Caffè Latte, not on the menu

[Robstar]

Without getting all technical, one would define a caffe latte as being a flat white but more milky. Well, more milk to coffee at the very least, being served in a larger cup than the flat white.

At least this is of course my assumption.

Recently, Ive been graced with designing a menu, and the question came up.. should I offer Flat White as well as Caffé Latté; this may seem silly, why would anyone ever ask the question. There is potentially more money to be had, as most people who order latte on a regular basis dont order flat whites and I may potentially be ruling out the entire demographic that always do, flawlessly order a latte over a flat white.

But .. I still asked the question, to be different, to break a trend, Im not sure. But for fellow Baristas and cafe go-ers, give your opinion, what would you think if you walked into a coffee shop only to find Caffe Latte not an option. =P

Regards,
Robstar

[TC]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Without getting all technical, one would define a caffe latte as being a flat white but more milky. Well, more milk to coffee at the very least, being served in a larger cup than the flat white.

At least this is of course my assumption.

Hi Rob,

Last I heard and taught, the Melbourne standard was Latte in a glass with up to 1cm microfoam. Flat white in cup (preferably not bucket) with no more than 1cm microfoam. Some cafes choose less on the FW and thats fine...

Good luck

2mcm

[redzone121]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

I only ever make coffee for people at home but often make a caffe latte for those that prefer a bigger drink. I would assume you would be missing out on potential sales by giving it a miss :-/

Chris

[muppet_man67]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

As Chris said, In melbourne it has nothing to do with strength or volume of milk. Customers assume a latte will come in a glass, or at least a tall shaped cup with about 1cm of microfoam. A flat white can have up to 1cm although I think many cutomers would assume that a flat white should have very little microfoam.

You can debate interpretations of beverages and compare how they serve them overseas, however for me I think its easier to go with the flow then cut against the grain. If people know they like coffee stronger then they will tell you and order to suit. Likewise they will do the same of they want a weak muggacino.

[Coffee2Di4]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

As a customer, I would order it anyway - I generally dont read a menu in a cafe anyway because I order a latte as a standard. If the person making the coffee looked at me strangely or said that we dont offer Lattes, I would walk out on the premise that they obviously didnt know what they were doing and all they served was a Cuppof Cino to the less discerning customer.

To me, a standard coffee menu in any cafe would consist of:-

1. Espresso
2. Cappuccino
3. Latte
4. Flat White

If the cafe was more upmarket and actually knew what they were doing, they would also offer ristrettos, piccolos, etc.

Why so much of the restriction on items on your menu? If its space, why dont you not offer a Caffe Latte and instead offer a Latte allowing you a bit more room on your board but not putting your credibility, from a discerning customers standpoint, at risk?

BTW - to me, a flat white is what I ask for if I know the people making the coffee (ie; our cafe on Base) insist on putting 4cm of foam in a latte, and that way I know Im getting better value for money rather than getting ripped off by only getting half a take away cup of coffee and the rest frothy bubbles - I kid you not! But there are a lot of people out there that do drink flat whites because they dont like foam at all.

Cheers
Di

[GregWormald]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Since the definitions of the different coffee drinks easily fall into the daffynition category, my suggestion would be to offer your own.

Greg

[Robstar]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Given Chriss comment, I understood what he meant, as of course I have my assumption in how I serve them both, as theyve been clearly stated in the thread. Yet getting off-topic with that.

Hoyks, obviously the tone in which you write words does translate very well via text. However I have to just say, that its not so much a "Hi, help me build a coffee menu, I dont know what Im talking about" or a sign of much restriction. (this actually made me raise an eyebrow, as I only mentioned a latte, yet you seem to think Im restricting on a much larger scale)

It was put best by Muppit, an attempt to cut against the grain considering the similarities between the two, the misconceptions in the general public of the two and the one apparent factor that a latte is served in a glass. Which will obviously hold more volume then one of my ACF tulip cups.

For the record, I am a merely discerning if the difference between the two, is large enough to make an outrageous decision. External factors, ex. double shot, extra hot, etc, etc.. have no relevance to this topic at hand. If a customer asked for a quad-shot latte, I would most obviously not say no in a real world situation. :P

However, given certain simple approaches, it was more of a vague outlook that the latte is the same as the flat white, only one has more milk the other and is served in a clear glass, so you can just sit tight with a well made flat white that wont dissapoint, because you had a bad experience at the other place down the road.

But this reasoning, once I put it down, doesnt seem very friendly for the customer, limiting their options (as I would have no latte glasses sitting on top of my Synesso). I guess a conclusion can be drawn at the end of the day, that it is too outrageous to pull lattes off the list of choices in a coffee shop, simply because it doesnt take that much effort to just make a latte.

Listen to me, talking to myself almost. :

[blanyon]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

The general public have no idea of how a coffee is made (I still get can you make a cup of chino with that?) and they dont care. People are used to ordering something and if you take it off the menu (even if it is almost exactly the same) they will not come back as they cant get what they want. You may have a very mature market where people understand that there is the same amount of coffee in a flat white as a latte, me I am dealing with the "if it is big then its good value" crowd and cause everyone else has everything on the menu so must I. Am I educating my customers where I can, absolutely, but I am in the business to make money first and educate second not the other way round. Anyway that is a bit long winded and I hope I made some good points.

[Robstar]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Understood you well and clear Moto!

I think that really at the end of the day, not everyone is savvy as you and I, and assuming that the next customer is, would see a loss in profit.

[Coffee2Di4]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Thats sort of the point I was trying to make - sorry if it didnt come over that well, Robstar.

I was responding from a general consumers point of view with your invitation of

...and cafe go-ers, give your opinion, what would you think if you walked into a coffee shop only to find Caffe Latte not an option. =P

Regards,
Robstar

I wasnt trying to design a menu for you, but more point that my expectations as a customer and what I would expect to see on a menu board in a cafe. What I was trying to say was I would think it extremely odd, and a little disconcerting, if I was standing there waiting for my coffee to be made, glanced up above the counter to the menu board, and a Latte wasnt an option.

As a customer - and even now that I am more experienced - to me, a flat white denotes very little or no foam, whereas a latte has about 1cm of foam on it. Its not about what its served up in or the size of the cup/glass its served in to me as a consumer, but more about what is served to me. You could give me a latte in a glass, but if it had chocolate powder on top, I would assume that you had made me a cappuccino because the perception is that cappuccinos come with chocolate powder, not lattes. Yes, we know thats not the only difference, but Joe Public mostly doesnt.

Okay, I think Im talking myself around in circles, sorry, and not making a lot of sense.

What it boils down to is, it is the consumer that pays at the end of the day - if they want both a flat white and a latte on the menu board, is it worth being different to possibly losing that paying customer?

[scoota_gal]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Robstar...one important lesson I have learnt working in this industry is that you really have to give the customer what they want.

Everything else is bluff!  ;D

No, seriously, it constantly grates on me how city people denigrate the fact that out here we sell 16oz coffees. But I defy any one to come out here and tell my customers as of next week, were taking them off the menu...and then stick around... :

What Im trying to say is...

Weve given our customers a choice. They have a choice to buy a huge coffee in a 16oz or they can choose to have a smaller one in a 12oz. And theyre happy to make the choice for themselves. Mostly, theyre adults were serving after all!

I think that if you can include the latte and the flat white, youll keep all your customers happy. Its not about how its served, its about what they want, IMHO. (in my humble opinion but we all know what opinions are like!  )

Of course, seeing as I order a flat white (or "just a flat white" at certain outlets  ) I wouldnt care one way or another that latte was not up on the menu. So, having said that, your discerning coffee snobs will know what they want to drink regardless of what is up on the menu, its your newcomers to the shop that drink what everyone else drinks (a latte it seems!) who will be put off...

Though, Ive always wanted to have a menu in a cafe that has...

Large
Small
White
Black

On the board... ;D and then people can figure it out for themselves...

[Dennis]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu


I agree (and serve it) the way 2mcm has suggested.

Though, Ive always wanted to have a menu in a cafe that has...

Large
Small
White
Black

On the board... Grin and then people can figure it out for themselves... Wink

I love that! 8-) Though mine are "regular" and "bigger".

[Thundergod]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

I drink flat whites so wouldnt care if you didnt offer cafe lattes.
But my drink had better not come with too much foam, even if its not served in a glass.

As for milk ratios, my visitors dont get a choice because my glasses and cups are both 200ml.

[yeeza]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

hmm, if I got a flat white with a 1cm head, Id take it back and say "I didnt ask for a cap". I reckon flat whites have to be exactly that - flat! .5cm foam MAX, if not less (half that again). If any barista at work sends out a flat white with a fat head on it, I pull it, do it again. basic.

[Martial_Monkey]

Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

Up here in Brissy your usual "coffee shop punter" doesnt really know the difference between a flat white and a cap except for the cap has chocolate on top (uhhh... duhhhh).

I really wish we could get over putting chocolate powder on our caps.

As for flat white and latte, Id prefer to serve the flat white in an acf (or equiv.) 160mL cup and the latte in a 200-210 mL glass. The advantage of a glass to pour into is that it gives you immediate feedback on how much head you have on the beverage/how well you are splitting the jugs etc. and can generally help with consistency (but I still prefer drinking from a ceramic cup ).