why no dripping honey extraction??

[Cooper69S Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cooper69S]

Gday all
hoping someone might be able to help me to improve my coffee...  

For a long time, Ive been unable to achieve the dripping honey effect on my espresso extraction, and so I dont get that thick oily texture/mouthfeel.  I havent been overly concerned because I do get good tasting sweet shots - usually 20-25ml in 20-25 seconds + ~8-9 seconds preinfusion but theyre lacking in texture and the taste, while good, is noticeably less good than a shot made with the same (Five Senses) beans at the cafe where I buy them (he does have a Synesso though).  Same beans on his machine extract beautifully and taste fantastic, but mine always gives a thin looking pour.   I normally buy beans 1kg at a time within a week of roasting and use them up in 2.5 to 3 weeks.

So far Ive played with dosing.  Digital kitchen scales told me I was up dosing a bit much - used to dose to a mound, 2 taps and level off but that was apparently about 22g, so Ive been going 1 tap which is consistenly about 18g, but that didnt seem to help matters.  Tried grinding finer and tamping lighter but that didnt seem to have much effect either.  It extracts at about 9.5 bar according to the gauge.

I checked the temperature - CS DMM with the tc looped over the top of the basket says Im around 91-94 deg C.  (after idling a while ~150ml/15s cooling flush until end of water-dance, first shot ~94C, subsequent shots usually a bit cooler 91-92C, probably thanks to my thermosyphon restrictor).  I seem to recall that when I first installed the restrictor, that the shots seemed thinner afterwards, but thought at the time that it was probably my imagination.  is there any way that could affect it?

A mate of mine has a similar machine and I was discussing this dilemma with him.  he told me that he tried beans from a different roaster with much better results.  I havent tried that yet since I figured these beans should be fine since theyre good on the Synesso.  Ive been trying different SOs and blends.  Enjoying the different tastes but the extraction is always about the same.  crema is relatively thin too.  Its ok with the smaller surface area in my little 90ml espresso/piccolo cups, but in the 200ml flat white cups by the time I pour in the milk the crema has usually dissipated a fair bit - only covering half the surface - same on all the blends/origins Ive used lately.  The cups are always preheated with the water from the cooling flush.

Im thinking I could (should?) buy or make a naked group handle in the next coupla weeks to see if that shows up any technique issues.

any other suggestions?

thanks
Geoff

[A_M Guest Find all posts View Profile Close A_M]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Gday all
hoping someone might be able to help me to improve my coffee...  

For a long time, Ive been unable to achieve the dripping honey effect on my espresso extraction, and so I dont get that thick oily texture/mouthfeel.  I havent been overly concerned because I do get good tasting sweet shots - usually 20-25ml in 20-25 seconds + ~8-9 seconds preinfusion but theyre lacking in texture and the taste, while good, is noticeably less good than a shot made with the same (Five Senses) beans at the cafe where I buy them (he does have a Synesso though).  Same beans on his machine extract beautifully and taste fantastic, but mine always gives a thin looking pour.   I normally buy beans 1kg at a time within a week of roasting and use them up in 2.5 to 3 weeks.

So far Ive played with dosing.  Digital kitchen scales told me I was up dosing a bit much - used to dose to a mound, 2 taps and level off but that was apparently about 22g, so Ive been going 1 tap which is consistenly about 18g, but that didnt seem to help matters.  Tried grinding finer and tamping lighter but that didnt seem to have much effect either.  It extracts at about 9.5 bar according to the gauge.

I checked the temperature - CS DMM with the tc looped over the top of the basket says Im around 91-94 deg C.  (after idling a while ~150ml/15s cooling flush until end of water-dance, first shot ~94C, subsequent shots usually a bit cooler 91-92C, probably thanks to my thermosyphon restrictor).  I seem to recall that when I first installed the restrictor, that the shots seemed thinner afterwards, but thought at the time that it was probably my imagination.  is there any way that could affect it?

A mate of mine has a similar machine and I was discussing this dilemma with him.  he told me that he tried beans from a different roaster with much better results.  I havent tried that yet since I figured these beans should be fine since theyre good on the Synesso.  Ive been trying different SOs and blends.  Enjoying the different tastes but the extraction is always about the same.  crema is relatively thin too.  Its ok with the smaller surface area in my little 90ml espresso/piccolo cups, but in the 200ml flat white cups by the time I pour in the milk the crema has usually dissipated a fair bit - only covering half the surface - same on all the blends/origins Ive used lately.  The cups are always preheated with the water from the cooling flush.

Im thinking I could (should?) buy or make a naked group handle in the next coupla weeks to see if that shows up any technique issues.

any other suggestions?

thanks
Geoff

In the first instance... Try different beans..

I will be at teh Vs next Wednesday morning as I have stiff to do. Should have some of my special blen aged and ready to use... If ya interested..

AM

[Ronin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Ronin]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

I will be at the Vs next Wednesday morning as I have stiff to do.Should have some of my special blen aged and ready to use... If ya interested..

Probably a bit far to come from Bunbury WA to Brisbane

[Cooper69S Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cooper69S]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

In the first instance... Try different beans..

yeah it might be time to try some CS browns - dont have many roaster options down here. have been thinking for ages about going a coretto setup too, but wanted to get good results first from good professionally roasted beans as a kind of benchmark to aim at...

I will be at the Vs next Wednesday morning as I have stiff to do.Should have some of my special blen aged and ready to use... If ya interested..

Probably a bit far to come from Bunbury WA to Brisbane

was going to say... I appreciate the offer, but didnt know where the Vs was. I remembered you were over here a few months back and was thinking that it may have been some place in Perth.

[Koffee_Kosmo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Koffee_Kosmo]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

dont have many roaster options down here.have been thinking for ages about going a coretto setup too, but wanted to get good results first from good professionally roasted beans as a kind of benchmark to aim at...

You should seriously consider a home roaster
Correto / KKTO ect

Then you will get results like this on my former machine
Home roasted beans used of course (Sumatra Blue)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkWjQnLJ6-E[/media]

KK

[Justin_Boyle Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Justin_Boyle]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Five senses would be regarded as one of the most premium roasters in western australia. If you just look through the cafe reviews in the WA section of this site you will notice that a lot of the good cafes use them. If I was buying beans a week old I would want to use them in 1.5-2 weeks though.

Im surprised you need to do much of a cooling flush with the the restrictor installed. I thought the idea of the restrictor was so you didnt need the flushes.

What is your current setup? Perhaps you have a grinder that is letting you down?

KK that conical grinder has to be helping you work your magic doesnt it?

[Cooper69S Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cooper69S]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Thanks all for the feedback so far. ordering some other beans today and see what happens.

You should seriously consider a home roaster
Correto / KKTO ect

Thanks KK Ive had a look at your design roaster a few times. weve got a turbo oven at home that never gets used so I thought about borrowing it for a roaster but since it was a gift from the mother-in-law I might get some resistance. Ive got an unused breadmaker too so looking at a coretto, although my wife is more keen on a proper roaster rather than a home-job. Im just wanting to weigh up the pros and cons before doing something. the cost difference means a coretto/kkto would happen a lot sooner.

Five senses would be regarded as one of the most premium roasters in western australia.If you just look through the cafe reviews in the WA section of this site you will notice that a lot of the good cafes use them.

I heard stories from one or two of the good Perth cafes that using bigger roasters due to increased popularity can negatively affect their quality - so theyre going to in-house roasting instead. Five Senses is considered to be the best local roaster though Im pretty sure, and the cafes that use them are among the best. partly why I thought that my issues with getting that slow thick drippy pour might be related to something other than the beans.

If I was buying beans a week old I would want to use them in 1.5-2 weeks though.

economics I suppose... postage from Five Senses to me is about $7 which would put the price up significantly especially if I was to buy smaller quantities. I get a good deal buying them (still sealed in the original 1kg bags) from a local cafe to save on the postage. I rarely have beans more than 4 weeks after roast so Ive been going with that for the price saving even if the quality trails off a bit in the last few days/week. The ones Im using now were roasted 1 week ago

Im surprised you need to do much of a cooling flush with the the restrictor installed.I thought the idea of the restrictor was so you didnt need the flushes.

its only a home-job restrictor (a fabricated copper washer with a ~2.8mm hole) and Im thinking about putting in a proper restrictor just because. I pulled the restrictor out yesterday, and raised the boiler fill probe approx 10mm, and the machine took 2 hours to come up to temp (according to the grouphead thermometer), so I dropped it back down about half that. The boiler fill thing was a result of a suggestion I had a while ago about cooling the machine down and Id never tried it - maybe a combination of putting the restrictor back in and adjusting the boiler level might do something. playing with the temp is a bit of an ongoing project that I work on every few months when I get a free sunday arvo... Id like to not have to do cooling flushes but for now they dont really bother me that much. I use the cooling flush water to preheat my cups so if I fix the flush issue it will upset my routine

What is your current setup?Perhaps you have a grinder that is letting you down?

10 month old Macap M4 grinder should be ok I reckon. I dont generally use the doser as a doser but more to break up clumps as its grinding. results look good to me... I helped a mate yesterday with a bit of training on their new sunbeam 6910/0480 setup and was reminded what a massive jump the Macap grinder is.

[Justin_Boyle Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Justin_Boyle]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Yeah the Macap should be fine for sure. Was your info in your sig when I asked the question. I hope not because I would feel like a fool asking.

[Cooper69S Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Cooper69S]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Was your info in your sig when I asked the question.I hope not because I would feel like a fool asking.

been there since January ;D

[Koffee_Kosmo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Koffee_Kosmo]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Thanks KK Ive had a look at your design roaster a few times.weve got a turbo oven at home that never gets used so I thought about borrowing it for a roaster but since it was a gift from the mother-in-law I might get some resistance.Ive got an unused breadmaker too so looking at a coretto, although my wife is more keen on a proper roaster rather than a home-job.Im just wanting to weigh up the pros and cons before doing something.the cost difference means a coretto/kkto would happen a lot sooner.

The turbo oven itself can be used for both
Cooking & Coffee roasting without any negative affects

KK

[Justin_Boyle Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Justin_Boyle]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

been there since JanuaryGrin

.................................................i ts monday alright

[bmawebb Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bmawebb]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Cooper, using a known roaster as a benchmark can be a little misleading too. We have a local roaster in Albany, who retails all over the south west, and I bought an Espresso Blend which was indicated on the bag to be the bees knees. I bought it on site, so it was roasted within the last week at the most.

The best I could get from it flavour wise was a fine mix if ash and dirt, with a good bitter after shot to make you squint a little. :-/ And this was supposed to be the top shelf stuff.

The biggest gripe with this coffee roasting business is that everything is so personal that the only way you can find the good stuff is to trial and error. Get your beans from here, then try there, then try a different blend, then roast your own, and when you find a good one, stick to it. I keep looking for that little bit more and heading back down the flavour hill again, only to have to backtrack and get back to where I was a few months ago.

Best of luck. Fine coffee is harder work than a fine woman.

[greenman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close greenman]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

Quote: "Best of luck. Fine coffee is harder work than a fine woman."Unquote

gotta agree with you big louie,  once besotted with her she is more and more demanding--"dont ya just love it!!"

[Dean_Bean Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dean_Bean]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

+1 for starting to roast your own. I agree with the idea of going to quality roasters as a way of controlling variables, I know I certainly did for a long time.

But, once you get over the learning curve, there is no better guarantee of quality and roast dates than doing your own, and your knowledge and understanding of coffee what happens during roasting will grow expontentially.

And hell, its bucketloads of fun! ;D

[Rocky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rocky]

Re: why no dripping honey extraction??

That video of KKs is SO intmidating. I feel I get some pretty good coffee out of my little machine but Ive never had a pour that looks like that. Maybe the first 10 seconds but never right to the end.
I am inclined to agree with others that it is good to put a significant number of top shelf beans through the grinder and machine as every bean is a different equation, and it all adds up to a learning experience. I will say that any differences I get in pours are always down to variations in grind & tamp. I have come to the conclusion that different machines have different characteristics which will only be changed by modifying the machine, and as I am not interested in going that route I am happy with what I get.