!  I used to make two double shots every morning from my Saeco, for my breakfast, now one double shot tastes a lot better - I think two of those would make me stand on my head!   ;D

Now I have some very newbie questions.

1. After experimenting for hours, still can’t get my dose/tamp right.  I have finally managed to get a 60ml shot with 15gr coffee in 25 seconds, (using the double filter) but the puck is not dry although the screw impression left in the puck is clearly defined.  Not sure what that means?  Too fine, too coarse?  The sites I’ve found telling me that a wet puck is a bad thing, (not that I didn’t already know that  :) don’t really offer a solution.  Sometimes, but not every time, water comes running off the sides as well.  This, btw, was happening to the coffee shop owner who sold me the machine, as he was demonstrating it with his machine.  He thought it was caused my too much coffee, but I use the same amount every time.

This brings me to my next (or same?  :-X) problem.  I get the dose right, make my shot and drink it, feeling very proud of myself.   ;D  Next time, using the same grind and amount (yes, I actually weigh it – hopefully I will get used to the right quantity by sight eventually!  ) the result changes.  Way more than the 60ml shot, usually.

Again, a connected question.  Having Googled Silvia, I read all these differing opinions.  One site says that leaving the machine on overnight (although not good for one’s electric bill  ;D and will lead to faster deterioration of the group gasket) definitely improves the shot.  Another site says NEVER to leave it on for longer than an hour!  I haven’t left it on overnight, but definitely have for longer than an hour.  Am I killing my Silvia??? :-/

2.  The Coffee shop guy told me it is better not to take the water tank out – take the water to it.  Shouldn’t one empty it and fill it with fresh water once a day or so?

3.  While on the subject of water.  He warned me not to wet the grinder.  I thought he must think I’m and idiot.     However, now that I’m using it…  Every time I do the preheating thing (letting water run out without coffee in the portafilter, water splashes everywhere, including the side of the Rocky.  (I have one of those drawers they sit on)  Is there a trick on how to stop it from splashing?  I am trying to think where to get some kind of plastic shield from, to shield the Rocky, but surely, there must be an easier way?

Oh, another thing on water.  I have noticed that sometimes water runs out from somewhere.  It seems to collect under the  left side back leg of the Silvia – great big puddle of it.  I think it happens when I fill up the tank, maybe I overfill it?  I did fill it close to the top, but certainly not completely to the top.

4.  Another thing I’m a bit confused about: is Espresso Cleaner the same as descaler?

PS.  In case youre wondering, Im not using the Silvias plastic tamp, I have a s/s one.

PPS  I also read somewhere (by Alan Frew, now cant find it) something about switching it on for 3 seconds, turning it off for 5, then start the shot.  Thats the only place Ive seen that.  Any thoughts on that?

[fatboy_1999]

Re: Another newbie question

Judy,

Ill try to shed some light on a couple of your questions.

1 - Dose/Tamp takes a bit of practice. If possible, get some cheap roasted beans that you are not particularly interested in drinking and try different combinations of grind and tamp pressure. Many people do not tamp hard enough. Most figures on the web suggest 30KG of pressure. If you have bathroom scales, see if you can use them to give yourself an idea of how hard 30KGs is. When I am dialing in a new bean on the grinder, I set up a shot glass (30ML) on one spout and a small cup on the other and keep grinding/tamping until I get the 25-30 second shot. Invariably, if I have the grind and tamp right (and have not overfilled the basket) the puck is pretty dry.

When I dose the basket (I have a rocky with doser), I slightly overfill the basket, tap down on bench to settle it, level off (removing excess) with an icy pole stick and then do my tamp. I have found that I never overdose my basket these days. This helps with a dry puck. It also seems to stop any leaking during the shot.

As for leaving the machine on for extended periods, I would say no. Im sure you will find a lot of articles on the web talking about temperature stability or instability of the Silvia. I find that my shots are definitely better when the machine has had 10-30 minutes warmup (with empty basket/portafilter in place), but if you leave it on for too long, the water in the boiler gets heated up multiple times and will not taste as good in my opinion. It can also get too hot for making good shots.

2 - I dont think removing the water tank is an issue. The only reason not to take it out is the hoses will spill water if not careful. I dont take mine out that often, but it should certainly be taken out and washed every now and then because even with filtered water going into it, some yuck develops.

3 - Hmm. When I do my preheat, water flows through spouts and into drip tray. Is water coming out from places other than the coffee spouts of the portafilter? If so, you might have coffee grounds around the group head - needs a clean. If it is clean, there might be an actual problem. Keep an eye on this. I have my combo also on the stand and never get splashes onto the grinder.

As for the water coming out, if you are not overfilling the tank (keeping in mind the cutout is slightly lower than the rest of the tank) you have an issue. Someone else on this site reported something similar a while ago, Ill see if I can find the post. I know about the overfilling where the cutout is, because thats what I did on day one (and two).

EDIT - Found the thread - http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1099296647
Answer about leaking is on page 2, but the whole thread might be a good read for you. It deals with a couple of new Silvia owners problems. The drip tray was 4mm undersized on his machine which was causing the issue.

4 - Espresso cleaner is not the same as descaler. You dont really want to put espresso cleaner through your machines internals. Generally, espresso cleaner is a harsh chemical mix. Descaler can be as well, but many people here extoll the virtues of citric acid for descaling.

PPS - The switching on for 3, off for 5, etc. is sometimes called pre-infusion and I dont really know much about it, but it sounds a bit too much for this level of machine.

Hope that helps.

Brett.

[AndyCJ]

Re: Another newbie question

Ive not got this combo Judy (congratulations on the new purchase thou! good work) but to answer your PPS question.

It is indeed called Pre-infusion, but Ive read that this doesnt work on a machine with a 3 way valve like the Silvia. The 3 way valve would release the pressure into the drip tray from the group, and youde end up wasting the best bit of the shot.

So, stick to a 25 second shot and youll be right.

[csutak40]

Re: Another newbie question

Dose/Tamp takes a bit of practice. If possible, get some cheap roasted beans that you are not particularly interested in drinking and try different combinations of grind and tamp pressure.

Which is what Ive been doing since Friday  

Many people do not tamp hard enough. Most figures on the web suggest 30KG of pressure.

30kg???? [smiley=shocked.gif]  I thought it was 30lb!  I have actually got out the bathroom scales and managed 15kg (which is about 30lb)  No guarantee, of course that I get the same tamping on the table  

I also have small espresso glasses, and I measured 60ml in it, it reaches the rim, so it is a good one to use (I also marked the line in textra  ;D - the 30ml as well)

keep grinding/tamping until I get the 25-30 second shot. Invariably, if I have the grind and tamp right (and have not overfilled the basket) the puck is pretty dry.

Well, I have been grinding/tamping and get it right, but the next day the same grind etc. gives different results.  :-?  The puck is firm, but still wet on top.

When I dose the basket (I have a rocky with doser), I slightly overfill the basket, tap down on bench to settle it, level off (removing excess) with an icy pole stick and then do my tamp. I have found that I never overdose my basket these days. This helps with a dry puck. It also seems to stop any leaking during the shot.

I started off  doing more or less what you do, (I have a doserless) except I use my finger, not an icy pole stick (good idea  ;D)  One thing I havent done, is to tap it on the bench first - will definitely do this in future.  Having lost my confidence, Ive taken to grinding into a dish and weighing it   :-[ then spooning it into the filter.  I suppose even thats not 100% accurate, because my scales weigh in 5gr increments.

When I do my preheat, water flows through spouts and into drip tray. Is water coming out from places other than the coffee spouts of the portafilter?

Definitely!  It is clear water, not coffee.  Wait, two separate issues.  The splashing of water to the Rocky happens when Im priming and/or letting out water of the shower, to clean it when I finished.  It just seems to splash and go everywhere, even if I put a glass under it, most misses the glass    The other water that seems to leak towards the back of the machine, after Ive filled it (I dont think Ive over filled it, I definitely noticed the cut out bit) I cant figure out where its coming from.  I dont think the drip tray has anything to do with it either.  Having said that, I have noticed that there is a bit of water under the drip tray, but not much.  The one thing I forgot to check, with the water at the back, if it was hot or cold.  Will, if it ever happens again.

Thank you for the link to the previous thread, very educational  

One thing Ive read there, that I hadnt noticed, is that the lid also has a wrong and right way of going on the tank.  I checked and I do have it on the right way this time, but no guarantee that it was always on that way, as I never looked under it, so never knew the difference  

If so, you might have coffee grounds around the group head - needs a clean. If it is clean, there might be an actual problem. Keep an eye on this. I have my combo also on the stand and never get splashes onto the grinder.

I wonder if the splashing happens when I had the machine on too long and the water got too hot?  I make a point of letting water out after Ive pulled my shot, without the filter in, to clean the group.  Also have a look afterwards if it looks clean.  I realise that one needs to take it apart every so often to clean it properly, but how often?  Can you give me a rundown on daily, weekly etc. routine, please?

Espresso cleaner is not the same as descaler. You dont really want to put espresso cleaner through your machines internals. Generally, espresso cleaner is a harsh chemical mix. Descaler can be as well, but many people here extoll the virtues of citric acid for descaling.

Which is what I thought, but the guy that sold me the machine said it was the same, also warned me against using citric acid (which Ive read about before)  Mind you, just checked, he told me he is throwing in an espresso cleaner (which is why I asked him the question) now that Ive checked, he actually gave me descaler  ;D

Thank very much for the help

[fatboy_1999]

Re: Another newbie question

30kg???? [smiley=shocked.gif]  I thought it was 30lb!  I have actually got out the bathroom scales and managed 15kg (which is about 30lb)  No guarantee, of course that I get the same tamping on the table  

Judy,  youre probably right. I did a quick search last night whilst posting and got 2 pages in a row that quoted 30KGs of pressure. I think they were confusing it with 30lbs.

Heres a nifty gadget. Not cheap and not from AU, but interesting.
http://www.home-espresso.com/product/3006CL

As for the grinding being right once and then not the same, relative humidity can also effect the grind required. Usually a one notch adjustment one way or the other is sufficient.

However, I have also found that if I make a coffee after a 30 minute warmup (and all is fine), leave the machine on and make another coffee 3 hours later, you REALLY need to cycle some water through before making your next coffee. Im talking about 300ml to totally empty the water in the boiler and let the machine heat the new water up. If I dont do this, I often get issues with the pour being radically different to the last one even though the grind/tamp is the same.

[Dimal]

Re: Another newbie question

Hi Judy,

Re: the splashing problem when flushing out the Group.... I found a plastic mug at Woollies that was the perfect size to fit neatly over the Group Head with the PF removed. Just hold it so that the Group Shroud is immersed into the mug about an inch or so and then flush away. Not a drop escapes, guaranteed ;D.

About tamping.... there are more stories posted about this particular subject than most others but what Ive found works for me is as follows:

I always grind a couple of grams extra coffee than I know will fit into the basket. I fill up the basket until the coffee is just proud of the rim and then tap lightly on the bench a few times until this settles. I then add the remainder of the ground coffee which finishes up as a slightly heaped mound. This is then moved around the basket with the edge of the plastic dosing spoon that comes with the machine, until there are no voids or gaps visible on the surface. The excess is then gently swept off into the knock-box.

Time for tamping now. I must admit to doing an awful lot of practising with the bathroom scales until I was confident that I could apply a tamping force of 10Kgs +/- 2Kgs. Every now and then Ill drag the scales back out just to check that I am still working within that ballpark.

Some people like the PF to be level with the benchtop to make it easier to achieve a level tamp, others (like myself) prefer to use the top of the Tamper itself to determine when the tamp is level. Anyway, which-ever is the method you prefer, its a good idea to try and make the tamp as level as is reasonable to do so. In my case, a completed tamp usually ends up with the top of the coffee puck finishing up about 4-5mm from the top edge of the basket. You dont need to get too stuck on how level you make it though, so long as its not 10-12mm on one side and 1-2mm on the other.

With Tamper firmly in hand, and the handle of the PF secured in the other, start tamping down on the coffee with gentle pressure (about 3-4Kgs) using a gentle rocking motion both front to back and from side to side.... this will ensure that if any voids were present, they will be displaced by the motion of the coffee grinds in five general directions while applying this gentle pressure. Remove the tamper and gently tap the sides of the PF while tilting the PF over in a kind of circular motion at the same time. This will remove any loose grounds from the lip of the basket, the PF Locking Lugs and where-ever else these little suckers find their way into.

Now, for the Tamp Proper.... With the PF handle firmly secured again, apply the Tamper to the coffee puck using the same gentle rocking motion of the tamper but this time, with the finishing tamping force applied (in my case, 8-12 Kgs). This only takes a few seconds but at the end, the finished tamp should be reasonably level. Now, its just a quick wipe over the rim of the basket to remove any remaining errant grounds, lock the PF into the Group and pull your shot. No "pre-fusion" is necessary, as has already been stated by someone earlier, this is only required for machines that are designed for this to occur, a Silvia is not so designed.

And that, is basically that. I guess it all comes down to practice, practice, practice in the end and each time you get a new machine, you need to learn how to drive it all over again. One thing I have found though, by using the "rocking" motion during the tamp, you can get away with using less force and finer grinds, so long as all other criteria are being met, ie 60ml double in 25-30 seconds, etc. This seems to produce shots with more body, and more, firmer crema... so it seems to be worth the effort in the end.

Hope some of this helps you out Judy and that it all makes some kind of sense to you. All the best and happy brewing.....

Mal.

[speleomike]

Re: Another newbie question

About water for the Silvia ....
I got myself a Brita water filter jug from K-Mart, its about $20. My last Krups developed scale and calciting up from hard water and I wish to have my Silvia last a long time. I just got mine a month ago. Here is what I do for filling it. I have a 1 litre jug under the spout used to catch drips, drain the tank etc. I take it and fill with water fro the tap then pour into the 1.5 litre Brita Jug. After a minute I have filtered water which I pour int the Silvia tank. I leave the tank inside the Silvia. That way Im using nice water for the coffee.
Mike

[fatboy_1999]

Re: Another newbie question

About water for the Silvia ....
I got myself a Brita water filter jug from K-Mart, its about $20. My last Krups developed scale and calciting up from hard water and I wish to have my Silvia last a long time. I just got mine a month ago. Here is what I do for filling it. I have a 1 litre jug under the spout used to catch drips, drain the tank etc. I take it and fill with water fro the tap then pour into the 1.5 litre Brita Jug. After a minute I have filtered water which I pour int the Silvia tank. I leave the tank inside the Silvia. That way Im using nice water for the coffee.
Mike

Mike,

I also have a Brita water jug and do a similar process. You still need to have a look at the Silvia tank every now and then because I have found that some scum will still develop near the bottom of the tank even when using only filtered water.

Brett.

[nunu]

Re: Another newbie question

I believe that FC stated somewhere that filter jugs will not stop the scaling process as the calcium is dissolved in the water. The filter jug does take care of unwanted larger particles however. You should clean your reservoir every so often, as you will get a buildup of mould. Same thing that turns the bottom of your toilet black.

[csutak40]

Re: Another newbie question

Judy,  youre probably right. I did a quick search last night whilst posting and got 2 pages in a row that quoted 30KGs of pressure. I think they were confusing it with 30lbs.

Heres a nifty gadget. Not cheap and not from AU, but interesting.
http://www.home-espresso.com/product/3006CL

Does look intresting, but Im not about to buy one  ;D

However, I have also found that if I make a coffee after a 30 minute warmup (and all is fine), leave the machine on and make another coffee 3 hours later, you REALLY need to cycle some water through before making your next coffee. Im talking about 300ml to totally empty the water in the boiler and let the machine heat the new water up. If I dont do this, I often get issues with the pour being radically different to the last one even though the grind/tamp is the same.

Thats probably what happened

[csutak40]

Re: Another newbie question

Re: the splashing problem when flushing out the Group.... I found a plastic mug at Woollies that was the perfect size to fit neatly over the Group Head with the PF removed. Just hold it so that the Group Shroud is immersed into the mug about an inch or so and then flush away. Not a drop escapes, guaranteed ;D..

;D I will have to keep my eye out for a cup.  I tested it with all of mine, they are either too tall or too short  >  I have a plastic sheet thingy for my microwave, I now put that between the two as a shield  :-X

About tamping.... there are more stories posted about this particular subject than most others but what Ive found works for me is as follows:

I always grind a couple of grams extra coffee than I know will fit into the basket. I fill up the basket until the coffee is just proud of the rim and then tap lightly on the bench a few times until this settles. I then add the remainder of the ground coffee which finishes up as a slightly heaped mound. This is then moved around the basket with the edge of the plastic dosing spoon that comes with the machine, until there are no voids or gaps visible on the surface. The excess is then gently swept off into the knock-box.

Time for tamping now. I must admit to doing an awful lot of practising with the bathroom scales until I was confident that I could apply a tamping force of 10Kgs +/- 2Kgs. Every now and then Ill drag the scales back out just to check that I am still working within that ballpark.

Some people like the PF to be level with the benchtop to make it easier to achieve a level tamp, others (like myself) prefer to use the top of the Tamper itself to determine when the tamp is level. Anyway, which-ever is the method you prefer, its a good idea to try and make the tamp as level as is reasonable to do so. In my case, a completed tamp usually ends up with the top of the coffee puck finishing up about 4-5mm from the top edge of the basket. You dont need to get too stuck on how level you make it though, so long as its not 10-12mm on one side and 1-2mm on the other.

With Tamper firmly in hand, and the handle of the PF secured in the other, start tamping down on the coffee with gentle pressure (about 3-4Kgs) using a gentle rocking motion both front to back and from side to side.... this will ensure that if any voids were present, they will be displaced by the motion of the coffee grinds in five general directions while applying this gentle pressure. Remove the tamper and gently tap the sides of the PF while tilting the PF over in a kind of circular motion at the same time. This will remove any loose grounds from the lip of the basket, the PF Locking Lugs and where-ever else these little suckers find their way into.

Now, for the Tamp Proper.... With the PF handle firmly secured again, apply the Tamper to the coffee puck using the same gentle rocking motion of the tamper but this time, with the finishing tamping force applied (in my case, 8-12 Kgs). This only takes a few seconds but at the end, the finished tamp should be reasonably level. Now, its just a quick wipe over the rim of the basket to remove any remaining errant grounds, lock the PF into the Group and pull your shot. No "pre-fusion" is necessary, as has already been stated by someone earlier, this is only required for machines that are designed for this to occur, a Silvia is not so designed.

And that, is basically that. I guess it all comes down to practice, practice, practice in the end and each time you get a new machine, you need to learn how to drive it all over again. One thing I have found though, by using the "rocking" motion during the tamp, you can get away with using less force and finer grinds, so long as all other criteria are being met, ie 60ml double in 25-30 seconds, etc. This seems to produce shots with more body, and more, firmer crema... so it seems to be worth the effort in the end.

Hope some of this helps you out Judy and that it all makes some kind of sense to you. All the best and happy brewing.....

Mal.

Well, firstly I have a feeling that the tamp the guy "threw in" with the machine (it is a stainless steel concave one) isnt the right size.  It keeps making a ridge thing at the edges (sort of creeps up the sides).  When I tap it after the first tamp, it shakes loose, but re-forms again after the next one.  I have a Pullman tamp on order, so I will see if that makes a difference.  I got the scales out again today, and this time I put it on the bench, not the floor, because, being short, my arm isnt exactly 90º to the tamp, so I thought that I may get less on the bench.  However, I did get to about  13kg, so I must be doing it right.

[csutak40]

Re: Another newbie question

About water for the Silvia ....
I got myself a Brita water filter jug from K-Mart, its about $20. My last Krups developed scale and calciting up from hard water and I wish to have my Silvia last a long time. I just got mine a month ago. Here is what I do for filling it. I have a 1 litre jug under the spout used to catch drips, drain the tank etc. I take it and fill with water fro the tap then pour into the 1.5 litre Brita Jug. After a minute I have filtered water which I pour int the Silvia tank. I leave the tank inside the Silvia. That way Im using nice water for the coffee.
Mike

I have a plumbed in water filter, so that should be OK. I know I will still have to clean the tank and descale it every so often.

[robusto]

Re: Another newbie question

Hi Judy, sometimes too much information is as dangerous as too little! But I understand your pain trying to separate the wheat from the chaff of coffee knowledge.

1. A wet puck means insufficient coffee in the portafilter. Your Silvia basket is full when it has approx 18 grams -- not 14 as universally accepted for a double shot.

2. The water tank should stay in -- every time you remove it, the hoses come out, probably spilling their water everywhere, and then need to be re-primed by running the pump. Simply put water into the tank in situ.

3. Coffee cleaner and coffee descaler -- some proprietary brands do both.
A coffee cleaner (of its own) is a strong detergent which removes the brown stains left over time by coffee oils. These stains not only discolour equipment, they can badly affect the taste.

Descaler, on the other hand, removes calcium and lime which builds up over time, especially in the boiler, most especially over the heating element. A badly scaled element will then be insulated from the water.
Scale is rusty-coloured. If you have an electric jug, that "rust" over the bottom and over the element is scale.

Citric acid, easily available from any supermarket, is a cheap and effective descaler.

Brita filters DO CLAIM to descale. Charcoal removes larger impurities,while dissolved ones like calcium and lime are filtered through ion exchange. I always use Brita-filtered water.

4. Overnight pre-heating. A waste of time and electricity. It takes about 30 minutes for the entire machine to warm sufficiently to retain its heat. Leaving it on further wont and cant heat it any more.
Feel the cup warmer. Is it warm? Put your finger (quickly) on the group. Is it really hot? If yes to both questions, your machine is ready for use.

5. Running a blank shot to pre-heat group. Put your empty cup under the portafilter, press the brew switch and let about 30 mls or so of water into it. The hot water will keep your cup warm while you grind. Wipe the basket and lip dry (a tissue is good), grind into it, put back into group.
Empty the cup, and brew into it.



Hope this helps
Robusto

[csutak40]

Re: Another newbie question

Thank you for that. The last few days, I have been following this
<http://www.coffeekid.com/archived/rancilio/cheatsilvia> which does seem to work, but also seems to waste an awful lot of water. Your version certainly seems a lot simpler and less water wasted. I have always (years ago with my Gaggia) and with my auto Saeco let some water out of the group and the steam wand (well, not the group with the Saeco :-)) but this version seems to waste an awful lot. :-) I will try it your way next time. In the morning, it certainly gets about 30 minutes of warming, put it on first thing, then off to the shower etc.

Also, I must have figured out the right amount of coffee, I no longer get a wet puck - following some of the clever advice here must have done it. :-) Thank you everyone. Next thing: roasting. Still have some roasted coffee left, finishing that first :-)

PS Another question. Sometimes the Rocky seems to go on strike! It stops grinding. I panic (thinking about all the splashes it got the first couple of days :-)) but letting go of the button and then trying again seems to wake it up. Should I worry?

[AndyCJ]

Re: Another newbie question

Judy, thats a common Rocky problem. You should read the "Rocky skips a beat" thread here:
http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1104646323/3#3