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Third wave coffee in The Age

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  • #16
    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    No Dont tell the general community where all the good coffee is. then we willnot be able to go there as these places will be too crowdned! We snobs know about coffee and I think we shoul keep it to our selves. Dont let them take it to the rest of the world!

    ARRRRRRRRR no way Im keeping it tpo myself!
    Well I might consder sharing with my friends and family but if they tell anyone else I may be forces to eliminate them!

    ***Disclaimer** All commoents contained in this post contain sarcasim and were writen with toung in cheek.

    Regards
    Crisp Image

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    • #17
      Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

      As long as St Ali and all of its business ventures are able to keep up the extremely high standards that it is noted for, then I am all for the ‘third wave’ charge. Its one thing to have the best beans on sale but if you can’t fill all the new barista positions with highly trained and experienced personal then it would be a shame to see that drop in quality for quantity. It’s already hard enough to get super baristas and the ones who are super either open their own place or go into training.

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      • #18
        Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

        St. Ali are doing an AWESOME job!!

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        • #19
          Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

          Originally posted by 406F65784D010 link=1255337708/13#13 date=1255433133
          Third wave is such a stupid term
          ...and so last year.

          I think CoffeeSnobs home roasters are the 4th wave.

          Doing amazing coffee at home and having control of the variables during the roast/blend/rest.

          8-)

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          • #20
            Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

            Originally posted by 230C061B620 link=1255337708/18#18 date=1256042486
            Originally posted by 406F65784D010 link=1255337708/13#13 date=1255433133
            Third wave is such a stupid term
            ...and so last year.

            I think CoffeeSnobs home roasters are the 4th wave.

            Doing amazing coffee at home and having control of the variables during the roast/blend/rest.

            8-)
            Is it? It makes perfect sense to me so long as people dont try and be to specific about what it means.
            For me it just reflects a inquisitive exploration away from traditional roasting and brewing methods. With that comes a consumer appreciation of varietal and a view that no one brand of coffee is superior.

            The issue with the term "third wave" is that using it to describe a cafe or roaster just feels a bit wanky. Imo it cuts against the grain as the origin of the movement came with a shedding of ego, a view that we know very little, (therefore lets forget the "rules" and follow our senses) Also it boxes people into something when the whole point is to think outside the square.

            When a journalist describes it as also having fashion and lifestyle attached; (becuase the wank factor wasnt high enough already ) it makes many people cringe and want to disasociate themselves from the term.

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            • #21
              Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

              Is it such a stupid term? Sure theres a wank factor with it, but its easier than saying such and such a roaster/cafe is a "quality focussed business that seeks to use ethically traded coffee from microlots whenever possible" Third wave is much more succinct. Even if theres a wank factor with it.

              And declaring fourth wave would also seem a bit premature yet wouldnt it? I watched the St Ali segment on the morning show the other week and Sal was declaring coffee and food pairing as the fourth wave...cant really see it just yet myself. Not that food pairing is wrong, I just dont see it as another "wave"

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              • #22
                Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                Originally posted by 76747870707E7964170 link=1255337708/20#20 date=1256084679
                Is it such a stupid term? Sure theres a wank factor with it, but its easier than saying such and such a roaster/cafe is a "quality focussed business that seeks to use ethically traded coffee from microlots whenever possible" Third wave is much more succinct. Even if theres a wank factor with it.

                And declaring fourth wave would also seem a bit premature yet wouldnt it? I watched the St Ali segment on the morning show the other week and Sal was declaring coffee and food pairing as the fourth wave...cant really see it just yet myself. Not that food pairing is wrong, I just dont see it as another "wave"
                100% agree.

                The idea of 4th wave is premature. 3rd wave is still an infant movement, Ideas about pairing coffee with food etc are all just part of the exploration of coffee brewing and varietal that is 3rd wave.
                I dont think you can really claim further waves untill the accepted norm in cafes is to offer more then one blend/so of coffee. (not decaf)
                (imo the choice is what gets the consumer engaged which is also a crucial factor to the movement.)

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                • #23
                  Re: Third wave coffee in The Age


                  I would like to be a 3rd waver - Im just having a little trouble getting my hair to grow so that I can carefully comb it over my eyes. ;D

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                  • #24
                    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                    Whats with the fixed gear bicycles? Does it mean I am not welcome in a 3rd wave cafe with my 10speed racer?  lol

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                    • #25
                      Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                      Originally posted by 5D5F535B5B55524F3C0 link=1255337708/20#20 date=1256084679
                      Is it such a stupid term? Sure theres a wank factor with it, but its easier than saying such and such a roaster/cafe is a "quality focussed business that seeks to use ethically traded coffee from microlots whenever possible" Third wave is much more succinct. Even if theres a wank factor with it.

                      And declaring fourth wave would also seem a bit premature yet wouldnt it? I watched the St Ali segment on the morning show the other week and Sal was declaring coffee and food pairing as the fourth wave...cant really see it just yet myself. Not that food pairing is wrong, I just dont see it as another "wave"
                      Actually "third wave" isnt more succinct. The term refers to the coffee industry in America, not Australia. There have not been two waves here, it doesnt make sense.

                      “The first wave of American coffee culture was probably the 19th-century surge that put Folgers on every table, and the second was the proliferation, starting in the 1960s at Peet’s and moving smartly through the Starbucks grande decaf latte, of espresso drinks and regionally labeled coffee. We are now in the third wave of coffee connoisseurship, where beans are sourced from farms instead of countries, roasting is about bringing out rather than incinerating the unique characteristics of each bean, and the flavor is clean and hard and pure."

                      While this isnt the only definition of the Third Wave - all definitions before the lazy journalism of The Age used a similar layout - Folgers then Starbucks then Nick Cho!

                      Perhaps someone could explain to me how this term is relevant to Melbournes coffee scene?

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                      • #26
                        Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                        Jason,

                        Very interested in your opinion and knowledge. Considering what youre doing in Melbourne is not all that dissimilar to the third wavers in the States, isnt the term still relevant, even if our coffee histories are slightly different?

                        If not, how would you sum up succinctly what youre about? The problem I find when describing to people is that if you say its Specialty Coffee, well everyone, even Starbucks claims they do specialty. Gourmet sounds super wanky. Direct trade is mistaken as Fair Trade (which has its own inherent problems when you tell them fair trade is unfair) and being a coffeesnob, well, youre just fussy and everyone else is normal.

                        Really, what I understand third wave to be, is direct trade where possible, or at least traceability of the beans. Celebrating the individual flavours found in those Single Origins and taking care and interest in every stage to the cup. That seems to describe a lot of the better coffee establishments in Melbourne to me.

                        -ACog

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                        • #27
                          Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                          Andrew,

                          Sorry to single you out like that! I did mean to address everyone, not just you of course!

                          The problem I have with the term is that it refers to a movement (hence the wave) of cafes taking a new approach to the popular approach. Peets, who started roasting in house, offering fresh roasted coffee, was a new and different approach to instant coffee people were accustomed too. And then (for example) Murky Coffee started focussing on the origin of the coffee, and promoting that rather than a brand.

                          Promoting a certain coffee roaster as "third wave" kinda puts them back to 2001-2002 in America. Thats almost 8 years ago that this stuff was new news. I really dont think the term is relevant to specialty coffee roasters in melbourne.

                          And in terms of what we (yes, disclosure, I roast coffee in Melbourne) call ourselves? Specialty coffee roaster and retailer. Specialty coffee is define (by the SCAA) as coffee that cups 80 points or above. And Im okay with that definition.

                          Again, sorry to make it sound like I was singling you out!

                          Cheers, Jason


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                          • #28
                            Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                            I didnt feel singled out. My response was out of genuine interest, not offence.

                            The thing is, I understand that the definition the SCAA gives is meaningful (currently boring myself with Ted Lingles cuppers handbook), but to the average Joe bloe drinking coffee, 80 points of what? Is that like 5 stars? They have no understanding that it means its been cupped (you did what?!) and evaluated to be of a particular standard.

                            A wanky term, even if it has little relevance to where the industry is in Australia gives Joe public some understanding that this is different to any other retailer who has hessian bags adorning the walls and a roaster sitting idle in the shop front. I know of two such places in Melbourne, but I wouldnt pay a cent for what they call coffee.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                              Do you really think that people would understand the term "Third Wave" more easily than "Specialty"? Im not sure.

                              I do know that if I see a restaurant with Three Michilin stars I am impressed, or if I see a restaurant in Melbourne with Three Hats, even though they are abstract terms they mean something. A score of 80+ in cupping does have a measurable meaning (even if equivalent ratings from different countries are sometimes debated) and it can be determined very quickly if the term is being misused.

                              If someone asks me "Yeah sure mate, but 80 points of what?", I can tell them very easily and clearly.

                              But since the term "third wave" has been bounced around, used (mostly incorrectly) to mean just about anything, I am very reluctant to use it as a tool to help people understand specialty coffee. And when they do ask "Yeah sure mate, but what does that even mean?", it will be difficult to explain that we used the term to draw similarities between cafes in America that pushed boundaries of quality back in 2002, and cafes here in Melbourne 2009.

                              See what I mean?

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                              • #30
                                Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

                                I vote the next wave is called the Doug wave of coffee. Everyone else has something named after them, I want a slice of the fame pie ;D

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