Understanding Triple Shots

[oton]

Hi there,

I would like to understand some things about triple shots or, better said, a double shot with the amount of a triple. :

- The more I increase the amount of coffee in the basket, more sourness (bad) I get. Im talking about from 15gr to 21. I thought that this is logical, because there is more coffee to extract for the same volume (a double) so the shot is underextracted, therefore I cant understand how you can pull good shots... :-?

Tips please. Thanks.

[A_M]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

I would like to understand some things about triple shots or, better said, a double shot with the amount of a triple.  

WTF... Why the Face ?

To me a;

A: Single is a single
B: Double is a double
C: Triple is a Triple
D: Quad is four

If some one gave me a "triple" and just used a double basket and ran for 90Sec I would be pissed >

[oton]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

Hehe. Because Im talking about pour 60ml (or a double ristretto) with 21gr instead of 90ml. No time change.

[Thundergod]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

Because the water is travelling through more coffee it should take longer to pour; hence only 60ml in the same time.

However, if you think it tastes under extracted then maybe you should make the grind finer to give it more time to extract.

OR . . . maybe the sourness has to do with the water temperature.

[Luke_G]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

From memory the La Spaz has 54mm baskets right?

If thats the case like my DC then what had to do when i got my 21g basket is grind a little bit courser and overdose it more than the 16g basket and tamp a lot heavier.

Owning the gear you do...i cant imagine you would buy or roast bad coffee so the other thing i can think of is maybe its the type your using?...is it a Kenyan or Zambian? or even a lightly roasted Indo?

I must admit...i dont like using my triple basket...the taste quality just is not near the shots i can pull from my double.

[askthecoffeeguy]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

we use triple baskets at my work for every coffee that we make and run beautiful double ristretto shots over 50secs - but then again the machine has been set up with over sized heat exchangers and flow restrictors just for this purpose - so I would say that they type of equipment you are using will determine your ability to run the shot for longer

interestingly we even inserted 0.6m flow restrictors at the group head of our second (spare) machine - an old Azkoyen Bravo which we stripped back and modded - and I would say that the Azkoyen pulls better espresso shots than the much more highly speckd BFC Synchro!

[oton]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

Thanks for the answers guys.

Id like to know whats the theory behind the triple shots. I mean:

Taking reference the italian standars of 7gr, 14gr and 21gr

We have:

Single shot - 7 gr - 25 sec - 30ml
Double shot - 14gr - 25sec - 60ml
Triple shot - 21gr - 25 sec? - But NOT 90ml; 60ml, the size of a double.

And thats were I see the problem. If we cut the brew at 60ml, we would not doing an underextracted shot? :-?

From memory the La Spaz has 54mm baskets right?

If thats the case like my DC then what had to do when i got my 21g basket is grind a little bit courser and overdose it more than the 16g basket and tamp a lot heavier.

Owning the gear you do...i cant imagine you would buy or roast bad coffee so the other thing i can think of is maybe its the type your using?...is it a Kenyan orZambian? or even a lightly roasted Indo?

I must admit...i dont like using my triple basket...the taste quality just is not near the shots i can pull from my double.

Its 53mm.

The type of bean affect the sourness yes, but overall I usually get sour shots. I use different beans... bolivia, colombia, sulawesi, etc.

we use triple baskets at my work for every coffee that we make and run beautiful double ristretto shots over 50secs - but then again the machine has been set up with over sized heat exchangers and flow restrictors just for this purpose - so I would say that they type of equipment you are using will determine your ability to run the shot for longer

I have 6 sec. of mechanical preinfusion, so are you saying that we could try to pull a 56 sec. triple shot??

Im looking some recommendations of a roaster for their coffees. He say:

Dose: 21-22g
Brew Temperature: 202°F/94.5°C
Brew Time: 28s-33s
Total Volume: approx. 50ml
Brew Ratio: 60-70%

On a Synesso Hydra.

What do you think, guys?

Thanks for all.

[askthecoffeeguy]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

the idea as I understand it is to run a double extraction from a triple shot as the basis for you coffees - to me this means a 30ml pour for a standard caffe latte and running the shot to a max 45ml for a 8oz takeaway coffee

but times and mls are deceptive it also depends upon the beans that youre using, the age of the roast (ideally no more than two weeks post roast), the consistency of the grind, how much youre packing - and perhaps most importantly how the coffee is pouring - I tend to watch the shot and stop the extraction short if it starts to blond and / or dump the shot and start again from scratch if its running too fast or too slow

not sure what a Synesso Hydra has to do with it unless you own the machine as Im sure that each machine is set up differently according to manufacturer specifications - then ideally it is modified to your own individual needs...

[GregWormald]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

Oton,

My "standard" shot is 20 grams of grounds, extracting about 20-25 ml of coffee in about 20 seconds.
I gauge the stopping time by how pale the extraction is getting rather than the time or the volume. Im aiming for the above times/volumes but going by what I know gives me a great coffee in the cup.
IMO the whole single/double/triple thing is a waste of time. Im dosing for the machine/basket combination and extracting for the taste I want. Everything else is secondary.

Greg

[Koffee_Kosmo]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

Im dosing for the machine/basket combination and extracting for the taste I want. Everything else is secondary.

Thats what I do as well Greg
I work within my machines tolerances
And my taste buds are the winners

I however dont pull triple shots any more

KK

[Thundergod]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

I also use about 20g in my "double" basket.
I havent measured how many grams fit in my "triple".

[greenman]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

20g here too in my Synesso double (any more and my pf wont lock in), I watch the shot and stop pour at first sign of blonding

[acoggins]

Re: Understanding Triple Shots

I think something people dont contemplate about updosing and triple shots is that the more coffee you stuff in to the basket, the lower the effective brew temperature is. Note, I do not mean the temperature the water comes out of the shower head, but the temperature at which the water passing through the bed of coffee is. This is because the coffee soaks up some of that temperature as it percolates. This would possibly translate in to shots with sour overtones

Imagine this: a massive shot that contained 60 grams of coffee, supposing someone made a basket that deep, isnt going to just give you 90 mls of espresso in 90 seconds or so. There are diminishing returns. The waster passing through that puck is going to cool as it travels down. You would probably also find that the flow rate from the group head wouldnt be sufficient to support such a massive amount of espresso based percolation.

Things dont just keep scaling up. Scott Raos book The Professional Baristas handbook does a good job of addressing this very issue.

Personally Id be inclined to dose down a little more, perhaps even dare to run the shot a little longer. You never know, you might like it.