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  • #31
    Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

    Originally posted by 5B41574242360 link=1253865679/25#25 date=1254347706

    maybe its time to stop looking at coffee as a cheap caffeine hit, and start viewing it as a premium product.
    I actually dislike it when people start to look at coffee that way.  Coffee is not a premium product in any way, nor is wine for that matter.  That some people are trying to turn coffee into a premium product, much the same way some misdirected people did with wine, is an unfortunate fact of the world we live in.  The nice thing about the wine industry is that Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and Chile are now producing some good wines, thus restoring a sense of balance to that industry.  More people being able to enjoy a decent quality wine at a reasonable price has been good for the industry.  Coffee can go down the premium/over-priced road if it wants in the short term, but it will eventually have to correct itself at some point.  It can avoid the bursting bubble by just staying reasonably priced all along and expanding the number of converts.  

    Coffee is not nearly as expensive as coffee shops would have us believe, its just that its trendy right now.

    I stopped going to my previous coffee shop because I disliked their prices.  I found a place on a less expensive street that has very good coffee, but at an affordable price.  The coffee is of comparable quality, the renovations arent as fancy, the neighborhood isnt as trendy, and the prices are much better.  I also drink more coffee at home, and I have a very portable AeroPress-and-Porlex combination for when Im travelling. I refuse to be overcharged for a cup of good coffee.

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    • #32
      Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

      I think there are a few different things to be addressed here.

      Firstly, average café serving average rubbish: I dont care. I dont go there, I dont drink their stuff. Why do they charge $3/cup? Because they are running a business that needs to make money!! They need to cover more than just the cost of whatever coffee they happen to be using, and the milk they flood it with. They have to cover wages, insurance, rent, electricity and bazillion other things. Dont like paying that much, dont go there, but I dont begrudge people trying to make a living.

      As for the coffee as premium product; well, I happen to really enjoy the La Esmeraldas, Beloyas, Arichas, and many of the various Cup of Excellence coffees. I will continue to seek them out and enjoy them My attitude to wine is similar; I drink less, but better quality. I dont drink wine for the alcohol any more than I drink coffee for the caffeine.

      For me, its all about whats in the cup (or glass).

      Its interesting to note, as far as going down the premium product path, that the introduction of CoE programs has seen the general price of coffee in the participating countries rise. Bad? Not for the farmers!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

        Im less thrilled with CoE than what most other people seem to be.  I think, in the long run, it will be worse for the coffee industry than better.  Its okay to pay farmers for their labor, its not okay to pay them huge amounts of money just because their coffee won an award (and I say that as someone who has family in the farming sector; I would hate for my father to be getting a ridiculous amount of money for his produce on the backs of overcharging customers.  Fortunately, my fathers product isnt trendy).

        I avoid CoE winners for two reasons.  One, Im not the biggest fan of acidity, and the CoE is trying to heap great praise on coffees with acidity.  Two, CoE coffees are overpriced relative to the work put into the product.  So, in the same way that I avoid overpriced T-shirts that have a fancy logo on them, I avoid overpriced coffee with a CoE logo.  That doesnt mean I drink bad coffee anymore than it means I wear crappy T-shirts.  I look for quality at a reasonable price.  Ill look for good coffee that, for whatever reason, is below the radar.

        Its the same for coffee shops.  I dont need any place trendy.  I dont need expensive renovations.  I dont need fancy equipment.  I just need a good cup of coffee at a reasonable.

        You also managed to stumble across another of my pet peeves: La Esmeralda Geisha.  Its a good cup of coffee, no doubt, but Ive had coffee I liked better--and at a much, much cheaper price.  Whats going to happen when more farmers start planting Geisha and the price comes down to a reasonable level?  Coffee shops and roasters are going to look pretty stupid trying to justify their exorbitant prices of a few years prior?  Its also going to make the next coffee sensation tougher to sell because consumers will remember how they overpaid with Geisha.

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        • #34
          Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

          Well, clearly I am just completely bamboozled by trendy marketing hype :

          As someone who drinks a lot of pourover, I am a huge fan of acidity and clarity in the cup. Though I have had awesome shots of CoE coffees aswell.

          And as for La Esmeralda; still the best cup Ive ever had, just quietly.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

            Coffee----Wine

            Maybe.

            Ill happily pay $15 or more for a nice bottle of wine, and as the price goes up usually the quality does too.
            Ill happily pay $3 or more for shot of nice coffee, but there is no relation between price and quality.

            I wont pay $15 for cask quality wine, and anybody who tries that trick is going broke fast cause the wine-drinking public is generally educated enough to know that a difference exists and can often tell.

            I wont pay $3 for instant quality coffee, and most places get away with it cause the coffee-drinking public is so poorly educated that they neither know a difference exists or can taste it. Hence there is a dearth of competition for my coffee money on a daily basis.

            The sponsors get my "coffee" money--in large chunks.

            Greg

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            • #36
              Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

              Originally posted by 112433310139243B373A32560 link=1253865679/34#34 date=1254393968

              Ill happily pay $15 or more for a nice bottle of wine, and as the price goes up usually the quality does too.
              Ill happily pay $3 or more for shot of nice coffee, but there is no relation between price and quality.

              Good point Greg. Personally Id add that there is CURRENTLY little relation between price and quality for a nice coffee. I for one hope that this changes!

              Originally posted by 3B21372222560 link=1253865679/33#33 date=1254386752
              Well, clearly I am just completely bamboozled by trendy marketing hype
              I guess Im another one whos palate has been fooled by some clearly awesome trendy marketing guff. I dont see how creating a Premium end of the market for coffee can be a bad thing, especially if there is a market there willing to accept it. If you dont buy into the CoE program, thats all fine. Personally, i dont see how scoring a product and then letting the market set a price for it is a bad thing. Thats what a free market does, sets a price that consumers (some, not all) are prepared to tolerate.

              For me, coffee, and wine, are not simply a price driven purchase. Nor do I care about the renovations, suburb, trendiness or lack thereof of either product. Im after an experience for my palate, that is my main purchasing driver, with price becoming a consideration once Ive made a decision about what flavours Id like to experience on that occasion.

              Originally posted by 053A392104373F38560 link=1253865679/32#32 date=1254381725
              Whats going to happen when more farmers start planting Geisha and the price comes down to a reasonable level?
              Can I ask, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about farming ... If you, me, a farmer in Vietnam and the existing Hacienda La Esmeralda farm all make new Geisha plantings at exactly the same time, are we actually going to end up producing the same product? I may be over simplifying, but surely terroir, experience in caring for and harvesting the crop, as well as processing the final raw product have as much, if not more influence on whats in the cup as the varietal that was grown in the first place? I seriously doubt that more Geisha plantings = more La Esmeralda level/style coffees.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                Youre not oversimplifying. Although... Beloya, Aricha, IMV and Michele are all just Yirgacheffes.

                Okay, SlowRain, you dont like highly acidic coffees.

                Originally posted by 16292A3217242C2B450 link=1253865679/32#32 date=1254381725
                the CoE is trying to heap great praise on coffees with acidity
                The CoE program is actually designed to score coffee according to a myriad of factors, not just acidity, and the scoring is done by people with awesome palettes. Acidity is part of coffee, and some of the Brazil and Guat CoE coffee Ive drunk this year is much more balanced towards high pH than low pH. How many CoE coffees have you consumed this year?

                Originally posted by 16292A3217242C2B450 link=1253865679/32#32 date=1254381725
                Its the same for coffee shops.I dont need any place trendy.I dont need expensive renovations.I dont need fancy equipment.I just need a good cup of coffee at a reasonable.
                You seem to be implying that the rest of us do, specifically directed at the previous poster. While some places in the city are by nature trendy (they exist in the context of their business customers, so things like branding, fancy equipment & fancy fit out are relevant to their main audience, I see Michelle (& Hazchem) most often sitting on some benches, leaning on a brick wall or some cheap metal blinds. The cafe they like to frequent doesnt even have tables! It does have fancy equipment, but the owner has chosen that, not the CS member. It doesnt have anywhere safe for people who bring kids in...

                The difference between you and Michelle, I think, is that youre looking for good coffee, reasonable price while Michelle is looking for a sensory experience and is prepared to pay for it.

                Originally posted by 16292A3217242C2B450 link=1253865679/32#32 date=1254381725
                Two, CoE coffees are overpriced relative to the work put into the product.
                Whys that? Some may by lucky, but coffee takes on the flavours of the terroir in a way that, for example, leeks dont (sorry I picked a trendy vegetable). If you head out to Tanzania, for example, most people arent really earning a living, theyre earning just enough to keep living. Compare this to the Direct Trade & CoE models, where collectives are getting together and buying stuff to benefit the community through the profits of exporting their product through the newer mechanisms

                eg. http://www.oromiacoffeeunion.org/Improving_Lives.html

                Originally posted by 16292A3217242C2B450 link=1253865679/32#32 date=1254381725
                Ill look for good coffee that, for whatever reason, is below the radar.
                Ill stop buying the Sidamo Oromia because its been at the fancy Dancing Goat Cafe, shall I?

                The reason coffees get onto our radar is relationships with the importers, the roasters and the brewers. Seeking their second grade coffee in case you get an extraction you like, seems a bit like trying to avoid the cloud and still hoping you get rained upon.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                  Come on people...the answer is home roast and a take away cup for trips out (or a presso) - a fraction of the price of shop bought and the quality! 8-)

                  Cheers

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                    Originally posted by 4964656E74697479000 link=1253865679/36#36 date=1254447777
                    I see Michelle (& Hazchem) most often sitting on some benches, leaning on a brick wall or some cheap metal blinds. The cafe they like to frequent doesnt even have tables! It does have fancy equipment, but the owner has chosen that, not the CS member. It doesnt have anywhere safe for people who bring kids in...

                    The difference between you and Michelle, I think, is that youre looking for good coffee, reasonable price while Michelle is looking for a sensory experience and is prepared to pay for it.
                    True dat!

                    And whaddya mean nowhere safe for kids? Zekes had several roasting lessons, and is well on the way to becoming a spro snob!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                      Originally posted by 4A75766E4B787077190 link=1253865679/32#32 date=1254381725
                      Coffee shops and roasters are going to look pretty stupid trying to justify their exorbitant prices of a few years prior?
                      Exorbitant? BBB in Melbourne was selling Esmeralda through their clover for $4 a cup. Given the clover is labour intensive compared with espresso and the cost of the beans theyre running through it (and the lingering cravings I still get some 6 months on) Id say thats not a fair statement.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                        My comments above were not directed at anyone in particular, and it would be misreading to assume so.  Rather, I was talking about coffees current role in society.  Coffee is trendy right now--very trendy.

                        My CoE coffees from this year were probably limited to about half a dozen or so simply because they are too expensive.

                        As far as my comments on the CoE and acidity: Ive never heard of acidity in coffee until recently.  That it wasnt mentioned before, but now gets hyped a great deal, leads me to believe it is a trend as well.  On that matter, Im prepared to wait ten years to see if non-acidic coffees start to dominate competitions once people get a little tired of drinking ones higher in acidity.  It think its more indicative of the current judges on the CoE program than anything.

                        As far as Im aware, the early results of other farmers planting Geisha has been positive.

                        The reason why Im down on the CoE and peoples near veneration of CoE coffees is because it creates an artificially high price.  Imagine a country that doesnt have a CoE program.  A responsible roaster is buying coffee from a farmer, and the farmer is being well paid.  The roasters customers are all enjoying the coffee from that farm in that country at a reasonable price.  Enter the CoE program.  The coffee wins the CoE for that country that year.  The price of the coffee goes up.  The roaster has to pay more, and the roasters customers now have to pay more.  The farmer has not changed his farming or processing methods, nor has he incurred any extra expenses or worked any harder.  What value has the CoE brought to the customers?  The farmer gets more money, but he was being well paid before and he hasnt had to lift an extra finger.  The roaster can (try to) pass the cost on to the customers.  But how has the CoE program benefited the coffee drinkers who were buying that coffee regularly before?  Simply put, the CoE hasnt brought one bit of value to that particular coffee, theyve just added hype.  Theyve created a trend.  Why would anyone, as a regular drinker of that coffee before all the hype, want to pay more for it when none of the fundamentals have changed, only the publicity?  How can any reasonable person see additional value in the new, higher price, when absolutely nothing has changed?  Now take that same example and apply it to all of the CoE winners out there, and youll see what Im getting at.

                        People can buy whatever coffee they want at whatever price they want.  Its a free market in that regard.  Just dont make me pay more for my coffee.  I also hope that when Geisha comes down in price, all the people who were willing to plop down $10-$15 dollars per cup continue to do so when others are plopping down $5 because, after all, the coffee is worth it, isnt it?  I suggest a two-tier system: those who are looking for a good cup of coffee at a reasonable price should be able to get it, and those who are willing to pay a little more for a sensory experience should then be charged double for that same cup of coffee.  It seems fair, dont you think?  Everyone wins because I get my good coffee at a reasonable price and people for whom price is not so important get their sensory experience, and the farmer and roaster still get a reasonable price.

                        In case others havent noticed it, take a look at any financial planning book or website and see how they recommend saving money.  I also saw a survey recently about the top 10 (15?) things people hate overpaying for.  Take a look at the original post in this thread and most of the subsequent replies.  What will you notice?  Coffee pricing is an issue, we cant deny that.  At what point are we going to start doing something about it?  When coffee consumption drops?  When people have been driven to  alternatives?  Or, rather than trying to justify it (read: do nothing), maybe--just maybe--we should try addressing the issue--and sooner rather than later.

                        I think the idea of taking an AeroPress and a ceramic-burr hand grinder to work is a great idea.  Im even looking into home roasting.  Those are just two good ways for a person to insulate themselves against rising prices.  Cutting down on consumption is another.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                          Originally posted by 2C2E222A2A24233E4D0 link=1253865679/39#39 date=1254452664

                          Exorbitant? BBB in Melbourne was selling Esmeralda through their clover for $4 a cup. Given the clover is labour intensive compared with espresso and the cost of the beans theyre running through it (and the lingering cravings I still get some 6 months on) Id say thats not a fair statement.
                          See, thats exactly what I mean.  Why does Australia have better pricing when the rest of the world is overcharging?  What are the Australians doing right that everyone else is screwing up?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                            Actually the reason I think BBB had Esmeralda for such a cheap price comes down to Australians simply not being willing to pay for brewed coffee, but thats a whole other soapbox rant, but I do think my point still stands, Esmeralda, here in Australia was being sold too cheaply.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                              Originally posted by 7B44475F7A494146280 link=1253865679/30#30 date=1254371210
                              Michelle wrote on Yesterday at 7:55am:
                              maybe its time to stop looking at coffee as a cheap caffeine hit, and start viewing it as a premium product.

                              I actually dislike it when people start to look at coffee that way.Coffee is not a premium product in any way, nor is wine for that matter.That some people are trying to turn coffee into a premium product, much the same way some misdirected people did with wine, is an unfortunate fact of the world we live in.The nice thing about the wine industry is that Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and Chile are now producing some good wines, thus restoring a sense of balance to that industry.More people being able to enjoy a decent quality wine at a reasonable price has been good for the industry.
                              You are entitled to your view, but please do not preach mediocrity. Why cant coffee be a premium product? To say that wine is not a premium product shows a complete misunderstanding of the product and industry. Good quality grapes are expensive to grow in countries like you mention. Skill, knowledge and experience is then needed to produce fine wine from them. People invest huge sums of money, time and effort to produce a product that is prized by many. These people expect and should be rewarded for their efforts. If you strive to produce a better product, you want it to stand out from the others. You want recognition for your efforts, and you also should receive monetary rewards.
                              You say that Australia is now producing good wines????? Australia always has. Good wine has always been available at a good price.
                              I think you mean good wine is now available at a cheap price.
                              Fine wine has always been made here, people just did not have the palette or the knowledge to appreciate it. Wine that I was buying for under $20 a bottle, in the Barossa Valley and McLaren Vale 20 years ago has increased in price, but then so has the cost of living. However, I still continue to buy and enjoy it, and others like it. The fact that they are now well over $50 a bottle is irrelevant. The product is still excellent and made with the same care and precision as it was years ago. Today however it is recognised by many for its quality, and demand for the wine is high.
                              What has changed is that there has been an increase in production of grapes around the world. This has led to an oversupply in the market and there has been a lot of good wine available at cheap prices. This has not been good for the industry, only for the consumer.
                              However the great wines keep their value and increase in price as you would expect. If you want good wine at a cheap price then no doubt you turn to countries that have cheap labour, land etc to produce it. This does not promote excellence. The same concept also applies to coffee, it is a lot more expensive to produce in Australia then it is in countries where labour is cheap. The growers here try to differentiate their product and justify the price by striving for excellence. People appreciate their efforts and are willing to pay a premium for their efforts.
                              You on the other hand are advocating standards that benefit yourself only. People in third world countries are entitled to receive increased monetary gains for a better product. They have families to feed!
                              No one is forcing you to pay a premium for any product. If you are not willing to pay extra for a good product then do not expect to earn more money at work, for increased effort.
                              Striving for excellence in any field is vital. Smart farmers put in extra effort to produce a superior product. They deserve to be rewarded. Smart retailers understand their market, if they find a niche and gain from it, then they deserve the gains. Copying those people by providing a similar product at a cheaper price simply proves that you do not. Why should you benefit simply because you sell a cheaper product?
                              Thankfully today, people are willing to pay a premium for better products and fine food. Let us continue to advocate this as it benefits everyone.
                              There is a cost for everything. Understand it, but do not begrudge it.
                              If you think that you can make a living selling cheap cups of coffee then do it. Prove you are better than the rest!




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                              • #45
                                Re: $4 coffees in Brunswick st ???

                                Originally posted by 07383B2306353D3A540 link=1253865679/40#40 date=1254452676
                                The reason why Im down on the CoE and peoples near veneration of CoE coffees is because it creates an artificially high price.  Imagine a country that doesnt have a CoE program.  A responsible roaster is buying coffee from a farmer, and the farmer is being well paid.  The roasters customers are all enjoying the coffee from that farm in that country at a reasonable price.  Enter the CoE program.  The coffee wins the CoE for that country that year.  The price of the coffee goes up.  The roaster has to pay more, and the roasters customers now have to pay more.  The farmer has not changed his farming or processing methods, nor has he incurred any extra expenses or worked any harder.  What value has the CoE brought to the customers?  The farmer gets more money, but he was being well paid before and he hasnt had to lift an extra finger.  The roaster can (try to) pass the cost on to the customers.  But how has the CoE program benefited the coffee drinkers who were buying that coffee regularly before?  Simply put, the CoE hasnt brought one bit of value to that particular coffee, theyve just added hype.  Theyve created a trend.  Why would anyone, as a regular drinker of that coffee before all the hype, want to pay more for it when none of the fundamentals have changed, only the publicity?  How can any reasonable person see additional value in the new, higher price, when absolutely nothing has changed?  Now take that same example and apply it to all of the CoE winners out there, and youll see what Im getting at.
                                Now picture: farm B notices that farm A got such a recommendation (COE or equiv.) and as a result demand (and naturally price as it is a finite product) increased for farm A. Farm B is struggling but they decide that winning such an award would increase sales for them so they lift their game and start really caring about the product they produce (making a product that is much better quality) and win the next year. Farm A now has competition and has to continue to keep their quality high (no resting on their laurels) to keep demand (and price up). Now multiply this by thousands of farms and co-ops

                                It is worth it for the farm because they are being paid for a better quality product. True some farms my "luck out" but they wont continue to year after year.

                                How is this not good for producers.

                                How would you feel if you produced a product that is lightyears ahead of the competition (and worked hard at making it that way) but you couldnt charge more then the competitors for no apparent reason. [smiley=huh.gif]

                                I dont know of one roaster that exclusively sells COE coffees so the answer is quite simple:
                                if you dont want to pay a premium to get a (more) premium product then dont. It is possible that the roaster doesnt know what they are doing and is butchering the roast - simple dont buy it. 8-)

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