Would you rather not know?

[Dennis Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dennis]

I noticed a comment in the following thread

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1267381630/9#9

And this set me wondering...

Would you rather not know if a product isnt deemed to be good, by an industry professional, even if an explanation for the reasoning is provided?

There seems to be a culture where stating negatives is frowned upon, and has certainly been shown to be counter productive when it comes to promoting brand loyalty. This type of thinking seems a little strange to me, as I would rather know what might be good as well as bad about any product I might buy.

What are your feelings towards this?

[Coffee2Di4 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Coffee2Di4]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Hi Den

Thats why I put "(or constructive)" in my note. I can appreciate it when a rival puts constructive criticism into any replies they put and make it worthwhile, but when its a "dump and burn" with no explanation or reasoning to back it up, so to speak, it just feels to me as if its doing it for the sake of putting down the opposition.

Nothing Ive read lately has been like that, but I have seen it in the past - in fact most of the Sponsors I frequent are very good with not doing this sort of thing, which is why I continue to deal with them (you are a case in point!)

I have had one run in with someone when I had to tell them to butt out because they were adding nothing constructive and were just being outright derogative, and I did speak up and let them know and they duly backed out of the thread, and one time in 18 months is a damn good track record.

I definitely want Industry Professionals commenting on things and giving their perspective, as long as politics dont come into play (well, too much, anyway)...I guess thats why I love this site as opposed to some others I frequent (dancing ones, in particular) - were all adults in here and behave like adults...well, most of the times: I have my moments!!!



Cheers
Di

[WSullivan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close WSullivan]

Re: Would you rather not know?

I agree with negative/positive feedback in an open forum between forum members. It what sorts the good stuff from the bad.

What gets my goat is when sponsors jump in, take over the thread and saturate it with slander, and i know, this is a VERY VERY rare occurrence, however if sponsors want to get into this, then go for it.....privately, there are a number of mediums that are available for this, email, fax, msn or even good ol face to face conversation, but not here. All it ends up doing is lowering consumer confidence with the product and the sponsor, its unprofessional and pathetic.

We don’t hang around this forum to hear one sponsor rubbish another just because they haven’t utilised their services, a recent example was in relation to barista training.......I’m guessing all sponsors pay their way for sponsorship, and i would also imagine they would all pay the same, is it fair to have a competitor talk down or rubbish your business in front of 10 000 potential clients? there are laws against that......for a reason.

I personally have a very shortlist of sponsors whom I would avoid using for this reason. And that’s my call......I’m the customer.

There are more than enough non sponsor experienced members to here offer their opinions on equipment and services.

Ill add that this forum has the some of the best non profit motivated sponsors around.....some other forums I have encountered are out of control with sale motivated online arguments.

For this I say [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]well done CS sponsors! [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

[Thundergod Sleep is overrated Find all posts View Profile Close Thundergod]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Would you rather not know if a product isnt deemed to be good, by an industry professional, even if an explanation for the reasoning is provided?

Of course not.

There seems to be a culture where stating negatives is frowned upon

I hope not.
Nothings perfect so stating the negatives is as legitimate as stating the positives.

Providing, as others have said, that the information is objective and backed up, I see it as a good thing (both positive and negative comments).

[TC . Find all posts View Profile Close TC]

Re: Would you rather not know?

I frequently concentrate on the negatives of the products we sell, especially in espresso machines as I am pretty certain that nobody has made a perfect one yet!

When we receive a call, I explain what I like and dont like about the machine and the client can then decide whether these issues are of concern or not. There are brands that we choose not to sell as the features/cost/performance balance is not right in my opinion.

If I havent seen a machine, I say so and if I have, but we dont sell it, I explain why. Frequently, its because its not much chop- even though the profit margin may be excellent. Its about happy campers. The littlish e-61 HX machine with the plakky sides was a good example. I thought it was absolute rubbish and would not have sold it at $50.

Bottom line, is that every sponsor will balance a whole heap of factors when setting a range and hopefully experience factors in to create a good outcome for the customer who chooses a machine.

We see here that most are happy with their machine and I agree that pretty much everything sold by sponsors will do the job. The key factor is that a CSer may trial/use only one or two machines and if it makes a coffee at home, most will wax lyrical. That doesnt change my opinion if its a poor machine or badly laid out. Were the ones who work on them.

An example: Machine needs new element as it was used as an urn and the element was cooked. Importer very generously provides a replacement under warranty (even though he didnt have to). The machine has an inspection plate, but still we have to remove the boiler and use hammer and chisel to crack the element out over 3+ hours. Outcome = satisfactory machine delisted. If the owner had to pay for the work it would have been $500....There are plenty of happy CSers who own this machine.

I see new machines pretty much every month and there is a long list of poor machines which got rejected. If I dont like it, you will know why when we discuss it on the phone. Its what you pay me for!

If I can give just a little advice guys, thats if its a 110V US machine reveiew you are reading, its irrelevant to us. If its imported by some other bloke in another country, it will have little in common with our stuff. VBM in NZ v VBM in Australia is the perfect example....

Chris

[Koffee_Kosmo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Koffee_Kosmo]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Providing, as others have said, that the information is objective and backed up, I see it as a good thing (both positive and negative comments).

(excluding the silly point system from Choice ;D )

As long as both forms of comment are factual


I personally hate reviews on TV or Newspaper that just parrot the manufacturers press release or advertised claims

KK

[beanflying Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close beanflying]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Generally this forum works as well or better than most at self policing positives or negatives. Usual thing like all web forums have the rubbish filter ON at all times.

There is as was mentioned by Sully a few times where some tit for tat Sponsor to Sponsor stuff should go elsewhere but normally that is not to much of a problem. This forum wouldnt exist (not ignoring Andy ) without the sponsors or be as lively a place to inhabit.

[Epic76 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Epic76]

Re: Would you rather not know?

If its honest and constructive, why cant the criticism be negative? Any post or review that excludes the negative or exudes the positive is unbalanced and thus to be frank, a lie.

Lets save political correctness for Kevin & Tony, keeping CS the positive, open and constructive forum its evolved into.

[flynnaus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close flynnaus]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Although not directly on-topic and not directed at anyone in particular, I thought it was an appropriate place to post this:

Keep this in mind the next time you are about to repeat a rumour or spread gossip:

In ancient Greece (469 - 399 BC), Socrates was widely lauded for his wisdom.
One day an acquaintance ran up to him excitedly and said, "Socrates, do you know what I just heard about Diogenes?"
"Wait a moment," Socrates replied, "Before you tell me Id like you to pass a little test. Its called the Triple Filter Test."
Triple filter?" asked the acquaintance
"Thats right," Socrates continued, "Before you talk to me about Diogenes lets take a moment to filter what youre going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"
"No," the man said, "Actually I just heard about it."
"All right," said Socrates, "So you dont really know if its true or not. Now lets try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about Diogenes something good?"
"No, on the contrary...""So," Socrates continued, "You want to tell me something about Diogenes that may be bad, even though youre not certain its true?"
The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued, "You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter, the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about Diogenes going to be useful to me?"
"No, not really."
"Well," concluded Socrates, "If what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me or anyone at all?"
The man was bewildered and ashamed.

This is an example of why Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem.

It also explains why Socrates never found out that Diogenes was having an affair with his wife.

[Thundergod Sleep is overrated Find all posts View Profile Close Thundergod]

Re: Would you rather not know?

It also explains why Socrates never found out that Diogenes was having an affair with his wife.

IMO it would have been useful information.

[flynnaus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close flynnaus]

Re: Would you rather not know?

IMO it would have been useful information.

Yes, Im sure Socrates would have loved the irony of it, had he found out. :-/

[3fun Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close 3fun]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Something about the time period doesnt seem right when Socrates died, Diogenes would have been between 5-13, and where he lived and worked as a banker in Sinope, would that not have been a really long way to travel to tell Socrates a child is cheating on his wife?

[flynnaus Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close flynnaus]

Re: Would you rather not know?

Something about the time period doesnt seem right

Humour of the last quip aside, 3FUN, good point - ignore the message and concentrate on the errata.

Well heres how I suggest you handle the inconsistency: repost my article and substitute a name that would be more chronologically correct